[MBTI General] NF and NT... drawn together like moth to flame

[Apollonian]

They are a partner, not a project.

This brings to mind that the dynamic may be strengthened by the tendency for unaware NT's undertaking the "Pygmalion Project" which David Keirsey talks about (trying to make your partner more like yourself).

I am a little cautious to be insisting upon people reading up on the MBTI when I first meet them, but the awareness of those personality dynamics does seem to forestall or at least alleviate a lot of these issues, including the Death Spiral.

 

[nightning]

What does everyone make of the so called "NT-NF Spiral of Death"?

I agree with you, much of it relates to INTs more than ENTs. But it certainly jives with my interpretation of things.

It's not a death spiral if both person knows where the other is coming from.

 

[Domino]

The so called "NT-NF Spiral of Death"

Honestly? It's garbage.

Utterly ridiculous. I don't recall any NT I ever got enmeshed with throwing ANY breaks on at any time. I'm with Cafe -- I was the cautious party being drawn in. In fact, I was the one being sized up, grabbed and taken on the death roll, not the other way around. [Note: I'm not complaining. Heh... I like a good death roll...] It was always very instinctive and mutually firing.

And as to "fooling" an NT with our "T"-ness, what the hell ever to that. My Ti may not be my foremost function, but it'll kick a damn door down. That's like supposing an NT has no intense feeling function. They do.

 

[miked277]

My Ti may not be my foremost function, but it'll kick a damn door down.

this is quotable :hi:

 

[armstrongvk12]

Honestly? It's garbage.

Utterly ridiculous. I don't recall any NT I ever got enmeshed with throwing ANY breaks on at any time. I'm with Cafe -- I was the cautious party being drawn in. In fact, I was the one being sized up, grabbed and taken on the death roll, not the other way around. [Note: I'm not complaining. Heh... I like a good death roll...] It was always very instinctive and mutually firing.

And as to "fooling" an NT with our "T"-ness, what the hell ever to that. My Ti may not be my foremost function, but it'll kick a damn door down. That's like supposing an NT has no intense feeling function. They do.

I agree with you! INFJs may not have Ti has the foremost function, but you still have the function. My INFJ has his JD....so he MUST have some Ti...or how could he be an attorney? I'm an NT...and we very much have an intense feeling function. I think that NTs....love hard.....and find it hard to let go.

 

[autumn]

It seems the common response is that there is an element of maturity which changes this dynamic for better (mature) or worse (immature). However, setting maturity aside, do you think that there is something like this going on in the interaction of NF to NT personalities? Is it inevitable? Is there a way to circumvent or forestall this "Death Spiral"?

I do think you are right that maturity or immaturity would play a role here, or in any relationship. As for the question of whether such a phenomenon is inevitable in any NT/NF romantic relationship, I would say no, it is not inevitable. The description that you quoted may perhaps be a template for a certain type of less-than-ideal NT/NF romantic relationship, but is certainly not the universal template for all NT/NF relationships, healthy or otherwise. That is to say, there are other ways that an NT/NF relationship can malfunction, and there are also plenty of very harmonious NT/NF relationships that really don't have this difficulty.

Certainly temperament has a lot to do with whether a relationship will work, and what its dynamics will likely be, but there are of course many other very important factors that enter into the equation too, that have little to do with temperament or MBTI type. And because your soul mate or a dear friend of yours may be a certain type, it doesn't mean that any person of the same type could just have easily been your soul mate or your dear friend. It's a very individual thing.

 

[sakuraba]

Screw that death spiral theory

It's never been true for me and Ive had a few relationships with NFs.

 

[Domino]

I agree with you! INFJs may not have Ti has the foremost function, but you still have the function. My INFJ has his JD....so he MUST have some Ti...or how could he be an attorney? I'm an NT...and we very much have an intense feeling function. I think that NTs....love hard.....and find it hard to let go.

Very good way of putting it. Point of fact, if anyone has told me they'd love me forever, it was an NT, and it wasn't at all drippy or histrionic or NF-mindcontrol-made-me-say-it. NTs are intense and loyal in their way, just as NFs are. Just a different spin.

Screw that death spiral theory

Sakuraba has spoken. The Death Spiral Theory must... eh... die!

Seriously, it sounds more than a little one-sided and paranoid, like one group has the upper hand logically while the other is working to emotionally cling and undermine it. Give me a break.

 

[cafe]

Sakuraba has spoken. The Death Spiral Theory must... eh... die!

Seriously, it sounds more than a little one-sided and paranoid, like one group has the upper hand logically while the other is working to emotionally cling and undermine it. Give me a break.

Actually, I think that kind of death spiral can happen between any two types. It's just an imbalance of power. The least interested party has more power. The more interested party senses it and reacts by giving their partner more power. If the cycle isn't stopped, eventually one partner will have all the power and lose all respect for the other partner.

If the more interested partner can keep a cool head and not start handing the less interested partner all their power, balance can often be regained. The problem is that in this case, our instinctive behavior tends to be way, way off, so it's hard to do the smart thing.

I think these power imbalances are a pretty common phenomenon. They will happen multiple times throughout the course of a long relationship and the power will normally not always rest with the same partner in every instance.

The thing that separates the healthy from the unhealthy is how the less powerful partner reacts to the imbalance. If they have the self-confidence and the trust in their partner to keep a cool head, it is going to balance out. If not, things will get screwed up, even if the couple stays together.

 

[Domino]

The least interested party has more power.

Pretty much sums it all up, really. Do you think that Introverted NTs are more, shall I say, worried about the idea of losing their autonomy? More so than Introverted NFs? I'm just contemplating why someone would even bother to come up with a very specifically labeled "death spiral" theory if not to serve/justify their own bad experiences.

As to dynamic, I've been in plenty of unpleasant entanglements with unhealthy NTs, but I'd never apply "death spiral" to the whole category of people anymore than I'd say "All white guys from Peducah eat with their mouths open".

 

[cafe]

Pretty much sums it all up, really. Do you think that Introverted NTs are more, shall I say, worried about the idea of losing their autonomy? More so than Introverted NFs? I'm just contemplating why someone would even bother to come up with a very specifically labeled "death spiral" theory if not to serve/justify their own bad experiences.

As to dynamic, I've been in plenty of unpleasant entanglements with unhealthy NTs, but I'd never apply "death spiral" to the whole category of people anymore than I'd say "All white guys from Peducah eat with their mouths open".

I think they do like autonomy and they also have a high need for space which can give a false appearance of being less interested and trigger the power giving phenomenon in their partner.

I don't know why someone would come up with that specific theory unless they are basically ignorant of relationship dynamics and think something pretty normal is only specific to the few cases they've observed. So yeah, what you said.

 

[Economica]

What does everyone make of the so called "NT-NF Spiral of Death"?

I think it has descriptive merit for the subset of NT/NF relationships where the NT is emotionally underdeveloped and/or the NF has an anxious attachment style. Plenty of NT/NF relationships, including my own, don't fall into that subset and thus are not subject to the Death Spiral.

Incidentally, I think the DS description gives away that the NT author falls into the former category and thus qualifies for this demotivational poster:

View attachment 1100

 

[Domino]

Demotivation posters are always appropriate! haha!

 

[Sandy]

I think it has descriptive merit for the subset of NT/NF relationships where the NT is emotionally underdeveloped and/or the NF has an anxious attachment style. Plenty of NT/NF relationships, including my own, don't fall into that subset and thus are not subject to the Death Spiral.

Incidentally, I think the DS description gives away that the NT author falls into the former category and thus qualifies for this demotivational poster:

View attachment 1100

That is so funny (and so true!)

 

[sakuraba]

Very good way of putting it. Point of fact, if anyone has told me they'd love me forever, it was an NT, and it wasn't at all drippy or histrionic or NF-mindcontrol-made-me-say-it. NTs are intense and loyal in their way, just as NFs are. Just a different spin.

.

agree 100%, thanks for noticing

 

[Apollonian]

I think they do like autonomy and they also have a high need for space which can give a false appearance of being less interested and trigger the power giving phenomenon in their partner.

I am fascinated by this. First, it is true that autonomy is a strong driving factor at least among INTJs. What is this 'power'? Does one have power over the other because the other desires something from the one? In other words, if someone has an interest in someone, does that mean they are taking a sort of risk in order to try and get what they want? Then, the object of their interest has the power to confirm or deny their hopes?

This seems simple enough in my rational mind. However, I can't help sensing that I am missing something which does not fit into the equations of logical theory. What am I missing? How does one exert, misuse, or properly handle such power? How does one abdicate such power in favor of balance (on either side of the 'interest' scale)?

Another dynamic that I see going on is that in some relationships attraction is almost immediate while in others it creeps up slowly until it reaches critical emotional mass, so to speak. In the former, I have found that it may be easy for imbalances to form since both individuals don't know each other well. In the latter, I imagine it causes a sort of dilemma of "should we remain good friends" (I recently saw that film Emma which presents a good example in the advances of Mr. Knightly to Emma after being friendly confidants for some time).

PS - (Romantically speaking, I really don't know what I would do without Jane Austen! She is a guiding light to an otherwise oblivious INTJ despite encouraging my anachronism)

 

[armstrongvk12]

Another dynamic that I see going on is that in some relationships attraction is almost immediate while in others it creeps up slowly until it reaches critical emotional mass, so to speak. In the former, I have found that it may be easy for imbalances to form since both individuals don't know each other well. In the latter, I imagine it causes a sort of dilemma of "should we remain good friends" (I recently saw that film Emma which presents a good example in the advances of Mr. Knightly to Emma after being friendly confidants for some time).

I agree with your observations. Immediate attraction is really not much more than sexual attraction...because you really don't know the other person. This is why many times...a relationship like this....fizzles out...when attraction does as well. The second type of relationship that you described is based on friendship for the most part....and the reason that the relationship does not involve "power" struggles. Because who would be friends with someone you had power stuggles with?? In terms of dilemmas....if you began as friends...you can usually take the relationship back to that (if necessary)...assuming that neither person does anything inappropriate (i.e. cheating, lying, etc...). In other words...treat the person the same way that you would....if you were still just friends.

 

[allie bug]

i love the NF/NTdynamic. i can throw every random idea-theory-observation out there, and then my NT organizes it into a nice little conclusion for me.

I imagine it causes a sort of dilemma of "should we remain good friends"

that part does/did suck tremendously. how are you supposed to explain that something that you laughed about as friends now bothers you since you started dating?

 

[armstrongvk12]

that part does/did suck tremendously. how are you supposed to explain that something that you laughed about as friends now bothers you since you started dating?

Probably best (at least with men) to just let it go....unless it is something REALLY strange....cause you tolerated it when you were just "friends."

 

[cafe]

I agree with your observations. Immediate attraction is really not much more than sexual attraction...because you really don't know the other person. This is why many times...a relationship like this....fizzles out...when attraction does as well. The second type of relationship that you described is based on friendship for the most part....and the reason that the relationship does not involve "power" struggles. Because who would be friends with someone you had power stuggles with?? In terms of dilemmas....if you began as friends...you can usually take the relationship back to that (if necessary)...assuming that neither person does anything inappropriate (i.e. cheating, lying, etc...). In other words...treat the person the same way that you would....if you were still just friends.

I don't know. The attraction was so strong between my NT and I that we were never just friends. We know each other pretty well now and I can safely call us the best of friends, but there is still an incredibly strong attraction despite the power struggles of the early stages of the relationship.