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  1. #171

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    Quote Originally Posted by MDP2525 View Post
    What's an "S" world? Or an "N" world for that matter? This forum segregates the divide much more than the real world ever does.
    You are right, of course. But do bear in mind that this forum is built upon a foundation of discussion and intellectual stimulation. An analogy- suppose S were to be represented by white, and N by black. You could argue that the world isn't black or white, but shades of grey- and you would be completely correct.

    That doesn't, however, inherently invalidate discussion about the differences between black and white. The fact is, even in a chromatic world, some shades of grey are closer to black than others and some shades are closer to white- and if you observe that the world seems to be predominantly, say, light grey- then surely that is something that can be pondered about, and discussed.

    The division is, of course, emphasized for the sake of discussion. You could do the same for the rich/poor divide, male/female divide, divisions based on religion, ethnicity... the list goes on.

    Everybody should realise that you can never define an entire person based on one of their qualities, the same way you can never predict the movement of a solitary particle. But just as large quantities of randomly-moving particles may exhibit patterns (be they representing solid, liquid, gas or what-have-you), large quantities of complex people who share a particular quality may exhibit behavioral patterns as well. You might go so far as to imagine someone saying (perhaps half in-jest) "What's a solid, liquid, or gas? You people segregate the divide much more than the real world ever does," and they would be completely right.

    That said, divisions for divisions' sake are pointless, and it's up to each individual (and perhaps all of us together as a community) to decide how much is useful and how much is not. Different people have different levels of interest and/or tolerance for this sort of thing. I for one, personally find it quite fascinating.

  2. #172
    Senior Member Snow Turtle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Esoteric Wench View Post
    The purpose of this thread was to evoke discussion among Ns about the trials and tribulations of dealing with Ss. I also asked Ns to share any tips on how to bridge the S/N communication gap. Often Ns don't understand / feel different from Ss. And since Ss make up about 80% of the population, I don't think it untoward to have a forum for discussing the unique challenges Ns sometimes face.

    I have come to appreciate the Sensors in my life even more since I now better understand where they are coming from (thanks to MBTI theory). Much to my dismay, several Ss have said they feel like this thread is about S bashing which was never the intent. Which is why I started this thread:

    [B][/B]

    There are undeniable and profound differences between Ss and Ns, Sensors bring a lot to the table. This thread looks at these same issues from a different angle. The focus is on what Ns like about Sensors. And it asks for Ss to give Ns who want to improve their S/N interactions some suggestions.
    Hence the 'unintentional bashing' that we comment upon. You are encouraging generalisations and attempting to force us all into one category based off limited sample. Yes, it's true that there is a difference between sensing and intuition but does it really produce such a huge difference in terms of overall personality?

    BlackCat mentioned earlier about the whole tendancy to engage in confirmation bias. Rather than giving an explanation for those who disagreed with your assessment on the reality of the situation, it just appears that you engaged in 'well... that's just one out of a hundred/it's not their natural field' when that statement hasn't even been proven to generalise to the population. How can it be false? You are operating on the basis that it's definitely true.

    Overall most of the tone in this thread is just patronising, just like the countless other threads that I've seen on this forum in the past such as SF people aren't 'inferior' just more 'simple' to NFs and so fourth. No, I'd argue that it's not that we aren't more simple, but rather no real connection has been established. You probably won't like this statement at all, but I don't feel that you have grasped (at least me) or other sensors on this thread at all because of your preconceived notions of what it means to be a sensor.

    We're talking about 80% of the population. There is going to be some huge variations between people when it comes to having an interest in academia and theory.

  3. #173

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    "Overall most of the tone in this thread is just patronising, just like the countless other threads that I've seen on this forum in the past such as SF people aren't 'inferior' just more 'simple' to NFs and so fourth."

    I'm just playing Devil's Advocate here, but aren't you generalizing the N-type perception of S-types the same way you claim N-types have a generalized perception of S-types?

    You say that you have seen "countless" threads by N-types about "inferior" S-types; an N-type could similarly cite "countless" experiences he/she has had with S-types that justified such a generalization.

    No statement can EVER be proven to completely generalize ANY population. That's the problem of inductive reasoning, isn't it? Even if every single swan you encounter in your life is white, it does not mean that there are no black swans. People will always generalize as they please. Is it inherently a bad thing? I cannot say. It depends on the individual, the context, and so many other things.

  4. #174
    Senior Member Snow Turtle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by visaisahero View Post
    "Overall most of the tone in this thread is just patronising, just like the countless other threads that I've seen on this forum in the past such as SF people aren't 'inferior' just more 'simple' to NFs and so fourth."

    I'm just playing Devil's Advocate here, but aren't you generalizing the N-type perception of S-types the same way you claim N-types have a generalized perception of S-types?

    You say that you have seen "countless" threads by N-types about "inferior" S-types; an N-type could similarly cite "countless" experiences he/she has had with S-types that justified such a generalization.

    No statement can EVER be proven to completely generalize ANY population. That's the problem of inductive reasoning, isn't it? Even if every single swan you encounter in your life is white, it does not mean that there are no black swans. People will always generalize as they please. Is it inherently a bad thing? I cannot say. It depends on the individual, the context, and so many other things.
    I've been on this forum for a while and I know that not all intuitives have this perception of sensors. So I'm not really making a generalisations on intuitives but rather I'm talking about specific individuals, in this case I'm arguing against the OPs perception. Perhaps I shouldn't have used the word countless, but I was refering to all the previous 'S vs N' threads I've battled on. One or two example that come straight to mind:

    Distinguishing INFJ from ISFJ

    NF Different Feeling from SF

    Generalisations are fine, but if there are data that suggest otherwise, shouldn't one try and accommodate this new data rather than just rejecting it as a statistical anomalie. When there is an obvious flaw in the theory, shouldn't we be checking whether the premisis is true, and look at alternative theories that rather it being an N/S divide there might actually be a hidden variable in play?

    Anyway, I'm not entirely sure why I keep coming back to recite my arguments when I know that it'll never end. Other sensors here seem to realise that it's a little pointless engaging in attempting to defend ourselves since there will always be something appearing in the future. I suppose being a sensor, there is more of an investment and incentive to look into these ideas regarding the difference between S/N since it's about defending myself.

  5. #175
    Senior Member Cybin's Avatar
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    There is a bit of a patronizing tone in this thread, but it seems to me to be unintentional.

    Certainly, though, I can't (and by the size of this thread, am not) be the only one who notices the large communication gap between people who prefer to look for abstract connections and those who prefer the real and tangible. We are talking about what aspects of our environment we see and understand. Regardless of the label, there are going to be people of one side, the other, and everywhere in between.

    For myself, it would be silly to write off 's types' as inferior in any way. Why would I, when it's S types that have time and time again made me feel like I was the stupid one and an utter air head for being unable to notice obvious sensory changes or retain detailed information?

    Even before I knew about MBTI, this communication gap was painfully obvious. I'e come a long way in being able to bridge it as well. The biggest difference I've found, and it hit me like a brick one day conversing with my ESFJ mother, was that I get frustrated because I don't feel S types get to the point (generally speaking) when the truth is the point is in the details. I felt they were throwing brick after brick and I didn't have the blueprints for the finished product. I've learned to summarize what I think the point is and ask, just to avoid miscommunications. As well, I learned to give details when I speak rather than assume they are obvious from broad sweeping statements (a good lesson when speaking regardless of the type I'm talking to.)

  6. #176

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kai View Post
    Generalisations are fine, but if there are data that suggest otherwise, shouldn't one try and accommodate this new data rather than just rejecting it as a statistical anomalie. When there is an obvious flaw in the theory, shouldn't we be checking whether the premisis is true, and look at alternative theories that rather it being an N/S divide there might actually be a hidden variable in play?

    Obviously being a sensor. I'm potentially more inclined to dig into these alternative possabilities since it's about defending myself as an individual as well. I've got more of an investment in holding my position.
    You are completely right in this respect, and your position is completely understandable. Some people are just lazy, ignorant, self-absorbed, you name it. I can actually relate- it's not uncommon for people to assume that I must sleep around because I play in a rock band, or that I must be uncomfortable around the Chinese-majority population in my country because I am Indian- a minority.

    In both cases, I relish the conflict that arises and enjoy being the "black swan" to shatter the generalizations of the ignorant and uninformed. I imagine we have much in common. Keep fighting the good fight, sir!

  7. #177
    Professional Trickster Esoteric Wench's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackCat View Post
    Question to you: What if I, as an ISFP (and you knew my type) came to you (The OP) for advise about majors etc. I let it slip that I'm majoring in social work/sociology (one of those, that would be a topic of conversation). What would you say? That's a field that revolves around a lot of theory.
    Honestly, MBTI theory does not normally come up in my IRL conversations. I do not use Jungian typology as a play book for how to interact with people.

    Remember that I'm a P, so I just like to sit back and soak it all in. And, I'm an N, so I like to soak in theories, see patterns and connections, etc. Thus, I might use MBTI theory to give me a conceptual framework for how to best approach you to make you feel comfortable.

    In response to your question, I might say to myself, "Well this person is obviously an S so I wonder if they've considered this when considering careers." If, and only if, I judged you would be comfortable with me bringing it up, would I broach the subject. Below would be my hypothetical answer:

    BlackCat, I'm so excited that you feel enthusiastic about pursuing a career is social work/sociology. Let me share with you my own experiences on picking a career. I tried to be a bookkeeper once and I was sooooo miserable. That job was filled with a lot of mundane tasks. Furthermore, as a profession, accounting rewards consistency, accuracy, and attending to details. These are not my strong points. So I quit in search of a job that did play to my strengths.

    This is how I came to marketing. For example, you don't saunter into work at 9:30 am in most accounting departments. There's a self-selection of people who go into accounting that don't appreciate my free spirit attitude on the job. But, I can do this in Marketing and no one cares (well some do, but most don't... as long as I get the job done.)

    I tell you this because I was wondering if you had considered what kind of social work you'd like to go into. It is my understanding that there are three kinds of social workers. Macro, Mezzo, and Micro. Macro would include policy forming and advocacy on the national or even international level. Mezzo social work is about working with agencies and local non-profits. This practice would include policy making within a social work agency or developing programs for a particular neighborhood. Micro level social work involves advocating for and providing services to individuals and families.

    If my experience can teach anyone anything, it'd be to find a job that fits your strengths. You have some amazing gifts that I don't have. My read on you is that your Introverted. [Waits to see if you agree with this. If you do, I proceed.] That means that you have a real depth of concentration that I do not. You also like working with facts (which I do not). My read on you is that you are a very warm and caring person, and also a very flexible and adaptable person. (This we both have in common.) [Waits to see if you agree with this. If you do, I proceed.]

    You, of course, are the only one who can say for sure, but I bet you'd be really good at the Micro kind of social work, whereas I'd be far more attracted to the Macro policy-making kind. I bet you'd really enjoy providing direct practical care to people. Micro social work is definitely hands-on. I'd bet this would be a good fit for you.

    If I could offer you any advice it would be to consider these kind of issues before you commit to a profession. If you want, I'd be happy to send you a couple of links that discuss how personality and career satisfaction interrelate. Let me know what you decide.
    See, I think a lot of people on this thread think that I believe in using MBTI in a prescriptive manner. That's not the case at all.

  8. #178
    Intriguing.... Quinlan's Avatar
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    Heck yes! S (the man) is always trying to keep us down! Beware Sensors the N will rise again!
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  9. #179
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Esoteric Wench View Post
    I might say to myself, "Well this person is obviously an S so I wonder if they've considered this when considering careers."
    A friend of mine is a retired psychologist. ESTJ.
    Let's keep our eye on the ball, shall we?

    MBTI in no way measures skill, or abilities.

  10. #180
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cybin View Post
    For myself, it would be silly to write off 's types' as inferior in any way. Why would I, when it's S types that have time and time again made me feel like I was the stupid one and an utter air head for being unable to notice obvious sensory changes or retain detailed information?
    Yeah, same here. I've made some pretty terrible gaffs because of my conceptualizing or seeing the forest and missing some really obvious trees.

    Like I've said elsewhere, I've found sensors more easily miss the forest or get hung up on a detail that wasn't contextually important or indicative. Intuitives really gloss over stuff sometimes without properly explaining themselves or fail to address some issues that are important to sensors and actually do impact the big-picture outcome.

    In issues like communication, I've found less relevance in arguing over what view is "right" at first and more a matter of realizing that the two people are not on the same page and that communication is about actually bringing the two sides together at least so they understand the contrasting issues...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    MBTI in no way measures skill, or abilities.
    No, it just tends to impact approach... what perceptions and resolution styles are naturally valued.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

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