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  1. #91
    Professional Trickster Esoteric Wench's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    I feel like there are so many more salient characteristics to my identity and the identity of others that being a "sensor" or "intuitive" pales in comparison. I can't help but read some of the responses in this thread and take mental note of the people who feel like they're at some disadvantage because of there theoretical mental modes and shuffle them off to some category of having poor relational skills. Yes, I know judgmental, but I feel like this is a judgmental thread....

    I just view being S or N as an insignificant and unremarkable way of categorizing a person and it says very little about you. I personally find out more meaningful information about a person knowing they grew up in Ethiopia and came to America when they were 12 and talking about how their previous life and how they adjusted than them telling me they're an ENFP.
    So Proteanmix, you say you're Fe. I'm just making a guess here, but my gut tells me ENFJ. Let me tell you why... then you can tell me if I'm wrong.

    I've come to learn that while I feel a special kinship with all NFs, I have the hardest time with ENFJs. It's like ENFPs and ENFJs are very close in the way they see the world, but the ways in which they see it differently are such that interactions between ENFPs and ENFJs are often very unsatisfying. In other words, I often feel like the ENFJs I know are in the ballpark but missing the important points. This is how I felt when I read your post.

    I don't mean this is a criticism at all. But I do think this is wonderfully illustrative of why it is important, on occasion, to focus one's lens on personality type and not just national identity or social disadvantage/advantage. These things are important, too. But regardless of where or when we live, each of us still must interact with the cards time and place have dealt us by the filter or our personality type.

    So back to the illustrativeness of this post. I was having a particularly hard time with an ENFJ I know when I came across this link on a socionics Website. I'm sure most people on this forum know that one of the more salient points that socionics brings to the MBTI table is that types tend to relate in predictable ways. ENFPs and ENFJs have quasi-identical relations. This is the starting point for our interactions. We can overcome our differences, but I think this description of quasi-identical relationships spells out the hurdles to be overcome:

    These are relations of major misunderstanding. Quasi-Identical partners can interact with each other in a more or less peaceful manner if both partners are Thinking types. If they are both Feeling types however, they are likely to have an argumentative relationship. Also, as in the other relations, personal attraction can be very crucial to the peacefulness in their relationship. An absence of personal attraction may cause unnecessary internal tension resulting in conflict between partners. However these arguments do not often last long. After both partners have released their internal tension, the Perceiving partner is usually the first to show the initiative in reconciliation.

    A positive aspect of these relations is that Quasi-Identical partners do not underline your weak points and therefore are not viewed as dangerous by each other. Neither do they see each other as equal. Each partner sees the other as less capable than themselves, hence less talented. However, Quasi-Identicals mistakenly believe that their partner is achieving more than they are. This is perceived by both partners as injustice and may hinder the ambitions of both.

    In these relations partners always have difficulty understanding each other in full. Quasi-Identical partners always need to convert each other's information in such a way that it corresponds with their own understanding. This conversion requires much energy and does not bring the desired satisfaction. Books written by your Quasi-Identical are impossible to read. The creations of your Quasi-Identical look monstrous. Conversations with your Quasi-Identical, although not heavy, do not bring any satisfaction either. One partner may think that the other partner complicates simple things and simplifies the important points, trying to deliberately confuse and mislead them. Both partners are convinced that whatever their partner was trying to say, could be explained in a different and more understandable way.

    Quasi-Identicals normally have no difficulties in finding topics for conversation or discussion. When it comes to solving problems together, Quasi-Identical partners begin to understand that they are both thinking in very different ways. Soon Quasi-Identicals may start regretting the time that they have spent together, believing that it was just wasted time. Quasi-identical relations are very fragile and normally break without regret as there is usually nothing to resist their disunion.
    Anyway, the point of this post is that I read ENFJ/ENFP hurdles here. So am I right? Are you ENFJ?

  2. #92
    Senior Member Lacey's Avatar
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    Actually, I'm sick of being an I in an E world.

    Quote Originally Posted by Adoamros View Post
    Most of my family are sensors but I don't really feel different from them, besides my interests and core processor.
    My mom is ENFP, but everybody else in my family is a Sensor. They understand me better than anybody else in the world. I have Sensor friends, and we get along and understand each other just fine.

    I've actually come away from interactions with other N's, several times, scratching my head. I think that there are many more things besides N/S that can cause glitches in communication.

    Maybe I'm a weird N, but small talk in general doesn't bother me. You can complain about the weather with anyone. Instant common ground. It's cool that there are certain things you can talk about with virtually anyone.

    I know other people have mentioned trying to get on the other person's level or wavelength or whatever. (I have shit Fe, so I fail at this most of the time, but I try.) I've found that most of the time, when you try this, the other person will at least try to reciprocate.

    For the most part, I don't understand the whole N/S divide. *shrug*

  3. #93
    Professional Trickster Esoteric Wench's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lacey View Post
    I have shit Fe, so I fail at this most of the time, but I try.... For the most part, I don't understand the whole N/S divide. *shrug*
    Are you sure your an INFP? 'Cause INFPs have dominant Fe which means they shine at Fe kind of things without really trying. If you're new to MBTI, and having a hard time getting your head around N/S differences (btw, this is the most profound way in which two people are different if they differ in this way) then you should check this page out. It's a really well written (a little wordy, but well done) overview of personality type. Here's an excerpt regarding S/N differences.

    My next decision was whether I used intuition or sensation more. For me this was harder. We live in a concrete world. We eat, sleep, go to work, and are surrounded by colors and textures. Our world is physical and we use our senses all the time just to get through the day, and so it was natural for me to assume that I used sensation more than intuition.

    But little by little I began to realize it wasn't quite that simple. I really wasn't very good at sensation. Details of my environment escaped me. I didn't notice the clothes people were wearing, for instance, nor could I remember immediately what I had had for dinner last night. I managed to get through my daily routine, but the physical objects around me did not capture my attention. Or I might feel tired, and it wasn't until I ate something - and felt better that I would realize what the problem had been.

    But what was intuition? It wasn't concrete like sensation. It was a hunch, a way of sniffing out possibilities. It wasn't geared to the present like sensation is, but to the future. Intuition sees what isn't there yet, but could be. Once I understood intuition in this way I began to see how of ten I used it. When I met someone, it was not the present moment that counted, or what we were actually doing, but the possibilities that that relationship offered. I would dream up a new plan, and then be impatient with both myself and the project because it didn't get done fast enough. Today was O.K., but tomorrow, always tomorrow, would be better.
    Now I find this one of the easiest things to pick up on in other people. Give me five minutes (or two emails) with an Intuitive and I'll know it. It's like gaydar... or rather Ndar. I just feel like I'm speaking the same language.

    Anyway, N/S differences color everything we do. It affects our attitudes about sex, relationships, our jobs, our place in the world. I cannot understate how profoundly different Ss and Ns are.

  4. #94
    psicobolche tcda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    This. I'm surprised more people didn't agree but whatevs.

    I feel like there are so many more salient characteristics to my identity and the identity of others that being a "sensor" or "intuitive" pales in comparison. I can't help but read some of the responses in this thread and take mental note of the people who feel like they're at some disadvantage because of there theoretical mental modes and shuffle them off to some category of having poor relational skills. Yes, I know judgmental, but I feel like this is a judgmental thread.

    I suppose I look at this from a heuristic POV. I would ask those people who feel like they're disadvantaged to sit down and make at list of their status markers: race, sex, socioeconomic status, culture, nationality, health and wellness of being, freedom from violence, geographical location, education, access to technology (you at least have internet to post on an internet forum!), access to clean water and food, etc. See how you really fare in comparison to other people and figure out in what ways are you truly (dis)advantaged.

    I just view being S or N as an insignificant and unremarkable way of categorizing a person and it says very little about you. I personally find out more meaningful information about a person knowing they grew up in Ethiopia and came to America when they were 12 and talking about how their previous life and how they adjusted than them telling me they're an ENFP.

    The main thing I think about on a global scale is when I think about being an African-American woman I turn right around and think to myself well at least you're American. And that means a lot. It implies many things about my status that 85% of the world cannot claim. And then I think about my socioeconomic status within America and in reality I'm doing even better. But still if I continue on that vein similar to this thread I could just as easily think I'm sick of being a person of color in a white world. I'm sick of being a woman in a man's world. If I were homosexual I could say the same thing about a heterosexual world, or even religion or being rich, poor, or middle class. This could be political and have more relevance, meaning, and effect more people in a visceral way.

    Casca and CzeCze mentioned it earlier in the thread, but I suppose if I were to assign a typological reason to this I am a Fe-dom and I have no problem adjusting my communication levels to people so it just doesn't ping me in the way it pings some people in this thread. I know how to find people I click with on a more substantial level and I don't expect to have anything more than a superficial relationship with 99% of the people I come into contact with. For those that I do have more substantial relations with, well that just requires more work and investment period.blank.

    I know how to extract a satisfying interaction from about 75% of the people I have those superficial (not superficial as in fake, but superficial as in casual) interactions with. I don't mind chit chat and small talk. To me it's nothing like shared laughter with a group of strangers to momentarily bind us together. I don't mind ephemeral connections to people that break even after a few minutes of bonding. To me it seems more of a matter of being able to extract meaning from those interactions rather than rendering most interactions as meaningless.
    Woo, well said.

    It's not an S world, it's a rich persons world. Regardless of MBTI.

    Using MBTI as an identity is often a refuge for people who can't find their "place" in society, which I find sad. I know who I am, where I come from, what I believe in and what I want to acheive, and those things are what make me act the way I do and determine how I get on with more than MBTI.

    Also I wanted to give an example from first hand experience: an SJ/SP person who has come into conflict with the capitalist system - often in order to defend their families and communities - is much more "enlightened" than a hundred right-wing iNtuitives on a forum who have never had such an "enlightening" experience. There are obviously other examples like the ones you gave.

    The one thing I do thank MBTI for is helping me to understand how ot adjust forms of presenting information and communicating with people, now that I can identify their MBTI type. From that point of view, it's a very positive system.
    "Of course we spent our money in the good times. That's what you're supposed to do in good times! You can't save money in the good times. Then they wouldn't be good times, they'd be 'preparation for the bad times' times."

    "Every country in the world owes money. Everyone. So heere's what I dont get: who do they all owe it to, and why don't we just kill the bastard and relax?"

    -Tommy Tiernan, Irish comedian.

  5. #95
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Esoteric Wench View Post
    Are you sure your an INFP? 'Cause INFPs have dominant Fe which means they shine at Fe kind of things without really trying. If you're new to MBTI, and having a hard time getting your head around N/S differences (btw, this is the most profound way in which two people are different if they differ in this way) then you should check this page out.
    INFP's are Fi dominant; I assume we are talking about MBTI types.

    That page makes me vomit, actually.

    Edit: OK, I'm being harsh saying that, but ugghhh, that page just sits wrong with me. And I do appreciate the effort required to write all that, and there are some portions of value ... but, ugghhh.

    Quote Originally Posted by Esoteric Wench View Post
    Now I find this one of the easiest things to pick up on in other people. Give me five minutes (or two emails) with an Intuitive and I'll know it. It's like gaydar... or rather Ndar. I just feel like I'm speaking the same language.

    Anyway, N/S differences color everything we do. It affects our attitudes about sex, relationships, our jobs, our place in the world. I cannot understate how profoundly different Ss and Ns are.
    You need to be very careful EW. I recognize your excitement, your "falling in love" time with MBTI. Treat it as a tool in the toolbox, nothing more. Like any tool, it isn't appropriate for every use, doesn't fix everything nor should it. It has a time and place for employment.

    Take care not to assign MBTI more significance than warranted. I understand the revelation it seems to open to you, and that's wonderful, but I just want to temper your enthusiasm a little. You're entering dangerous territory without even being aware of it. Tread lightly.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  6. #96
    No Cigar Litvyak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Esoteric Wench View Post
    Now I find this one of the easiest things to pick up on in other people. Give me five minutes (or two emails) with an Intuitive and I'll know it. It's like gaydar... or rather Ndar. I just feel like I'm speaking the same language.
    "In the beginning there was only the Light. And the Light shone in the Absolute Emptiness. The Light Shone for Itself Alone. The Light consisted of 23,000 lightbearing rays. And we were those rays."

    Read This And I'll Love You, blue-eyed one: Amazon.com: Ice (New York Review Books Classics) (9781590171950): Vladimir Sorokin, Jamey Gambrell: Books

  7. #97
    psicobolche tcda's Avatar
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    Are you sure your an INFP? 'Cause INFPs have dominant Fe which means they shine at Fe kind of things (...) if you're new to MBTI, and having a hard time getting your head around


    (N/S) is the most profound way in which two people are different if they differ in this way
    Says who?
    "Of course we spent our money in the good times. That's what you're supposed to do in good times! You can't save money in the good times. Then they wouldn't be good times, they'd be 'preparation for the bad times' times."

    "Every country in the world owes money. Everyone. So heere's what I dont get: who do they all owe it to, and why don't we just kill the bastard and relax?"

    -Tommy Tiernan, Irish comedian.

  8. #98
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    That's funny. I'm the exact opposite, it's hard for me NOT to step into the other person's communication style. (And s ometimes I have to fight it, because I feel like I'm compromising myself.)
    I can relate to this. It is a big part of the reason I feel best teaching one-on-one. A fly on the wall could tell you how much I transform between students. I'm quite a few different teachers. It's mostly helpful until there are a bunch of people sending of conflicting signals. Then I'm as lost as if there were waves crashing upon my little raft from all directions.

    I probably shouldn't put this in a function charged thread because I do not think this is necessarily an S thing, but there is something that wearies me deeply when interacting in the world. It is the work ethic that equates character with coming into work no matter how sick you are, how dangerous the roads, etc. This is a point of complete exasperation to me because it attempts to personalize the manipulation for the benefit of the company. The argument used to punish those who do not do it is a description of all the hardships the other person endures to fulfill duties. The central question is "have you ever considered your own choices have been unwise?" This work-ethic that places the individual and their coworkers at risk is for the supposed benefit of the company who rarely reciprocates that sort of devotion. People who are sick or facing physical peril should take care of themselves. It is unethical and void of compassion not to support those choices. Various types can do this sort of thing, but it's been on my mind more than MBTI, and I ended up posting it here.

    Quote Originally Posted by tcda View Post
    Says who?
    I believe that is Kiersey's shtick. ( author of "Please Understand Me")
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

  9. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by Esoteric Wench View Post
    Actually Intuitives are drawn to university education (which is largely conceptual) in a liberal arts college setting. K-12 education is dominated by Sensors.

    The data backs this up. I've read some articles that say that in a traditional liberal arts private college upwards of 85% of the professors are Ns. This makes sense really. Come on. How many Sensors are gonna get a Ph.D. in Philosophy?

    Here's an interesting article on this subject for faculty members on a Georgia State University website.
    I disagree. The majority is drawn to university(lecturers are different, I meant the students) because this will provide status and high salary, material style of living. Textbook S territory.

    Quote Originally Posted by Esoteric Wench View Post
    If you're new to MBTI, and having a hard time getting your head around N/S differences (btw, this is the most profound way in which two people are different if they differ in this way)
    I disagree again I'd say it's Judging perceiving mode that is the greatest difference. Then it's F/T, I/E and last N/S.

    The point is that MBTI is as subjective as you can get it, not to mention relativity..and thinking that any of this is true is imo a grave mistake. It might have truth connected to it's ideas. But the classifications themselves are bunk outside of the moment. But I experience the world as fluid and dynamic. I don't believe in heterosexuality or homosexuality either. Not even female and male. It's all definitions, and generalizations. They hold true for this, but not for the individual. Once should clense ones mind from such distractions regarding an individual if one really want to experience/sense what is there. The problem is that Ses aren't really Ses either....

  10. #100
    Carerra Lu IZthe411's Avatar
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    You are an N, but you fail to see the big picture of your "big picture ability," that is, to use to contribute to the quality of life, for all people. These functions aren't meant to cause separations or class distinctions. MBTI is first and foremost to understand self, and then understand others- strenghts and weaknesses. Use it to find your niche in the real world. Sensors dominate, but there's a place for all types.

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