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  1. #11
    Geolectric teslashock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by poki View Post
    Its not random, (apparent) altruism is a true win-win situation.
    Maybe in some circumstances, but isn't self-preservation all around also win-win?

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by teslashock View Post
    Maybe in some circumstances, but isn't self-preservation all around also win-win?
    In economics, it's often taught that even an economic powerhouse and a country that has fewer resources overall can both benefit from trading with each other. If both kept to themselves, they'd be worse off than if they identified and (in a sense) fended for the other's interest.

    The analogy's sketchy, but it may be useful to illustrate why altruism and self-preservation aren't win-win on the same level.

  3. #13
    Geolectric teslashock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by greed View Post
    In economics, it's often taught that even an economic powerhouse and a country that has fewer resources overall can both benefit from trading with each other. If both kept to themselves, they'd be worse off than if they identified and (in a sense) fended for the other's interest.
    You don't have to be isolationist to engage in self-preservation.

    Self-preservation != solitude, and interacting with others to enhance your own self != altruism.

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by teslashock View Post
    You don't have to be isolationist to engage in self-preservation.

    Self-preservation != solitude, and interacting with others to enhance your own self != altruism.
    I don't pretend that economics describes this phenomenon; I just mean that it's analogous.


    The provider of some particular altruistic service is typically more capable of performing that service than the person who receives it; therefore, the receiver benefits more than the provider loses.

    If the receiver is also altruistic in some other fashion it is perceived as a virtue because that altruism is a contribution to that communal pot of good deeds.

    Global altruism allows for reciprocity of our own altruism through from some "pay it forward" model where society--the nebulous cloud that it is--benefits us somewhere down the line.

  5. #15
    Lungs & Lips Locked Unkindloving's Avatar
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    Typically, i'll only defend people i know and myself. There are situations where i'll speak up if i feel strongly enough, but i tend to not care enough if i'm not connected to someone in any way.
    I suppose it's easier for me to do both because i have a good handle on how/who i am and view it as beneficial to others to see that as well.

    The only time it's very difficult to defend myself is when it is against someone that i would defend. It makes me feel that my character has been attacked for no good reason so i withdraw.

    Random mental picture- I imagine it like standing firmly beside someone i would defend. Anything or anyone facing us would be confronted with a very sturdy, strong opposition from me. Then the person beside me turns and accosts me unexpectedly so i do a double take and my guard is down on all sides. It leaves me with no choice but to clam up and withdraw, wounded.
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  6. #16
    Head Pigeon Mad Hatter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by poki View Post
    Its not random, (apparent) altruism is a true win-win situation.
    True altruism is a clear-cut win-lose situation if it isn't reciprocated. Giving to others in itself doesn't automatically make you gain something in return.
    IN SERIO FATVITAS.

    -τὸ γὰρ γράμμα ἀποκτέννει, τὸ δὲ πνεῦμα ζῳοποιεῖ-

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mad Hatter View Post
    True altruism is a clear-cut win-lose situation if it isn't reciprocated. Giving to others in itself doesn't automatically make you gain something in return.
    It depends on the intent. If you did it for the other person and there response in turn reciprocated then its (true)altruism, well atleast the first time, after that its (apparent)altruism.
    Im out, its been fun

  8. #18
    Mamma said knock you out Mempy's Avatar
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    I think this has become a theme in my life, but it's one I've become aware of only recently. Actually, only with the reading of the first post have I really put together all the episodes in the recent past that evidence this. (All of, er, two.)

    I said in a presentation on leadership the other day that I think caring about other people can help you be a good leader because, when you care about the interests of your team members, it's easier to demand things on their behalf from the higher-ups. In other words, it's easier to fight on behalf of others, I said, than it is to fight on behalf of yourself. I don't have any more answer for why this is true for me now than I did at the time.

    Just at work today, I remarked to a coworker that I thought I'd be much clearer-headed and able to stand up for a coworker who was being insulted than I would be, in that moment, to stand up for myself. Sure, I could probably come up with a ton of decent comebacks and objections if I had time to think about it (the introvert's curse? lol), but it seems that when it's really going down, it's easier to fight on behalf of someone else than it is to fight on my own behalf. Whether I'm too accommodating, too afraid of saying the wrong thing, whether someone being such a jerk to me hurts my feelings and is so unexpected that I'm frozen, whether my empathy for others is capable of cutting through the noise and fear in my body, or whatever it might be, that's just the way I think it is, for now.
    They're running just like you
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  9. #19
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    Yep, I've often been more eager to defend other people than myself. I feel like I see the situations in which other people are included more "objectively" than the situations in which I'm included. So when I feel like I should probably defend myself, I begin to criticise my thinking ("Should I really? What if it's me who's wrong in this situation?") more than when I feel like I should probably defend another person.

    Because of this mistrust in my own good judgment, I sometimes paradoxically feel glad if I see someone who has picked on me picking on someone else. Because it means that my interpretation of the situations was justified, after all, because when another person is the "victim", it's much easier to see that they're a "victim".

    I don't know if anyone understood my explanation. xD

  10. #20
    Mamma said knock you out Mempy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaveri View Post
    Yep, I've often been more eager to defend other people than myself. I feel like I see the situations in which other people are included more "objectively" than the situations in which I'm included. So when I feel like I should probably defend myself, I begin to criticise my thinking ("Should I really? What if it's me who's wrong in this situation?") more than when I feel like I should probably defend another person.

    Because of this mistrust in my own good judgment, I sometimes paradoxically feel glad if I see someone who has picked on me picking on someone else. Because it means that my interpretation of the situations was justified, after all, because when another person is the "victim", it's much easier to see that they're a "victim".

    I don't know if anyone understood my explanation. xD
    I did. I think you're saying that if they treat another person the same way they treated you, it proves that it wasn't about you, it was about them. Therefore, you would have been right in defending yourself and criticizing them, had you done it the first time.
    They're running just like you
    For you, and I, wooo
    So people, people, need some good ol' love

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