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  1. #81
    Senior Member Apollonian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    They are a partner, not a project.
    This brings to mind that the dynamic may be strengthened by the tendency for unaware NT's undertaking the "Pygmalion Project" which David Keirsey talks about (trying to make your partner more like yourself).

    I am a little cautious to be insisting upon people reading up on the MBTI when I first meet them, but the awareness of those personality dynamics does seem to forestall or at least alleviate a lot of these issues, including the Death Spiral.

  2. #82
    ish red no longer *sad* nightning's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Apollonian View Post
    What does everyone make of the so called "NT-NF Spiral of Death"?
    I agree with you, much of it relates to INTs more than ENTs. But it certainly jives with my interpretation of things.

    It's not a death spiral if both person knows where the other is coming from.

  3. #83
    The Black Knight Domino's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Apollonian View Post
    The so called "NT-NF Spiral of Death"
    Honestly? It's garbage.

    Utterly ridiculous. I don't recall any NT I ever got enmeshed with throwing ANY breaks on at any time. I'm with Cafe -- I was the cautious party being drawn in. In fact, I was the one being sized up, grabbed and taken on the death roll, not the other way around. [Note: I'm not complaining. Heh... I like a good death roll...] It was always very instinctive and mutually firing.

    And as to "fooling" an NT with our "T"-ness, what the hell ever to that. My Ti may not be my foremost function, but it'll kick a damn door down. That's like supposing an NT has no intense feeling function. They do.
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  4. #84
    Senior Member miked277's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PinkPiranha View Post
    My Ti may not be my foremost function, but it'll kick a damn door down.
    this is quotable

  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by PinkPiranha View Post
    Honestly? It's garbage.

    Utterly ridiculous. I don't recall any NT I ever got enmeshed with throwing ANY breaks on at any time. I'm with Cafe -- I was the cautious party being drawn in. In fact, I was the one being sized up, grabbed and taken on the death roll, not the other way around. [Note: I'm not complaining. Heh... I like a good death roll...] It was always very instinctive and mutually firing.

    And as to "fooling" an NT with our "T"-ness, what the hell ever to that. My Ti may not be my foremost function, but it'll kick a damn door down. That's like supposing an NT has no intense feeling function. They do.
    I agree with you! INFJs may not have Ti has the foremost function, but you still have the function. My INFJ has his JD....so he MUST have some Ti...or how could he be an attorney? I'm an NT...and we very much have an intense feeling function. I think that NTs....love hard.....and find it hard to let go.

  6. #86
    Senior Member autumn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Apollonian View Post

    It seems the common response is that there is an element of maturity which changes this dynamic for better (mature) or worse (immature). However, setting maturity aside, do you think that there is something like this going on in the interaction of NF to NT personalities? Is it inevitable? Is there a way to circumvent or forestall this "Death Spiral"?
    I do think you are right that maturity or immaturity would play a role here, or in any relationship. As for the question of whether such a phenomenon is inevitable in any NT/NF romantic relationship, I would say no, it is not inevitable. The description that you quoted may perhaps be a template for a certain type of less-than-ideal NT/NF romantic relationship, but is certainly not the universal template for all NT/NF relationships, healthy or otherwise. That is to say, there are other ways that an NT/NF relationship can malfunction, and there are also plenty of very harmonious NT/NF relationships that really don't have this difficulty.

    Certainly temperament has a lot to do with whether a relationship will work, and what its dynamics will likely be, but there are of course many other very important factors that enter into the equation too, that have little to do with temperament or MBTI type. And because your soul mate or a dear friend of yours may be a certain type, it doesn't mean that any person of the same type could just have easily been your soul mate or your dear friend. It's a very individual thing.

  7. #87
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    Screw that death spiral theory

    It's never been true for me and Ive had a few relationships with NFs.

  8. #88
    The Black Knight Domino's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by armstrongvk12 View Post
    I agree with you! INFJs may not have Ti has the foremost function, but you still have the function. My INFJ has his JD....so he MUST have some Ti...or how could he be an attorney? I'm an NT...and we very much have an intense feeling function. I think that NTs....love hard.....and find it hard to let go.
    Very good way of putting it. Point of fact, if anyone has told me they'd love me forever, it was an NT, and it wasn't at all drippy or histrionic or NF-mindcontrol-made-me-say-it. NTs are intense and loyal in their way, just as NFs are. Just a different spin.


    Quote Originally Posted by sakuraba View Post
    Screw that death spiral theory
    Sakuraba has spoken. The Death Spiral Theory must... eh... die!

    Seriously, it sounds more than a little one-sided and paranoid, like one group has the upper hand logically while the other is working to emotionally cling and undermine it. Give me a break.
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  9. #89
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PinkPiranha View Post
    Sakuraba has spoken. The Death Spiral Theory must... eh... die!

    Seriously, it sounds more than a little one-sided and paranoid, like one group has the upper hand logically while the other is working to emotionally cling and undermine it. Give me a break.
    Actually, I think that kind of death spiral can happen between any two types. It's just an imbalance of power. The least interested party has more power. The more interested party senses it and reacts by giving their partner more power. If the cycle isn't stopped, eventually one partner will have all the power and lose all respect for the other partner.

    If the more interested partner can keep a cool head and not start handing the less interested partner all their power, balance can often be regained. The problem is that in this case, our instinctive behavior tends to be way, way off, so it's hard to do the smart thing.

    I think these power imbalances are a pretty common phenomenon. They will happen multiple times throughout the course of a long relationship and the power will normally not always rest with the same partner in every instance.

    The thing that separates the healthy from the unhealthy is how the less powerful partner reacts to the imbalance. If they have the self-confidence and the trust in their partner to keep a cool head, it is going to balance out. If not, things will get screwed up, even if the couple stays together.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  10. #90
    The Black Knight Domino's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    The least interested party has more power.
    Pretty much sums it all up, really. Do you think that Introverted NTs are more, shall I say, worried about the idea of losing their autonomy? More so than Introverted NFs? I'm just contemplating why someone would even bother to come up with a very specifically labeled "death spiral" theory if not to serve/justify their own bad experiences.

    As to dynamic, I've been in plenty of unpleasant entanglements with unhealthy NTs, but I'd never apply "death spiral" to the whole category of people anymore than I'd say "All white guys from Peducah eat with their mouths open".
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