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  1. #91
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PinkPiranha View Post
    Pretty much sums it all up, really. Do you think that Introverted NTs are more, shall I say, worried about the idea of losing their autonomy? More so than Introverted NFs? I'm just contemplating why someone would even bother to come up with a very specifically labeled "death spiral" theory if not to serve/justify their own bad experiences.

    As to dynamic, I've been in plenty of unpleasant entanglements with unhealthy NTs, but I'd never apply "death spiral" to the whole category of people anymore than I'd say "All white guys from Peducah eat with their mouths open".
    I think they do like autonomy and they also have a high need for space which can give a false appearance of being less interested and trigger the power giving phenomenon in their partner.

    I don't know why someone would come up with that specific theory unless they are basically ignorant of relationship dynamics and think something pretty normal is only specific to the few cases they've observed. So yeah, what you said.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  2. #92
    Dhampyr Economica's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Apollonian View Post
    What does everyone make of the so called "NT-NF Spiral of Death"?
    I think it has descriptive merit for the subset of NT/NF relationships where the NT is emotionally underdeveloped and/or the NF has an anxious attachment style. Plenty of NT/NF relationships, including my own, don't fall into that subset and thus are not subject to the Death Spiral.

    Incidentally, I think the DS description gives away that the NT author falls into the former category and thus qualifies for this demotivational poster:

    dysfunction.jpg

  3. #93
    The Black Knight Domino's Avatar
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    Demotivation posters are always appropriate! haha!
    eNFJ 4w3 sx/so 468 tritype
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    RLUEI, Choleric/Melancholic
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    Researcher: VDI-P
    Dramatic>Sensitive>Serious

  4. #94
    Senior Member Sandy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Economica View Post
    I think it has descriptive merit for the subset of NT/NF relationships where the NT is emotionally underdeveloped and/or the NF has an anxious attachment style. Plenty of NT/NF relationships, including my own, don't fall into that subset and thus are not subject to the Death Spiral.

    Incidentally, I think the DS description gives away that the NT author falls into the former category and thus qualifies for this demotivational poster:

    dysfunction.jpg
    That is so funny (and so true!)
    -Sandy
    I - 75% N - 55% F - 55% P - 61%
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    There is love... in the red letters
    There is truth... in the red letters

  5. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by PinkPiranha View Post
    Very good way of putting it. Point of fact, if anyone has told me they'd love me forever, it was an NT, and it wasn't at all drippy or histrionic or NF-mindcontrol-made-me-say-it. NTs are intense and loyal in their way, just as NFs are. Just a different spin.

    .
    agree 100%, thanks for noticing

  6. #96
    Senior Member Apollonian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    I think they do like autonomy and they also have a high need for space which can give a false appearance of being less interested and trigger the power giving phenomenon in their partner.
    I am fascinated by this. First, it is true that autonomy is a strong driving factor at least among INTJs. What is this 'power'? Does one have power over the other because the other desires something from the one? In other words, if someone has an interest in someone, does that mean they are taking a sort of risk in order to try and get what they want? Then, the object of their interest has the power to confirm or deny their hopes?

    This seems simple enough in my rational mind. However, I can't help sensing that I am missing something which does not fit into the equations of logical theory. What am I missing? How does one exert, misuse, or properly handle such power? How does one abdicate such power in favor of balance (on either side of the 'interest' scale)?

    Another dynamic that I see going on is that in some relationships attraction is almost immediate while in others it creeps up slowly until it reaches critical emotional mass, so to speak. In the former, I have found that it may be easy for imbalances to form since both individuals don't know each other well. In the latter, I imagine it causes a sort of dilemma of "should we remain good friends" (I recently saw that film Emma which presents a good example in the advances of Mr. Knightly to Emma after being friendly confidants for some time).

    PS - (Romantically speaking, I really don't know what I would do without Jane Austen! She is a guiding light to an otherwise oblivious INTJ despite encouraging my anachronism)

  7. #97
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    Another dynamic that I see going on is that in some relationships attraction is almost immediate while in others it creeps up slowly until it reaches critical emotional mass, so to speak. In the former, I have found that it may be easy for imbalances to form since both individuals don't know each other well. In the latter, I imagine it causes a sort of dilemma of "should we remain good friends" (I recently saw that film Emma which presents a good example in the advances of Mr. Knightly to Emma after being friendly confidants for some time).
    I agree with your observations. Immediate attraction is really not much more than sexual attraction...because you really don't know the other person. This is why many times...a relationship like this....fizzles out...when attraction does as well. The second type of relationship that you described is based on friendship for the most part....and the reason that the relationship does not involve "power" struggles. Because who would be friends with someone you had power stuggles with?? In terms of dilemmas....if you began as friends...you can usually take the relationship back to that (if necessary)...assuming that neither person does anything inappropriate (i.e. cheating, lying, etc...). In other words...treat the person the same way that you would....if you were still just friends.

  8. #98
    Member allie bug's Avatar
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    i love the NF/NTdynamic. i can throw every random idea-theory-observation out there, and then my NT organizes it into a nice little conclusion for me.

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    I imagine it causes a sort of dilemma of "should we remain good friends" 
    that part does/did suck tremendously. how are you supposed to explain that something that you laughed about as friends now bothers you since you started dating?

  9. #99
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    that part does/did suck tremendously. how are you supposed to explain that something that you laughed about as friends now bothers you since you started dating?
    Probably best (at least with men) to just let it go....unless it is something REALLY strange....cause you tolerated it when you were just "friends."

  10. #100
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by armstrongvk12 View Post
    I agree with your observations. Immediate attraction is really not much more than sexual attraction...because you really don't know the other person. This is why many times...a relationship like this....fizzles out...when attraction does as well. The second type of relationship that you described is based on friendship for the most part....and the reason that the relationship does not involve "power" struggles. Because who would be friends with someone you had power stuggles with?? In terms of dilemmas....if you began as friends...you can usually take the relationship back to that (if necessary)...assuming that neither person does anything inappropriate (i.e. cheating, lying, etc...). In other words...treat the person the same way that you would....if you were still just friends.
    I don't know. The attraction was so strong between my NT and I that we were never just friends. We know each other pretty well now and I can safely call us the best of friends, but there is still an incredibly strong attraction despite the power struggles of the early stages of the relationship.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

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