[MBTI General] Are You Sick of Being an N in an S world?

[BlackCat]

Question to you: What if I, as an ISFP (and you knew my type) came to you (The OP) for advise about majors etc. I let it slip that I'm majoring in social work/sociology (one of those, that would be a topic of conversation). What would you say? That's a field that revolves around a lot of theory.

 

[Snow Turtle]

Upon reading this, I think of what one of my best friends (and an INFP, and a gay man) always says to me. "I'm sure there are some straight guys that have slept with other men. But, who you sleep with doesn't make you gay. It's who you fall in love with that makes you gay. Our sexual orientation is in our head."

Said in another way, there is a HUGE difference between an INFP who's trying to act like an ENTJ and an ENTJ.

Just because one random ISFP has a degree in philosophy (and kudos to them), doesn't negate the fact that getting a Ph.D. in philosophy means dedicating one's creative energies to everything that is not S.

Most sensors have one trait in common with them, which other intuitives sometimes might not share, and that is the whole seeking information that has practical relevance to their own lives. In that regard, it make sense that people who seek out information for the sake of information are more likely to be drawn to staying in the academic profession than it's peers.

There's other conclusions I could have drawn out first before jumping to the idea that it's because sensors don't like the academic environment. One would be that the field is already dominanted by intuitives, therefore generating the stereotype of the 'Insane/Clumsy/Weird Professor' thus pushing away a large amount of students. An example similar to this would be the whole 'Physics/Mathematics/Engineering dominated by the male society and Psychology/Biology containing a larger proportion of female students'. However all this suggests that there is a clear distinction between N-S and that other people can easily recognise it.

Another idea is the labels that are given out to individuals. You could argue that 'weird/different' is given out because people genuinely are, however at the same time, another person could argue that these label reinforce/exaggerate the differences in people causing them to self-identify as 'rather different to the norm'. This self-identification, while generating the feelings of isolating could potentially mean that people either a) Go to one extreme in trying to re-intergrate themselves or b) Likely to accept that they are just different.

It's possible those that have been outcasted or given a sense of isolation are more willing to be independant and not be afraid of devianting from the norm of society. Essentially, despite the whole 'Academics are sad people', it also creates the whole 'Geek Pride' which is seen alot on the internet culture. All these complaints about sensors not understanding theory, it's just another variation of the complaint I constantly see on the internet 'Most of society is just stupid and blindly doing things'.

 

[Saslou]

Well this is an interesting thread.

Please don't act like N's are hard done by. You have the same opportunities like everyone else, some have made it sound like some kind of disability or a godly like status .. Yayyyyy, you are 's'pecial

Personally, with some N's i have no communication problems whatsoever, we speak about Philosophy, psychology, life, politics etc. I am capable of having a deep debate. If however i am taking to an N and trying to find some kind of conclusion, it doesn't happen very often. Much to my frustration. Does this mean though that i didn't enjoy talking to someone with a different style, oh gosh, no. I don't want everyone to be like me (a Sensor) because it would be boring. How am i supposed to work on my weaknesses if i am not given the opportunity. It is all a matter of perception.

Just because i don't question why i do something and instead go with my gut instinct, doesn't mean what i am doing is wrong. I am happy to do it my way.
I always test as S, but because i can't be bothered to look into cognitive functions (to abstract for me), a friend who is into it has told me that i use my Ne or Ni (whichever it is) far more than i give myself credit for. I am just to busy living my life, trying not to over think things, to pay attention to my intuitive side.

Oh and if i was to open my own business i would definitely want an N as my business partner. I'll look at the here and now and they can be future focused. Sounds like a smart plan to me, got to keep all options open.

Lastly to the person who is proclaiming to be 100% Intuitive .. Are you a mass of pure energy or something? How do you live without your senses?
That must be a hard life

 

[purplesunset]

Lastly to the person who is proclaiming to be 100% Intuitive .. Are you a mass of pure energy or something? How do you live without your senses?
That must be a hard life

Being a pure intuitive is a rather adventurous life actually.

-- Cars come screeching to a halt whenever I cross the street with my head in the clouds ...literally looking up at the clouds, mind you, I have a penchant for them.

-- I walk right past acquaintances, and fail to notice unless I get a swift kick to the shin.

-- Walking more than two steps with liquid food in my hand will inevitably result in said liquid being spilled. If Sherlock were to inspect my carpet, they will tell the tale of spilled milk, spilled soup, spilled grape juice...

-- On Christmas eve, I am visited by the Ghosts of Stubbed Toes Past.

 

[Esoteric Wench]

Well yeah, the list of strategies for dealing with Ss makes them sound like retarded 8 year olds. It's kinda silly.

Now see, I don't agree with this at all. I've found it very useful. Very accurate and a sign of respect to S's that you are willing to tailor your N approach.

I think I'm going to start another thread called "The Proper Care and Feeding of Sensors: A Manual for Intuitives." This will not be an S bashing thread. It will be an honest and kind forum for S's to talk about how they would like N's to treat them.

<----- I love me some Sensors

 

[ChocolateMoose123]

What's an "S" world? Or an "N" world for that matter? This forum segregates the divide much more than the real world ever does.

 

[Jaguar]

What's an "S" world? Or an "N" world for that matter? This forum segregates the divide much more than the real world ever does.

Bravo.

 

[Totenkindly]

It's an arbitrary line that nonetheless seems to be grasped well enough.

Why hand out kudos for noting the obvious -- that all frameworks and boundaries are choices? That's a given, right? If it's a useful frame of reference for a discussion, we keep it; if not, we ditch it.

 

[Esoteric Wench]

The purpose of this thread was to evoke discussion among Ns about the trials and tribulations of dealing with Ss. I also asked Ns to share any tips on how to bridge the S/N communication gap. Often Ns don't understand / feel different from Ss. And since Ss make up about 80% of the population, I don't think it untoward to have a forum for discussing the unique challenges Ns sometimes face.

I have come to appreciate the Sensors in my life even more since I now better understand where they are coming from (thanks to MBTI theory). Much to my dismay, several Ss have said they feel like this thread is about S bashing which was never the intent. Which is why I started this thread:

• The Proper Care and Feeding of Sensors: A Manual by Sensors for Intuitives

There are undeniable and profound differences between Ss and Ns, but Sensors bring a lot to the table. This thread looks at these same issues from a different angle. The focus is on what Ns like about Sensors. And it asks for Ss to give Ns who want to improve their S/N interactions some suggestions.

 

[visaisahero]

This is just one of those things... how do you really know that these people are intuitives? How can you know that you aren't just labelling everyone you relate to an intuitive via confirmation bias? This happens a lot I've noticed, hell some people still think I'm an INFP.

You are right in saying that we shouldn't be generalizing- I'm not saying that all the people I relate to best are N-types and all the people I relate worst to are S-types. But there is most definitely a strong co-relation. It just so happens that I don't just label people, but I discuss MBTI's types and functions with them to If I had to give you a rough breakdown of all my close friends I spend a lot of time with and relate to, they are:

INFJ (girlfriend- obviously very close)
INTP (mentor, long time friend- very close)
ENFJ (late-night chit-chat buddy- very close)
ISTJ (close friend; been through thick and thin- but can't stand each other lol)
INFJ (close friend- can relate)
ENFP (close friend- can relate very much)
ENFJ (close friend- can relate)
ISTP (friend I see often- can relate)
INFP (friend I see often- can relate)
ESFJ (friend I see often- cannot really relate)
ESFP (bandmate/close friend- cannot really relate anymore)
ESFJ (bandmate/close friend- respect, can relate somewhat)

... most of my close friends are N-types, and this is not me typing them as such- if you're a close friend of mine you definitely know all about MBTI (Ne-dom, I can't help it). I do have several S-type friends who I am close to, but often more out of shared experience, trust and respect than out of any natural affinity of sorts.

 

[visaisahero]

What's an "S" world? Or an "N" world for that matter? This forum segregates the divide much more than the real world ever does.

You are right, of course. But do bear in mind that this forum is built upon a foundation of discussion and intellectual stimulation. An analogy- suppose S were to be represented by white, and N by black. You could argue that the world isn't black or white, but shades of grey- and you would be completely correct.

That doesn't, however, inherently invalidate discussion about the differences between black and white. The fact is, even in a chromatic world, some shades of grey are closer to black than others and some shades are closer to white- and if you observe that the world seems to be predominantly, say, light grey- then surely that is something that can be pondered about, and discussed.

The division is, of course, emphasized for the sake of discussion. You could do the same for the rich/poor divide, male/female divide, divisions based on religion, ethnicity... the list goes on.

Everybody should realise that you can never define an entire person based on one of their qualities, the same way you can never predict the movement of a solitary particle. But just as large quantities of randomly-moving particles may exhibit patterns (be they representing solid, liquid, gas or what-have-you), large quantities of complex people who share a particular quality may exhibit behavioral patterns as well. You might go so far as to imagine someone saying (perhaps half in-jest) "What's a solid, liquid, or gas? You people segregate the divide much more than the real world ever does," and they would be completely right.

That said, divisions for divisions' sake are pointless, and it's up to each individual (and perhaps all of us together as a community) to decide how much is useful and how much is not. Different people have different levels of interest and/or tolerance for this sort of thing. I for one, personally find it quite fascinating.

 

[Snow Turtle]

The purpose of this thread was to evoke discussion among Ns about the trials and tribulations of dealing with Ss. I also asked Ns to share any tips on how to bridge the S/N communication gap. Often Ns don't understand / feel different from Ss. And since Ss make up about 80% of the population, I don't think it untoward to have a forum for discussing the unique challenges Ns sometimes face.

I have come to appreciate the Sensors in my life even more since I now better understand where they are coming from (thanks to MBTI theory). Much to my dismay, several Ss have said they feel like this thread is about S bashing which was never the intent. Which is why I started this thread:

[B]

• The Proper Care and Feeding of Sensors: A Manual by Sensors for Intuitives

[/B]

There are undeniable and profound differences between Ss and Ns, Sensors bring a lot to the table. This thread looks at these same issues from a different angle. The focus is on what Ns like about Sensors. And it asks for Ss to give Ns who want to improve their S/N interactions some suggestions.

Hence the 'unintentional bashing' that we comment upon. You are encouraging generalisations and attempting to force us all into one category based off limited sample. Yes, it's true that there is a difference between sensing and intuition but does it really produce such a huge difference in terms of overall personality?

BlackCat mentioned earlier about the whole tendancy to engage in confirmation bias. Rather than giving an explanation for those who disagreed with your assessment on the reality of the situation, it just appears that you engaged in 'well... that's just one out of a hundred/it's not their natural field' when that statement hasn't even been proven to generalise to the population. How can it be false? You are operating on the basis that it's definitely true.

Overall most of the tone in this thread is just patronising, just like the countless other threads that I've seen on this forum in the past such as SF people aren't 'inferior' just more 'simple' to NFs and so fourth. No, I'd argue that it's not that we aren't more simple, but rather no real connection has been established. You probably won't like this statement at all, but I don't feel that you have grasped (at least me) or other sensors on this thread at all because of your preconceived notions of what it means to be a sensor.

We're talking about 80% of the population. There is going to be some huge variations between people when it comes to having an interest in academia and theory.

 

[visaisahero]

"Overall most of the tone in this thread is just patronising, just like the countless other threads that I've seen on this forum in the past such as SF people aren't 'inferior' just more 'simple' to NFs and so fourth."

I'm just playing Devil's Advocate here, but aren't you generalizing the N-type perception of S-types the same way you claim N-types have a generalized perception of S-types?

You say that you have seen "countless" threads by N-types about "inferior" S-types; an N-type could similarly cite "countless" experiences he/she has had with S-types that justified such a generalization.

No statement can EVER be proven to completely generalize ANY population. That's the problem of inductive reasoning, isn't it? Even if every single swan you encounter in your life is white, it does not mean that there are no black swans. People will always generalize as they please. Is it inherently a bad thing? I cannot say. It depends on the individual, the context, and so many other things.

 

[Snow Turtle]

"Overall most of the tone in this thread is just patronising, just like the countless other threads that I've seen on this forum in the past such as SF people aren't 'inferior' just more 'simple' to NFs and so fourth."

I'm just playing Devil's Advocate here, but aren't you generalizing the N-type perception of S-types the same way you claim N-types have a generalized perception of S-types?

You say that you have seen "countless" threads by N-types about "inferior" S-types; an N-type could similarly cite "countless" experiences he/she has had with S-types that justified such a generalization.

No statement can EVER be proven to completely generalize ANY population. That's the problem of inductive reasoning, isn't it? Even if every single swan you encounter in your life is white, it does not mean that there are no black swans. People will always generalize as they please. Is it inherently a bad thing? I cannot say. It depends on the individual, the context, and so many other things.

I've been on this forum for a while and I know that not all intuitives have this perception of sensors. So I'm not really making a generalisations on intuitives but rather I'm talking about specific individuals, in this case I'm arguing against the OPs perception. Perhaps I shouldn't have used the word countless, but I was refering to all the previous 'S vs N' threads I've battled on. One or two example that come straight to mind:

Distinguishing INFJ from ISFJ

NF Different Feeling from SF

Generalisations are fine, but if there are data that suggest otherwise, shouldn't one try and accommodate this new data rather than just rejecting it as a statistical anomalie. When there is an obvious flaw in the theory, shouldn't we be checking whether the premisis is true, and look at alternative theories that rather it being an N/S divide there might actually be a hidden variable in play?

Anyway, I'm not entirely sure why I keep coming back to recite my arguments when I know that it'll never end. Other sensors here seem to realise that it's a little pointless engaging in attempting to defend ourselves since there will always be something appearing in the future. I suppose being a sensor, there is more of an investment and incentive to look into these ideas regarding the difference between S/N since it's about defending myself.

 

[Cybin]

There is a bit of a patronizing tone in this thread, but it seems to me to be unintentional.

Certainly, though, I can't (and by the size of this thread, am not) be the only one who notices the large communication gap between people who prefer to look for abstract connections and those who prefer the real and tangible. We are talking about what aspects of our environment we see and understand. Regardless of the label, there are going to be people of one side, the other, and everywhere in between.

For myself, it would be silly to write off 's types' as inferior in any way. Why would I, when it's S types that have time and time again made me feel like I was the stupid one and an utter air head for being unable to notice obvious sensory changes or retain detailed information?

Even before I knew about MBTI, this communication gap was painfully obvious. I'e come a long way in being able to bridge it as well. The biggest difference I've found, and it hit me like a brick one day conversing with my ESFJ mother, was that I get frustrated because I don't feel S types get to the point (generally speaking) when the truth is the point is in the details. I felt they were throwing brick after brick and I didn't have the blueprints for the finished product. I've learned to summarize what I think the point is and ask, just to avoid miscommunications. As well, I learned to give details when I speak rather than assume they are obvious from broad sweeping statements (a good lesson when speaking regardless of the type I'm talking to.)

 

[visaisahero]

Generalisations are fine, but if there are data that suggest otherwise, shouldn't one try and accommodate this new data rather than just rejecting it as a statistical anomalie. When there is an obvious flaw in the theory, shouldn't we be checking whether the premisis is true, and look at alternative theories that rather it being an N/S divide there might actually be a hidden variable in play?

Obviously being a sensor. I'm potentially more inclined to dig into these alternative possabilities since it's about defending myself as an individual as well. I've got more of an investment in holding my position.

You are completely right in this respect, and your position is completely understandable. Some people are just lazy, ignorant, self-absorbed, you name it. I can actually relate- it's not uncommon for people to assume that I must sleep around because I play in a rock band, or that I must be uncomfortable around the Chinese-majority population in my country because I am Indian- a minority.

In both cases, I relish the conflict that arises and enjoy being the "black swan" to shatter the generalizations of the ignorant and uninformed. I imagine we have much in common. Keep fighting the good fight, sir!

 

[Esoteric Wench]

Question to you: What if I, as an ISFP (and you knew my type) came to you (The OP) for advise about majors etc. I let it slip that I'm majoring in social work/sociology (one of those, that would be a topic of conversation). What would you say? That's a field that revolves around a lot of theory.

Honestly, MBTI theory does not normally come up in my IRL conversations. I do not use Jungian typology as a play book for how to interact with people.

Remember that I'm a P, so I just like to sit back and soak it all in. And, I'm an N, so I like to soak in theories, see patterns and connections, etc. Thus, I might use MBTI theory to give me a conceptual framework for how to best approach you to make you feel comfortable.

In response to your question, I might say to myself, "Well this person is obviously an S so I wonder if they've considered this when considering careers." If, and only if, I judged you would be comfortable with me bringing it up, would I broach the subject. Below would be my hypothetical answer:

BlackCat, I'm so excited that you feel enthusiastic about pursuing a career is social work/sociology. Let me share with you my own experiences on picking a career. I tried to be a bookkeeper once and I was sooooo miserable. That job was filled with a lot of mundane tasks. Furthermore, as a profession, accounting rewards consistency, accuracy, and attending to details. These are not my strong points. So I quit in search of a job that did play to my strengths.

This is how I came to marketing. For example, you don't saunter into work at 9:30 am in most accounting departments. There's a self-selection of people who go into accounting that don't appreciate my free spirit attitude on the job. But, I can do this in Marketing and no one cares (well some do, but most don't... as long as I get the job done.)

I tell you this because I was wondering if you had considered what kind of social work you'd like to go into. It is my understanding that there are three kinds of social workers. Macro, Mezzo, and Micro. Macro would include policy forming and advocacy on the national or even international level. Mezzo social work is about working with agencies and local non-profits. This practice would include policy making within a social work agency or developing programs for a particular neighborhood. Micro level social work involves advocating for and providing services to individuals and families.

If my experience can teach anyone anything, it'd be to find a job that fits your strengths. You have some amazing gifts that I don't have. My read on you is that your Introverted. [Waits to see if you agree with this. If you do, I proceed.] That means that you have a real depth of concentration that I do not. You also like working with facts (which I do not). My read on you is that you are a very warm and caring person, and also a very flexible and adaptable person. (This we both have in common.) [Waits to see if you agree with this. If you do, I proceed.]

You, of course, are the only one who can say for sure, but I bet you'd be really good at the Micro kind of social work, whereas I'd be far more attracted to the Macro policy-making kind. I bet you'd really enjoy providing direct practical care to people. Micro social work is definitely hands-on. I'd bet this would be a good fit for you.

If I could offer you any advice it would be to consider these kind of issues before you commit to a profession. If you want, I'd be happy to send you a couple of links that discuss how personality and career satisfaction interrelate. Let me know what you decide.

See, I think a lot of people on this thread think that I believe in using MBTI in a prescriptive manner. That's not the case at all.

 

[Quinlan]

Heck yes! S (the man) is always trying to keep us down! Beware Sensors the N will rise again!

 

[Jaguar]

I might say to myself, "Well this person is obviously an S so I wonder if they've considered this when considering careers."

A friend of mine is a retired psychologist. ESTJ.
Let's keep our eye on the ball, shall we?

MBTI in no way measures skill, or abilities.

 

[Totenkindly]

For myself, it would be silly to write off 's types' as inferior in any way. Why would I, when it's S types that have time and time again made me feel like I was the stupid one and an utter air head for being unable to notice obvious sensory changes or retain detailed information?

Yeah, same here. I've made some pretty terrible gaffs because of my conceptualizing or seeing the forest and missing some really obvious trees.

Like I've said elsewhere, I've found sensors more easily miss the forest or get hung up on a detail that wasn't contextually important or indicative. Intuitives really gloss over stuff sometimes without properly explaining themselves or fail to address some issues that are important to sensors and actually do impact the big-picture outcome.

In issues like communication, I've found less relevance in arguing over what view is "right" at first and more a matter of realizing that the two people are not on the same page and that communication is about actually bringing the two sides together at least so they understand the contrasting issues...

MBTI in no way measures skill, or abilities.

No, it just tends to impact approach... what perceptions and resolution styles are naturally valued.