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[MBTI General] You can defend others, but not yourself?

Kastor

New member
Joined
Jul 23, 2007
Messages
228
MBTI Type
INFP
Enneagram
4w5
You know what I mean? What're your experiences in this matter?
 

Shaunward

New member
Joined
Jan 24, 2010
Messages
297
I tend to think of people as my children (even if they're much older than me). People can say nasty things to me and it doesn't bother me.

I feel a bit of a fatherly instinct with people, I suppose. Don't know if it's so much my typology as much as it is that I've always taken my big brother duties so seriously.
 

quietmusician

New member
Joined
Nov 29, 2008
Messages
320
MBTI Type
INFJ
Enneagram
4
That's a good question to ponder. I guess it's because I sometimes feel like I deserve all of the crap headed in my direction, while I like sticking up for people. It's more of a "me" issue because of my lack of self confidence and I try and make up for it with compassion. But I will say that I turn into a completely different person when I'm defending someone. I feel as if I'm sticking up for mankind, you know? I guess it's something to work on.
 

Kastor

New member
Joined
Jul 23, 2007
Messages
228
MBTI Type
INFP
Enneagram
4w5
I had quite a few run-ins with a douchebag from my old high school. He'd pick on this one girl in our gym class who seemed to be mentally handicapped. I don't think I've ever felt so much hostility and disdain towards a person to that degree before. It was just sickening, and our gym teacher would never do anything about it because I couldn't 'prove it'.
 
P

Phantonym

Guest
Good question, indeed. I don't necessarily think that I deserve the things said to me but it seems that there's at least some truth in everything that comes my way. So, I start processing it and while doing so, defending myself is the last thing on my mind.

Sometimes it's more like obstructionism, when confronted with something and I'm "pressured" to defend myself. It's like I have to put things on hold because I have to look at them from multiple aspects, consider all the data, myself, the person who is "attacking" me, evaluate the situation and the evidence the other party presents, is it even anything relevant and whatnot. I need time to think things through and reach a decision on whether it's even a situation where I should defend myself or how to go about doing that. And that can be interpreted as being submissive and unable to defend myself. Most of the time I simply choose that it's not worth the effort because the situation is absolutely ridiculous and I'm above that already. I walk away.

But with defending others it's like a black and white scenario, there is not so much getting lost in the processing of the data but a strong need to act. I "feel" the need to stand up for those in need. And it's not that they can't do it for themselves, it's more like a unified front against the "evil".
 

teslashock

Geolectric
Joined
Oct 27, 2009
Messages
1,690
MBTI Type
ENTP
Enneagram
7w6
For some reason, (apparent) altruism is honorable while self-preservation is deplorable. It seems to be some sort of (random?) social law...
 

Poki

New member
Joined
Dec 4, 2008
Messages
10,436
MBTI Type
STP
Instinctual Variant
sx/so
For some reason, (apparent) altruism is honorable while self-preservation is deplorable. It seems to be some sort of (random?) social law that my Fe often fails to grasp and force me into submission.

Its not random, (apparent) altruism is a true win-win situation.
 

Lady_X

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 27, 2008
Messages
18,235
MBTI Type
ENFP
Enneagram
784
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
I'm kinda defensive unfortunately... Don't hesitate a bit to defend myself or others.
 

Kastor

New member
Joined
Jul 23, 2007
Messages
228
MBTI Type
INFP
Enneagram
4w5
It's a curious thing. Like what was already mentioned, I think I either feel that defending myself is either not worth the grief (although it'll bother me for the rest of the day) or that I just don't really feel like I'm worth defending. I don't know what it us about defending others. Maybe it feels good to show others that you're on their side, that you know what's happening is wrong and that standing by and watching is just unbarable.

I'd always be really shaken up after confrontations like that.

... Whatever happened to dueling over something? XD
 
G

garbage

Guest
Maybe in some circumstances, but isn't self-preservation all around also win-win?

In economics, it's often taught that even an economic powerhouse and a country that has fewer resources overall can both benefit from trading with each other. If both kept to themselves, they'd be worse off than if they identified and (in a sense) fended for the other's interest.

The analogy's sketchy, but it may be useful to illustrate why altruism and self-preservation aren't win-win on the same level.
 

teslashock

Geolectric
Joined
Oct 27, 2009
Messages
1,690
MBTI Type
ENTP
Enneagram
7w6
In economics, it's often taught that even an economic powerhouse and a country that has fewer resources overall can both benefit from trading with each other. If both kept to themselves, they'd be worse off than if they identified and (in a sense) fended for the other's interest.

You don't have to be isolationist to engage in self-preservation.

Self-preservation != solitude, and interacting with others to enhance your own self != altruism.
 
G

garbage

Guest
You don't have to be isolationist to engage in self-preservation.

Self-preservation != solitude, and interacting with others to enhance your own self != altruism.

I don't pretend that economics describes this phenomenon; I just mean that it's analogous.


The provider of some particular altruistic service is typically more capable of performing that service than the person who receives it; therefore, the receiver benefits more than the provider loses.

If the receiver is also altruistic in some other fashion it is perceived as a virtue because that altruism is a contribution to that communal pot of good deeds.

Global altruism allows for reciprocity of our own altruism through from some "pay it forward" model where society--the nebulous cloud that it is--benefits us somewhere down the line.
 

Unkindloving

Lungs & Lips Locked
Joined
Dec 10, 2009
Messages
2,963
MBTI Type
ENFJ
Enneagram
4w5
Typically, i'll only defend people i know and myself. There are situations where i'll speak up if i feel strongly enough, but i tend to not care enough if i'm not connected to someone in any way.
I suppose it's easier for me to do both because i have a good handle on how/who i am and view it as beneficial to others to see that as well.

The only time it's very difficult to defend myself is when it is against someone that i would defend. It makes me feel that my character has been attacked for no good reason so i withdraw.

Random mental picture- I imagine it like standing firmly beside someone i would defend. Anything or anyone facing us would be confronted with a very sturdy, strong opposition from me. Then the person beside me turns and accosts me unexpectedly so i do a double take :huh: and my guard is down on all sides. It leaves me with no choice but to clam up and withdraw, wounded.
 

Mad Hatter

Head Pigeon
Joined
Nov 3, 2009
Messages
1,087
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
-1w
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
Its not random, (apparent) altruism is a true win-win situation.

True altruism is a clear-cut win-lose situation if it isn't reciprocated. Giving to others in itself doesn't automatically make you gain something in return.
 

Poki

New member
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Dec 4, 2008
Messages
10,436
MBTI Type
STP
Instinctual Variant
sx/so
True altruism is a clear-cut win-lose situation if it isn't reciprocated. Giving to others in itself doesn't automatically make you gain something in return.

It depends on the intent. If you did it for the other person and there response in turn reciprocated then its (true)altruism, well atleast the first time, after that its (apparent)altruism.
 

Mempy

Mamma said knock you out
Joined
Jul 29, 2007
Messages
2,227
I think this has become a theme in my life, but it's one I've become aware of only recently. Actually, only with the reading of the first post have I really put together all the episodes in the recent past that evidence this. (All of, er, two.)

I said in a presentation on leadership the other day that I think caring about other people can help you be a good leader because, when you care about the interests of your team members, it's easier to demand things on their behalf from the higher-ups. In other words, it's easier to fight on behalf of others, I said, than it is to fight on behalf of yourself. I don't have any more answer for why this is true for me now than I did at the time.

Just at work today, I remarked to a coworker that I thought I'd be much clearer-headed and able to stand up for a coworker who was being insulted than I would be, in that moment, to stand up for myself. Sure, I could probably come up with a ton of decent comebacks and objections if I had time to think about it (the introvert's curse? lol), but it seems that when it's really going down, it's easier to fight on behalf of someone else than it is to fight on my own behalf. Whether I'm too accommodating, too afraid of saying the wrong thing, whether someone being such a jerk to me hurts my feelings and is so unexpected that I'm frozen, whether my empathy for others is capable of cutting through the noise and fear in my body, or whatever it might be, that's just the way I think it is, for now.
 

Kaveri

New member
Joined
Aug 18, 2007
Messages
183
MBTI Type
intp
Yep, I've often been more eager to defend other people than myself. I feel like I see the situations in which other people are included more "objectively" than the situations in which I'm included. So when I feel like I should probably defend myself, I begin to criticise my thinking ("Should I really? What if it's me who's wrong in this situation?") more than when I feel like I should probably defend another person.

Because of this mistrust in my own good judgment, I sometimes paradoxically feel glad if I see someone who has picked on me picking on someone else. Because it means that my interpretation of the situations was justified, after all, because when another person is the "victim", it's much easier to see that they're a "victim".

I don't know if anyone understood my explanation. xD
 

Mempy

Mamma said knock you out
Joined
Jul 29, 2007
Messages
2,227
Yep, I've often been more eager to defend other people than myself. I feel like I see the situations in which other people are included more "objectively" than the situations in which I'm included. So when I feel like I should probably defend myself, I begin to criticise my thinking ("Should I really? What if it's me who's wrong in this situation?") more than when I feel like I should probably defend another person.

Because of this mistrust in my own good judgment, I sometimes paradoxically feel glad if I see someone who has picked on me picking on someone else. Because it means that my interpretation of the situations was justified, after all, because when another person is the "victim", it's much easier to see that they're a "victim".

I don't know if anyone understood my explanation. xD

I did. I think you're saying that if they treat another person the same way they treated you, it proves that it wasn't about you, it was about them. Therefore, you would have been right in defending yourself and criticizing them, had you done it the first time.
 
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