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  1. #191
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kai View Post
    Even within sensing communities, there will be clashes due to the amount of differences that form an individuals (Not talking only about ESTP vs ISFJ). I'm just pointing out that the N-S divide is potentially being exaggerated by the fact that people aren't willing to cross the divide, rather than it not being possible to cross it. The same applies to many other differences in society.
    I agree with you, and that there is an element of will and personal respect/approach to others that determines how the S/N divide plays out.

    Maybe in the end the problems still stem from a "hardness of heart" so to speak. If someone chooses to be open, then they will be open regardless.

    But I think perception and judgment contributes to what we are exposed to and what we allow ourselves to be exposed to. People who naturally close themselves off from external influence (as a form of purification or self-protection) will not be forced to confront or accept other views and even when they make the effort will be rotten at it until they get some experience on how to do it appropriately.

    And as soon as we start discussing "openness" and similar qualities, we're going to have some overlap with MBTI archetypes. Various archetypes naturally embody a particular range of openness that determines the "starting point(s)" for people who approach life that way.

    One thing I have appreciated as I have aged was to find people who type the same as others I've had issues with but express a far different level of openness. It's only been in the last few years where I have experienced far more flexibility in some archetypes that I had not seen previously. In this case, I think it's a generational issue = exposure to far more influences and ways of thinking.

    So I am seeing some of what you're saying now, finally. However, it's very hard to distinguish "willingness to cross to the line" from "perception of the value of crossing the line." The two are sort of meshed together; if someone thinks openness will allow for subpar values to influence them, they won't be willing.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  2. #192
    Vaguely Precise Seymour's Avatar
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    I would add my agreement for Jennifer's generational/cultural hypothesis. I find most younger people of whatever type to be more flexible and open (on the whole) than most people of my generation were at the same age. I think it's even more striking when I compare the environment now to the environment of my parents' generation (they were in high school in the mid-1950s). As a culture here in the US, we now (more than we once did) value flexibility, openness, and the ability to deal with the easy availability of lots of information.

    In a way, I was brought up in a fairly rigid 1950s-style culture (despite the date on the calendar) and I think that had an effect on my early experiences as an INFP. I think our culture is more accepting of individual variation now, but I still think the experience of feeling type-atypical (in whatever direction) depends more on immediate family and local community.

  3. #193
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kai View Post
    I'm just pointing out that the N-S divide is potentially being exaggerated by the fact that people aren't willing to cross the divide, rather than it not being possible to cross it. The same applies to many other differences in society.
    The N-S divide you speak of is frequently a result of forced-choice questions being used in testing.
    If you remove the forced-choice question format, the results are dramatically different.
    What may appear to be true using MBTI and MBTI clones, does not necessarily hold true when using an alternative method of testing.
    That means the N-S divide is illusory in and of itself, and not as concrete as people think.

    On a societal level the divide can be crossed by anyone, at any time.
    All anyone has to do is walk across the line.
    But in case you hadn't noticed, some people pretend their legs are broken.

    They "can't" walk.

  4. #194
    Professional Trickster Esoteric Wench's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by poki View Post
    The NPs I know are actually very capable people in an S world in regard to doing things. They actually read instructions and follow them and miraculously they work(as long as the instructions are correct and the pieces are all their).

    You need to introduce me to some of these NPs so I can find out their secret.

    Seriously though, I am not a ditzy mess that some might stereotype. But I do struggle with scatterbrainedness a bit. Somedays more than others.

    Most affectionate, but somewhat accurate term ever applied to this ENFP? Flibberdigibit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Esoteric Wench View Post
    You need to introduce me to some of these NPs so I can find out their secret.

    Seriously though, I am not a ditzy mess that some might stereotype. But I do struggle with scatterbrainedness a bit. Somedays more than others.

    Most affectionate, but somewhat accurate term ever applied to this ENFP? Flibberdigibit.
    I can easily seperate the scatterbrain from the other parts.
    Im out, its been fun

  6. #196
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    While I'm sort of meh on the topic, and while I really appreciate your input (because I think you've managed to bump the conversation to a wider perspective), I'm going to have to say that some of us have had life experiences and/or trauma that were definitely related to being an N in an S environment... so you don't really have the right to override or discount that.

    Maybe that does not describe your experience, or even the majority of experiences, but for me this general lack of being understood by my family and subculture primarily because I was "N" contributed to a lot of loneliness, alienation, self-doubt, and derailing of my success in life until I finally found other people who understood me and believed in me, because I had pretty literally been "S-bombed" into inferiority and irrelevance. I also credit the loss of support from my family to be primarily a clash of vision -- they've only ever seen what's right in front of their faces and are judging me by their single-minded standard, rather than being able to see a range of possibilities for my choices and exploring them with me. The only N relative I have is the only one I have a real relationship with and the only one who understands me.

    It wasn't money. It wasn't race. It wasn't resources. It's partly due to religion, partly politics... but I think how we approach religion and spirituality and politics is influenced heavily by our cognitive preferences, so...
    I guess this is what I was getting at from the beginning: perceptual filters frame how we categorize things. I'm not discounting anyone's experience, just trying to point out how things as seemingly simple as geography can affect experiences. It's been said by several people in this thread about factors like confirmation bias effecting how we type another person. I do not believe that this is a S/N divide I believe it's a matter of having people around you that share the a compatible belief system, core values, cultural values (micro and macro), mentality, outlook, compatible traits, similar backgrounds, experiences, and things like that. When those synchronize and merge between people you get people who "understand" you, who you "connect" with, who you can develop something beyond what most people you come into contact with are capable of giving you. I suppose you categorize these things as Sensing and Intuition and I don't. Are we talking about the same thing with a different name or are we talking about completely difference things? If you're saying that being S or N influences those traits then I have to go back to my post you quoted and say that I think socioeconomics are stronger indicators than function preferences.

    Another thing that I've thought about are expectations of being understood. Should I expect to be understood? Who should I expect to understand me? Why should they understand me? Have I recognized and acknowledged their efforts to understand me? Am I communicating myself clearly enough to be understood? Do I understand them? How much effort am I giving to understand them? How well am I demonstrating that I understand them? Is there reciprocity...is this balanced? TBH, this takes a lot of effort at least for me and I imagine it does for another person. I don't expect to be understood mostly so when I'm not it's not something that upsets me. But neither do I believe that the people around me are incapable of understanding or that I have some greater perspective than they do because invariably something will happen to knock me down a peg or two and show me I don't know jack. I know you're referring to your family and I think it's reasonable to expect a high level of understanding from family. I can't comment on your family dynamics and of course you would know where to attribute a rift in understanding between you all better than me. One could argue though that if you knew this was an intuitive relative and you expected a better understanding and acted in ways to get that understanding then your behaviors resulted in a better understanding. But like I said, I don't pretend to know the particular dynamics within your family.

    I know know know about "church folk." I don't talk about it on the forum, but Jen I've read your experiences they closely align with mine. I guess for me just being the person I am, I've always found people even within a certain system I don't agree with that I can vibe with even if the search was hard. I'm pretty persistent about these things. I'm willing to accept being understood by very few people and for those who I've chosen to reveal myself to I've got a exceptionally good rate of what I feel is mutual understanding. LOL, when I lower my expectations things suddenly get better as far as my outlook is concerned.

    For some reason, I get the feeling that people think sensors are more susceptible to indoctrination which prevents them from thinking critically, questioning their beliefs, and being willing to dismantle their belief systems if need be. I'm seeing some talk in the last few posts about being open and open-minded. I've yet to see a good working definition of what that means. For now, I'll say that if a major component of a person's self-concept is being "open-minded" then they'll act in ways that they believe conform to an/their open-minded ideal. This is just me theorizing (or maybe I read this somewhere who knows!) but if their ideal of being open-minded can become a dogma that they abide as strictly as some legalist Christian. I guess the next step is to figure out what the consequences of being dogmatically open-minded is, or dogmatically anything. Some people would say that extreme versions of anything is bad, although see how being extreme under certain circumstances could be beneficial.

    I've forgotten how I was going to connect that all together so I'll stop for now.
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
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  7. #197
    Vaguely Precise Seymour's Avatar
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    My guess is that it isn't always beneficial if your natural type meshes too perfectly with your social environment, in the sense that then there can be little impetuous to develop anything past your top two functions. I think we grow when our current ways of coping and understanding are insufficient.

    In some ways, I think our culture has moved a bit too far away from valuing some of the stereotypical 50s STJ-ish virtues. I think we emphasize being smart and talented over the value of perseverance, conscientiousness and hard work. We don't always do a good job of teaching that thoroughness and attention to detail are necessary, too. Some people aren't forced to learn those lessons well into adulthood, much to their detriment.

  8. #198
    Was E.laur Laurie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elaur View Post
    I'm sick of being an NP in an SJ world.
    I just answered with what I consider made me "not fit in" the most. I've also had J/P clashes with my IJ husband for years so that certainly didn't help. I struggled in school even though I had no problems comprehending anything. All because of my glorious Pness. The N has just made me not quite fit in in other ways which I'm too lazy to specify or deliberate on right now.

    I actually love being NP - I just think it's made my life less smoooth.

    SJ's have the same amount of complaints about the world that I do, I'm sure. Life isn't easy on anyone. In this case I'm just talking about me becase that is the life I've lived.

  9. #199
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    Phenomenal cosmic power, itsy-bitsy living space the Genie, Aladdin

    I think what I find most annoying is the people who are too quick to judge; the need to categorize so perceivable understanding may be claimed. Its just a way for these types to remain comfortable with themselves, maybe their own insecurity with an unknown? Ive been called all manner of names this is what I get for working in engineering which seems to be almost devoid of Ns, lots of Judges though. Sometimes its better to just don the persona they expect to some degree, better work flow. I had one job working in the Oil and Gas Industry and this was certainly the thing to do when in the field, Drill Rig workers something about red and neck.

    Another situation which drives me crazy is trying to get to know women. By that I mean, and this may be a gross simplification of the matter, but I get the impression a lot of women are able to categorize men in a few types. The Player / Couthless Horn-dog, the Needy / Inept, the Weird / Creepy, and Mister Right, I dont know off the top of my head the split might be 50-24-24-2%, hey we all may be right. Point is it would be nice if there were a larger percentage of compatible people, any decent person can get along but a relationship has more to it. Whatever this issue is bigger than personality types, social expectations, desires, etc we need a better social system, a different structure in society I find theres just way to many quantitative hedonists in our culture. We are spoiled and the alarm bells have been ringing for decades.

    Its not like Im in favor of a Socialist or Utopian or whatever society, that kind of change is too expensive to institute and only come about as a result of war, social unrest, whatever. We are fortunate to have the right to elect the people whom govern our country, but who really controls it, global corporations? Unfortunately we dont elect the CEOs and board of directors, furthermore, I dont get the impression that these people are feelers or even care much about anything but money. Honest I would be hard pressed to think of a successful business owner who wasnt at some point been a self serving shyster, one who thinks of people before the bottom line, yeah right. I guess Im a Buddhist Economics dreamer, Economics As If People Mattered. Yeah I think that spells it out exactly why it would be nicer, advantageous, completely necessary to have more of us in the world and in places of power.

    The Dali lama met with Obama this week -behind closed doors and furthermore the press coverage was well choreographed, the buzz was how is this going to affect US China relations. Theres an entire country which is one big corporation, google how many power plants are slated for production in the next twenty years, what good is it if some countries do their part for the planet, Kyoto (laughs), and such a major player flips them the bird. Interesting to note the planets population caring capacity is estimated to be reached within five to ten years of the depletion of the worlds crude oil reserves, 2050ish. And we have shows like Jon and Kate plus eight and the other one with 19 kids or so, what are you rabbits how irresponsible is that, how vain and close-minded to the actual world we live in, every couple just needs a kid right. Yeah ever seen the movie Idiocracy?

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    Last edited by odetoio; 02-20-2010 at 10:57 AM.

  10. #200
    Senior Member Saslou's Avatar
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    “I made you take time to look at what I saw and when you took time to really notice my flower, you hung all your associations with flowers on my flower and you write about my flower as if I think and see what you think and see—and I don't.”
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