[INFJ] The reason INFJs find it hard to forgive

[KLessard]

I've been in a similar situation with an ENTP friend of mine for a while. He's got 100% P (NO J at all). He constistently shows up late, sleeps through things he should be at, doesn't follow through with things he says he's going to do and... has 100 million friends he still manages to hang out with.

Earlier last week he called me and needed to talk. Even after a long day at work, things scheduled after work, and being close to when I'm usually winding down for the night, I go out to meet him. I listen to him talk for an hour, then his phone rings and he talks on the phone for 10 minutes while I just sit there.

He's moving to a new place. He wanted boxes and I knew there were some at work that I could give him. I drove BACK to work at 8:30 last night to get them and said I'd meet him at my place. When he gets there, we load the boxes into his car.. I really wanted to talk about some stuff that had me down and mentioned how it was getting cold. He said he couldn't stay because he was supposed to go watch Lost with a bunch of friends..

"Thanks for not being there for me when I've been there for you, patiently waiting for you to show up, waiting for you to get off the phone call you answered when I came out to listen to YOU talk to ME." That's what I wanted to say.

I'm still a little irked at him. I honestly think it doesn't even cross his mind that all this stuff bothers me. I think that, like your friend did, he probably will move on VERY easily - he has a ton of friends he could hang out with any night of the week. I have very few. So do I want to distance myself from him? Sometimes. He hangs out with several groups of people, mine included. So to distance myself from him would actually be bad for me because I'd have to leave my group behind to do this. Not an option.

Perhaps the people we INFJs let into our lives, when they hurt us, it wounds us so deeply that we fear being 'betrayed' like that again. I think the difficulty in forgiving could be indicative of how much damage was done or how close to home the damage was.

Yes, Yes, yes. I've got to learn the P way better. Something similar's happened to me with an ISFP lately, and I totally feel like she was avoiding me. I had come all the way from Montreal to Halifax to meet her, and mentioned my visit in a letter sent a month and a half before. She gave me a big hug and sounded happy to see me, but said she didn't know I was coming and was busy that week-end (she had a good reason, she was helping an old aunt with her shopping because she had no car). I was awful disappointed but we still planned to meet at the pub where she was playing (fiddle) before the concert so I could take some pictures of her for my artwork (she's served me as model for portraits) and talk a bit. She didn't show up. When she finally arrived for the music, she saw me sitting there and came up to me with a huge smile: "Hey! Did you have a nice day?" !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Didn't even seem to care or remember about our meeting. I shook my head sadly, but frankly. She saw my face and lost her smile. "I'll come talk to you at the break," she said. I am waiting until the break. She puts her fiddle down and goes to sit with some friends and acquaintances right away. She never came to see me. I was crushed.

 

[purplesunset]

He's got 100% P (NO J at all). He constistently shows up late...

Yes, Yes, yes. I've got to learn the P way better.

I completely understand the context in which your posts were made, and I'm very sorry if this seems like I'm nitpicking about something that's beside the point, but I feel that I really must clarify this. Please don't take this the wrong way.

What you and Wyst decribed has little to with whether someone is a P or a J.

Jung originally only described INF, IST, ENT etc. The P/J axis was added by Myers-Briggs as a way to show how someone preferred to interact with the outside world.

So a J person uses the F/T axis to interact with the outside world. (In the case of INFJ's that would be Fe)

A P uses the S/N axis to interact with the outside world. (In the case of an ESTP that would be Se)


The P/J axis is therefore something that should be determined based on how the person takes in information from the outside world, and how they choose to relate to other things in the outside world.

Things like whether someone is a stickler for rules, or keeps appointments, or neatness etc. isn't really what it's about. Although, for some reason many MBTI tests try to test for P or J explicitly by asking direct questions about order/chaos etc., it really should be tested in a more indirect way than that.

That said, could a P appear more indecisive than a J? Yes. For example, if a P takes in information via intuition (S/N axis), he will take in many things holistically, and therefore see them at once from a wide variety of perspectives. After he takes in all this information, then he has to sit down and process through it. Since he was lead by his intuition to immediately see more possibilities, more time is taken to process through and filter down all that information.

A J might take that same information in via thinking (F/T axis). That information is filtered and processed immediately, instead of holistically like in the case of intuition. It is therefore much faster for the J to arrive at a conclusion on the issue because it has already been filtered down and processed by the thinking function at the moment he was taking it in. Unlike the P, he doesn't have to go back and filter it, so the J comes to decisions faster and appears more decisive.

-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-

Since I divulged all of that, I feel I need to say something more immediately applicable to the topic: Being a P is NO EXCUSE for your friends being flaky, or for them being completely tone deaf to how another person might interpret their actions. That is NOT what P/J measures.

I once had an experience where I sat down at a table with some people, and they were so busy talking amongst themselves that I might as well have been an old food stain on the table. And I was specifically invited to sit down with those people. They were just too busy enjoying their experience with familiar faces (I was the new guy in the mix), and therefore they paid little attention to how the experience would have been for me. This is what I call being "tone deaf" to another person, and I would make no excuses for those people. If I was among a group where the people were more aware and empathic, it would have been a much better experience for me. So, the point is, don't make excuses for "Tone deaf" friends, and certainly don't attribute it to their P'ness.



I also think it would help if you stop looking at the situations only in MBTI terms and think of the human condition in general. Stop saying things like "We INFJ's are this way..." because a lot of what was mentioned above could apply equally as well to other types. I say this because it's so easy to fall into a trap where we are unwilling to accommodate if we can easily resort to the "that's just the way I am" argument.

 

[Thalassa]

It's because they lead with Fi in socionics.

I'm not sure I'm following you here.

I have Fi and I am capable of profound understanding that people are neither "good" nor "bad" and that a person's behavior is not who they are. I'm not a particularly idealistic NF in the sense that I accept that what I'll call "human nature" is inherently flawed and survival-based. In many situations it's actually difficult for me to say who is "wrong" or "right" because so many complex factors are involved in personality development, circumstance, lack of communication, differing cultural values, possible physiological causes, etc.

I'm not INFJ, but I think it's healthy to walk away from someone who continually hurts you over and over in the same manner over a period of time and refuses to change their behavior towards or get help if the situation is particularly dire. That's not unforgiveness, per se, that's protecting yourself.

 

[sketchymcsketcherson]

Yes, Yes, yes. I've got to learn the P way better. Something similar's happened to me with an ISFX lately, and I totally feel like she was avoiding me. I had come all the way from Montreal to Halifax to meet her, and mentioned my visit in a letter sent a month and a half before. She gave me a big hug and sounded happy to see me, but said she didn't know I was coming and was busy that week-end (she had a good reason, she was helping an old aunt with her shopping because she had no car). I was awful disappointed but we still planned to meet at the pub where she was playing (fiddle) before the concert so I could take some pictures of her for my artwork (she's served me as model for portraits) and talk a bit. She didn't show up. When she finally arrived for the music, she saw me sitting there and came up to me with a huge smile: "Hey! Did you have a nice day?" !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Didn't even seem to care or remember about our meeting. I said "No" quite frankly. She saw my face and lost her smile. "I'll come talk to you at the break," she said. I am waiting until the break. She puts her fiddle down and goes to sit with some friends and acquaintances right away. She never came to see me. I was crushed.

Honestly, if something like that happened to me, I would be crushed as well.

It's not just that you drove all that way to see her, only to get ditched. It's that she saw your frown, and heard you say you were not happy, then specifically promised to come talk to you later on -- the promise which she broke.

I think this goes beyond the scope of P vs. J and more into the realm of "I'm such a careless extrovert that I immediately shirk all social responsibility to my true friend so that I can go hang out with the nearest group that will hang out with me."

 

[garbage]

I'm not sure I'm following you here.

I have Fi
...
I'm not INFJ

I'm just going to do the whole "quote another website" thing because it's easy to do.

Fi as dominant in Socionics is:

The individual sees reality primarity through static personal ethics and stable interpersonal bonds between individuals, including himself, where the status of such interpersonal bonds is determined by his personal ethics. The individual is very confident in evaluating the ethical or moral qualities, and their consistency, of other people. This makes the individual seem "judgemental" or "self-righteous" to people less so inclined. If he has difficulty in deciding the status of a personal relationship, he will take action to try to reach a conclusion but if that continues to elude him, he will regard the relationship as not worth it. His own sense of constancy in personal ethics and in his relationships with others is a very strong factor in his sense of self-worth.

Basically, the position of a function in Socionics has a very drastic effect on how the function plays out, so the fact that you and the INFj both use Fi doesn't hint at complete commonality in how Fi manifests itself in the two of you.

 

[Thalassa]

I'm just going to do the whole "quote another website" thing because it's easy to do.

Fi as dominant in Socionics is:



Basically, the position of a function in Socionics has a very drastic effect on how the function plays out, so the fact that you and the INFj both use Fi doesn't hint at complete commonality in how Fi manifests itself in the two of you.

I'm an ENFp in socionics.

 

[cafe]

I'm lazy and haven't read the whole thread, but I'll shoot my mouth off anyway.

I find, when someone does something that blindsides me, I have to basically rewrite everything. It's like everything I thought I knew is now suspect and must be reevaluated. Sometimes after this process, I determine that the previous perceived reality of the person in question was just wrong. Either that or they changed without my noticing. When that happens, sometimes my new reality does not include them. I don't want them to be a part of my life anymore.

Other times, I still do care about them, and don't want to write them out of my life, but I do need to keep my guard up. I'm really, really horrible at that. When I'm interacting with someone, I tend to just focus on that interaction and it's almost impossible to keep any kind of filter up or think about the fact that I could be opening myself up to be harmed. I'm pretty much all or nothing like that. When I get burned a couple of times in that situation, I will begin to act pretty flaky and distance myself.

Forgiveness is just a weird concept for me to get my head around for reasons I saw mentioned earlier in the thread. I believe that our actions are an outgrowth of who and what we are, so when someone does something hurtful, that hurtful thing must be a part of their insides somehow. I can forgive the action a lot of times, but the action still changes the way I see reality and what I might anticipate for the future.

 

[KLessard]

Honestly, if something like that happened to me, I would be crushed as well.

It's not just that you drove all that way to see her, only to get ditched. It's that she saw your frown, and heard you say you were not happy, then specifically promised to come talk to you later on -- the promise which she broke.

I think this goes beyond the scope of P vs. J and more into the realm of "I'm such a careless extrovert that I immediately shirk all social responsibility to my true friend so that I can go hang out with the nearest group that will hang out with me."

Thank you for your compassion. I'm glad to hear it's ok to feel hurt. Some people in the SJ forum said to me "You must be mega sensitive" about this. She's introverted, though. I'm having a very hard time understanding her. She's done this to me in other ways in the past, too.

 

[rogue1]

I have previously read posts where non-INFJs asked if INFJs could ever forgive, why they would keep score of bad things people had done to them, etc.

I have found an answer for myself (because I am struggling with this), and perhaps other INFJs will relate.

INFJs are all about Being.
If someone hurts me in a way that really offends my idealistic principles, I am very vexed to discover how that person really IS. It is difficult for me to make a distinction between a bad thing someone DID and what the person IS like. I feel that this wrong doing shows the offender's real nature, and I don't want to be around a liar, around a superficial friend, around a prideful person, etc. (Very type One, I know).
The people who offend me in this way and make me feel like giving the doorslam are usually those I respect the most and saw as role models. Now, I don't want to have a liar, vain, prideful, etc. role model, do I?

I go from ridiculously admirative to almost hateful. It's all about disappointment.

I am learning to embrace people as they are and accepting the fact that no human being is perfect. I am learning to separate actions from being. Although it is a greater challenge when hurtful actions are repeated and appear as a constant.

For example, one of my childhood best friends was a SFP. Another friend is ISFJ (she was closer to this SFP than me). We both grew really tired of having this friend letting us down, being ungrateful, not showing up when she said she would, using us, etc. We both ended up taking a distance and we barely ever see this girl now. We also feel like she's moved on on us (she moves on people easily). So. What is forgiveness here? This is a mystery to me, because it seems obvious that I cannot embrace this friend's nature. I don't agree with it. I seem to see forgiveness as total love and reconciliation taking place. I guess forgiveness sometimes means peace of mind and no bitterness, but a possible distant relationship.
Well, in my book, distant relationship=conflict.

Any tips? Any thoughts?

It was very difficult for me to make the distinction...especially with someone I want to follow, love, or care about. As I began to mature I better understood that sometimes good people make some bad choices. Looking in the mirror taught me the most about forgiveness.
Repeated hurtful actions...can be forgiven, but it creates lots of distance. If I have an overall distrust of someone the relationship will not last. I would give them enough distance that they would never know I was gone. Forgiven, Yes. They dont have to be perfect, No....but I dont want to be around you.

For me, forgiving isn't even the issue, people are just people, warts and all. It's the trouble with FORGETTING that starts the distancing. It is about disappointment that breaks something in the friendship that seemingly can't be fixed no matter how much you try.

Very well put.
For me it is the disappointment that breaks something in me, and the relationship "seemingly" cannot be fixed...sigh...no matter how hard me/they try.

Well put.

I don't tend to doorslam people, or keep a tally of hurts. That seems pointless to me. If there's an ongoing problem, I do my best to address it. If a mutual understanding cannot be reached, I don't necessarily hold it against them, but I do stop putting forth the effort, and I do walk away. It's not as black-and-white as, you're a good person, or a bad person, etc. I care about people, and I can't help but to do so, and when they've wronged me, I still care, but if the damage is irreparable, then I distance myself. If the person actually puts forth the effort to work on their problems, and approaches me later on, of course I'd like to resolve it further. The friendship may or not be the same as it was, depending on how well said issue was resolved. But if they try, I'm there.

I don't keep a tally of hurts, because I always get hurt. ...but easy to forgive.
Finding that mutual understanding is the most difficult for me, because I want "the rules of engagement" to be clear. I don't hold it against someone either, but I do stop putting forth any effort and walk away. Having the same kind of relationship, most likely, will never happen...maybe if the lines are very clear. I just don't want to waste my life living under that kind of stressful hurt.

 

[BlackCat]

I'm just going to do the whole "quote another website" thing because it's easy to do.

Fi as dominant in Socionics is:



Basically, the position of a function in Socionics has a very drastic effect on how the function plays out, so the fact that you and the INFj both use Fi doesn't hint at complete commonality in how Fi manifests itself in the two of you.

Thank you greed...

 

[garbage]

I'm an ENFp in socionics.

Yeah, figured. My post was written with that assumption in mind.

 

[violaine]

Well put.

I don't tend to doorslam people, or keep a tally of hurts. That seems pointless to me. If there's an ongoing problem, I do my best to address it. If a mutual understanding cannot be reached, I don't necessarily hold it against them, but I do stop putting forth the effort, and I do walk away. It's not as black-and-white as, you're a good person, or a bad person, etc. I care about people, and I can't help but to do so, and when they've wronged me, I still care, but if the damage is irreparable, then I distance myself. If the person actually puts forth the effort to work on their problems, and approaches me later on, of course I'd like to resolve it further. The friendship may or not be the same as it was, depending on how well said issue was resolved. But if they try, I'm there.

+1. I extend myself for the sake of friendly relations but am never too solicitous. I think mutuality is important.

I think this is where the key lies. The ability to understand that people are only living in their own story. They are not necessarily trying to hurt you, or be less than ideal, they are just living out the path their lives have taken. Keep people and their actions separate from yourself and it makes living among people more bearable, and less angstful.

+1. Though sometimes I need a minute to find my way back to this particular ideal when someone is bugging the living daylights out of me. But I recognize it as my glitch and that it's fine not to get along with everybody.

I personally don't buy into the religious throwback teaching that people are inherently flawed/sinners. I view people as perfect in their own ways, with their own idiosyncracies, which I may or may not like. It's not the people I dislike, it might just be the way they choose to lie that I dislike. Or the easy way out they prefer to take, when I hold integrity dear. So for me, it comes down to becoming fatigued with not being able to meet somewhere close to the middle, for both of our needs. If I end up feeling like they are not an asset to my life, I will want to move away from them in order to free up my energy for someone or something that will prove more advantageous because I have only a certain amount of energy to give to objects outside myself and my Ni demands that be as pristine as possible so that I may grow. And that, I believe IS inherently INFJ. Other types might be more likely to come and go, or see benefit in relating with all objects or people they come into contact with.

Ugh, yes. I was bought up with that mindset all around and I never bought it. It seemed at odds with the exhortation to be compassionate. I think everyone is on their own road.

Sometimes I wish I could cut people out a little sooner than I typically do when we are mismatched. I have only ever doorslammed an ex or two. When I think about it I've been close to people who have kind of cost me for want of a better term. I don't typically dwell on it or ever see myself as a victim, just that we are at different levels of sensitivity/focus in life. I honestly don't think someone's behavior has a whole lot to do with me. But the fact is I'm not drawn to such people after a time. There's no reason for me to be on intimate terms with people I don't vibe with.

If I could guess at why some INFJs may find it hard to forgive... I would think it's a mixture of being highly principled, not liking being vulnerable, extending themselves somewhat idealistically despite that but getting hurt. I think one has to take it on one's own shoulders when they make a decision to reach out and just accept whatever consequences come of that. I can see being disappointed in others due to having high standards as being a particular issue for Enneagram 1s. (Not to pick on E1s.) I'm close to an E1 irl and we lock horns because to me she seems to not see people through the principles she holds them and herself too. She's pretty hard on herself and others by extension.

It's also been discussed before but I think that other people can easily drain Introverts. So difficult interactions may tend to 'scar' us up a little more easily if we aren't careful just by virtue of the fact that they are extra draining. Cutting off from people may look like being unforgiving when it is merely a function of trying to regroup.

 

[KLessard]

I personally don't buy into the religious throwback teaching that people are inherently flawed/sinners. I view people as perfect in their own ways, with their own idiosyncracies, which I may or may not like.

Perfection isn't part of the human nature anymore, in my opinion. I believe both realities are true. Sin exists, but so do idiosyncrasies. I am learning to make a distinction. I do think some hurtful actions are rooted in sin, for example selfishness or pride.

 

[Space_Oddity]

Yes, Yes, yes. I've got to learn the P way better. Something similar's happened to me with an ISFX lately, and I totally feel like she was avoiding me. I had come all the way from Montreal to Halifax to meet her, and mentioned my visit in a letter sent a month and a half before. She gave me a big hug and sounded happy to see me, but said she didn't know I was coming and was busy that week-end (she had a good reason, she was helping an old aunt with her shopping because she had no car). I was awful disappointed but we still planned to meet at the pub where she was playing (fiddle) before the concert so I could take some pictures of her for my artwork (she's served me as model for portraits) and talk a bit. She didn't show up. When she finally arrived for the music, she saw me sitting there and came up to me with a huge smile: "Hey! Did you have a nice day?" !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Didn't even seem to care or remember about our meeting. I said "No" quite frankly. She saw my face and lost her smile. "I'll come talk to you at the break," she said. I am waiting until the break. She puts her fiddle down and goes to sit with some friends and acquaintances right away. She never came to see me. I was crushed.

KLessard,

obviously I would need a much broader context of your friendship with this girl AND her perspective to judge this situation more objectively, but if you don't mind I'd try to offer another point of view (which might of course have nothing to do with reality, but that's always the risk on forums). I'll venture so far as to assume your friend is a Fi-dom, as your situation feels slightly familiar to me.

I understand why you felt hurt by your friend's behavior and you were certainly entitled to it - she acted impolite, evasive and definitely a little stupid. However, if this girl has been your friend, maybe you should try to understand WHY she behaved the way she did, and not just judge her right away for being unforgiveably "flawed". I know I have behaved in a little similar way in one of my friendships with an INFJ before, and I'm far from being proud of it because it was pretty childish and inconsiderate of me back then; nevertheless, I definitely behaved like that for a reason, and the reason lied directly in my friendship with the INFJ. Also, I have an ISFP sister and I can imagine she could behave similarly and what could be her possible reasons.

First of all, ask yourself how had your friendship with this girl been going before you wrote her you'd come. Had she acted evasive (or another kind of "flawed") before, or did this come completely out of the blue? If she had, how did you deal with it? Did you confront her and upbraid her for behavior? Did you directly make her know you were hurt and disappointed by it? Did you make her feel she was judged?

If you did some of these things, it's pretty likely she had already been feeling very pressured by you by the time this incident happened. And as far as I can tell, being emotionally pressured is probably the last thing in the world Fi-doms would like or tolerate. Fi-doms go by the rule "don't do anything to others you wouldn't like them to do to you", and making anyone feel bad by directly emotionally pressuring them is definitely a very undesirable thing they neither do nor tolerate. They also don't typically judge people and rather try to take them just as they are, and consequently they don't like being judged as well. Perhaps for you, it's natural to show your feelings - the positive ones as well and the negative ones, and you expect others to respect them. But for Fi-doms, it's just as natural to keep their feelings hidden - especially the negative ones. It's possible your friend felt pressured and overwhelmed by negative feelings you possibly expressed towards her and she also felt you didn't have any right to judge her, and her reaction was a withdrawl.

(Bearing in mind I might be completely and utterly off in this analysis altogether ), this might not sound logical to you as until this incident she still acted friendly towards you. However, the withdrawal might have been very gradual, and because your friend certainly liked you a lot and formed a strong bond with you over the time of your friendship, she struggled with the tendency to withdraw and did her best to look like nothing was happening. You might perceive this as dishonest, and it indeed is kind of dishonest (I hope I wouldn't act so stupid anymore), but it isn't done with bad intention; it's mostly just a desperate effort to avoid conflict, which is very draining and uncomfortable for Fi-doms, and they often kind of assume it is that way with everyone.

So, my interpretation of your friend's behavior might go something like this: you wrote her you'd come, but she really didn't expect you (because if she's anything like my ISFP sister, she doesn't really have a strong notion of future commitment and she might have just forgotten about it), and when she saw you she was trying her best to sound really happy. It's possible she really was happy to see you (although you were a commitment she didn't expect => pressure), and if you suppressed your feelings and tried to look as if it didn't matter, everything still could be somewhat ok. However, you let her know you were very disappointed, which put even more pressure on her. It wasn't very nice of her that she didn't show up before the concert, but if she's anything like my sis, she might just be evasive as hell. (I know that with my sis and another ISFP friend of mine this is really nothing personal. It's just a quirk.) When she saw you later she was very nice to you again (so that you reacted nice as well, I suppose), but when you again openly displayed negative emotions towards her, she withdrew completely. She probably failed to put up with so much emotional pressure anymore and chose the easiest (even though probably the least mature) way how to get out of it: ignorance. However, it's very likely that she didn't really ignore you; I suppose she felt pretty ashamed to treat you like this and her self-conscience wasn't clear about it at all, but at the moment she was too overwhelmed to do anything else. I'm afraid that no one likes to be friends with people who constantly make them feel bad.

Maybe I'm reading too much into this and your friend's character really is flawed. But I think it's important to realize that when you take up a righteous attitude towards someone, it's very useful to imagine what possibly made them act the way they did and try to understand, because you almost always find out that in complicated interpersonal situations there are two people to blame and the one you feel so bitter towards has probably also a good many things to forgive you. Of course that selfishness and pride are bad things, but before we start accusing others of such "sins" we should look deep inside our hearts and ask ourselves if we haven't commited them as well. The moment we find out we're just as flawed as everyone else it becomes a lot easier to forgive.

 

[Stanton Moore]

Its the confluence of Si and PE

 

[Lurker]

I find, when someone does something that blindsides me, I have to basically rewrite everything. It's like everything I thought I knew is now suspect and must be reevaluated. Sometimes after this process, I determine that the previous perceived reality of the person in question was just wrong. Either that or they changed without my noticing.

I could have written this myself, and I'm an INTP! Seriously, when someone does something I consider completely out of character for the person I thought I knew, I feel like I don't know that person anymore... or that I never knew that person at all; I was wrong about who he or she was. I don't always separate the behavior from the person, because, well...some things are important enough to stick to someone. Then again, I don't like to be a hardliner either and think in terms of "you are what you do," because I don't exactly believe that....I waiver on this issue, and it drives me nuts.

 

[Tiltyred]

KLessard,

obviously I would need a much broader context of your friendship with this girl AND her perspective to judge this situation more objectively, but if you don't mind I'd try to offer another point of view (which might of course have nothing to do with reality, but that's always the risk on forums). I'll venture so far as to assume your friend is a Fi-dom, as your situation feels slightly familiar to me.

I understand why you felt hurt by your friend's behavior and you were certainly entitled to it - she acted impolite, evasive and definitely a little stupid. However, if this girl has been your friend, maybe you should try to understand WHY she behaved the way she did, and not just judge her right away for being unforgiveably "flawed". I know I have behaved in a little similar way in one of my friendships with an INFJ before, and I'm far from being proud of it because it was pretty childish and inconsiderate of me back then; nevertheless, I definitely behaved like that for a reason, and the reason lied directly in my friendship with the INFJ. Also, I have an ISFP sister and I can imagine she could behave similarly and what could be her possible reasons.

First of all, ask yourself how had your friendship with this girl been going before you wrote her you'd come. Had she acted evasive (or another kind of "flawed") before, or did this come completely out of the blue? If she had, how did you deal with it? Did you confront her and upbraid her for behavior? Did you directly make her know you were hurt and disappointed by it? Did you make her feel she was judged?

If you did some of these things, it's pretty likely she had already been feeling very pressured by you by the time this incident happened. And as far as I can tell, being emotionally pressured is probably the last thing in the world Fi-doms would like or tolerate. Fi-doms go by the rule "don't do anything to others you wouldn't like them to do to you", and making anyone feel bad by directly emotionally pressuring them is definitely a very undesirable thing they neither do nor tolerate. They also don't typically judge people and rather try to take them just as they are, and consequently they don't like being judged as well. Perhaps for you, it's natural to show your feelings - the positive ones as well and the negative ones, and you expect others to respect them. But for Fi-doms, it's just as natural to keep their feelings hidden - especially the negative ones. It's possible your friend felt pressured and overwhelmed by negative feelings you possibly expressed towards her and she also felt you didn't have any right to judge her, and her reaction was a withdrawl.

(Bearing in mind I might be completely and utterly off in this analysis altogether ), this might not sound logical to you as until this incident she still acted friendly towards you. However, the withdrawal might have been very gradual, and because your friend certainly liked you a lot and formed a strong bond with you over the time of your friendship, she struggled with the tendency to withdraw and did her best to look like nothing was happening. You might perceive this as dishonest, and it indeed is kind of dishonest (I hope I wouldn't act so stupid anymore), but it isn't done with bad intention; it's mostly just a desperate effort to avoid conflict, which is very draining and uncomfortable for Fi-doms, and they often kind of assume it is that way with everyone.

So, my interpretation of your friend's behavior might go something like this: you wrote her you'd come, but she really didn't expect you (because if she's anything like my ISFP sister, she doesn't really have a strong notion of future commitment and she might have just forgotten about it), and when she saw you she was trying her best to sound really happy. It's possible she really was happy to see you (although you were a commitment she didn't expect => pressure), and if you suppressed your feelings and tried to look as if it didn't matter, everything still could be somewhat ok. However, you let her know you were very disappointed, which put even more pressure on her. It wasn't very nice of her that she didn't show up before the concert, but if she's anything like my sis, she might just be evasive as hell. (I know that with my sis and another ISFP friend of mine this is really nothing personal. It's just a quirk.) When she saw you later she was very nice to you again (so that you reacted nice as well, I suppose), but when you again openly displayed negative emotions towards her, she withdrew completely. She probably failed to put up with so much emotional pressure anymore and chose the easiest (even though probably the least mature) way how to get out of it: ignorance. However, it's very likely that she didn't really ignore you; I suppose she felt pretty ashamed to treat you like this and her self-conscience wasn't clear about it at all, but at the moment she was too overwhelmed to do anything else. I'm afraid that no one likes to be friends with people who constantly make them feel bad.

Maybe I'm reading too much into this and your friend's character really is flawed. But I think it's important to realize that when you take up a righteous attitude towards someone, it's very useful to imagine what possibly made them act the way they did and try to understand, because you almost always find out that in complicated interpersonal situations there are two people to blame and the one you feel so bitter towards has probably also a good many things to forgive you. Of course that selfishness and pride are bad things, but before we start accusing others of such "sins" we should look deep inside our hearts and ask ourselves if we haven't commited them as well. The moment we find out we're just as flawed as everyone else it becomes a lot easier to forgive.

I can't believe you're serious.

 

[KLessard]

KLessard,

obviously I would need a much broader context of your friendship with this girl AND her perspective to judge this situation more objectively, but if you don't mind I'd try to offer another point of view (which might of course have nothing to do with reality, but that's always the risk on forums). I'll venture so far as to assume your friend is a Fi-dom, as your situation feels slightly familiar to me.

I understand why you felt hurt by your friend's behavior and you were certainly entitled to it - she acted impolite, evasive and definitely a little stupid. However, if this girl has been your friend, maybe you should try to understand WHY she behaved the way she did, and not just judge her right away for being unforgiveably "flawed". I know I have behaved in a little similar way in one of my friendships with an INFJ before, and I'm far from being proud of it because it was pretty childish and inconsiderate of me back then; nevertheless, I definitely behaved like that for a reason, and the reason lied directly in my friendship with the INFJ. Also, I have an ISFP sister and I can imagine she could behave similarly and what could be her possible reasons.

First of all, ask yourself how had your friendship with this girl been going before you wrote her you'd come. Had she acted evasive (or another kind of "flawed") before, or did this come completely out of the blue? If she had, how did you deal with it? Did you confront her and upbraid her for behavior? Did you directly make her know you were hurt and disappointed by it? Did you make her feel she was judged?

If you did some of these things, it's pretty likely she had already been feeling very pressured by you by the time this incident happened. And as far as I can tell, being emotionally pressured is probably the last thing in the world Fi-doms would like or tolerate. Fi-doms go by the rule "don't do anything to others you wouldn't like them to do to you", and making anyone feel bad by directly emotionally pressuring them is definitely a very undesirable thing they neither do nor tolerate. They also don't typically judge people and rather try to take them just as they are, and consequently they don't like being judged as well. Perhaps for you, it's natural to show your feelings - the positive ones as well and the negative ones, and you expect others to respect them. But for Fi-doms, it's just as natural to keep their feelings hidden - especially the negative ones. It's possible your friend felt pressured and overwhelmed by negative feelings you possibly expressed towards her and she also felt you didn't have any right to judge her, and her reaction was a withdrawl.

(Bearing in mind I might be completely and utterly off in this analysis altogether ), this might not sound logical to you as until this incident she still acted friendly towards you. However, the withdrawal might have been very gradual, and because your friend certainly liked you a lot and formed a strong bond with you over the time of your friendship, she struggled with the tendency to withdraw and did her best to look like nothing was happening. You might perceive this as dishonest, and it indeed is kind of dishonest (I hope I wouldn't act so stupid anymore), but it isn't done with bad intention; it's mostly just a desperate effort to avoid conflict, which is very draining and uncomfortable for Fi-doms, and they often kind of assume it is that way with everyone.

So, my interpretation of your friend's behavior might go something like this: you wrote her you'd come, but she really didn't expect you (because if she's anything like my ISFP sister, she doesn't really have a strong notion of future commitment and she might have just forgotten about it), and when she saw you she was trying her best to sound really happy. It's possible she really was happy to see you (although you were a commitment she didn't expect => pressure), and if you suppressed your feelings and tried to look as if it didn't matter, everything still could be somewhat ok. However, you let her know you were very disappointed, which put even more pressure on her. It wasn't very nice of her that she didn't show up before the concert, but if she's anything like my sis, she might just be evasive as hell. (I know that with my sis and another ISFP friend of mine this is really nothing personal. It's just a quirk.) When she saw you later she was very nice to you again (so that you reacted nice as well, I suppose), but when you again openly displayed negative emotions towards her, she withdrew completely. She probably failed to put up with so much emotional pressure anymore and chose the easiest (even though probably the least mature) way how to get out of it: ignorance. However, it's very likely that she didn't really ignore you; I suppose she felt pretty ashamed to treat you like this and her self-conscience wasn't clear about it at all, but at the moment she was too overwhelmed to do anything else. I'm afraid that no one likes to be friends with people who constantly make them feel bad.

Maybe I'm reading too much into this and your friend's character really is flawed. But I think it's important to realize that when you take up a righteous attitude towards someone, it's very useful to imagine what possibly made them act the way they did and try to understand, because you almost always find out that in complicated interpersonal situations there are two people to blame and the one you feel so bitter towards has probably also a good many things to forgive you. Of course that selfishness and pride are bad things, but before we start accusing others of such "sins" we should look deep inside our hearts and ask ourselves if we haven't commited them as well. The moment we find out we're just as flawed as everyone else it becomes a lot easier to forgive.

I have no problem believing I am a sinner, and talking about sin was just a general belief for me, I wasn't thinking of this girl in particular. I'm the first to feel guilty and hate myself when things go bad. I have also examined myself very intensely about this whole thing. I wrote to her after the incident to apologize about my frankness and kindly explain how I felt, and she didn't care to answer me.

This girl is not a close friend of mine. She is an acquaintance, and we just got back in touch after many years because of the portrait I painted of her. I didn't judge her openly about the incident (even if I couldn't help feeling angry inside about what happened) but been very patient with her, and I don't remember saying here that she was "flawed" or anything (also, she is not the same friend mentioned in the first post). This girl has a tendency not to keep her word, and did it more than once. I dared to confront her once, many years ago because my heart was broken over something deeply meaningful to me and I waited two years to speak out about it. I did it very gently too (I actually asked her if I had hurt her in some way and if that was the reason she didn't keep her word; I expressed my own feelings of sadness and disappointment, and she wrote back that I hadn't hurt her in any way, and she couldn't see how I could have). I respect this person so much, I can never be very rough or judgmental about what I say to her because I don't want to ruin the connection. I always weigh my words carefully before I speak to her. But my trust and respect are dwindling away at the present. She is an ISFP with ISFJ values, it's very strange. You certainly read my story through your own life's glasses, because nothing you described there happened (the pressure and all); we don't know each other well enough so it could have happened. Unless she reads my silence as judgment, because this is what happens when she hurts me. I just clam up and keep quiet, because I would cry or something.

 

[scortia]

I can totally relate. Honestly my ability to forgive is purely based on the sincerity of the other party's apology. In the few altercations I've experienced (all of them I confronted because the other person was a user and/or lied for self-centered reasons) I have yet to get an apology. And in those few cases, that's what ate me up for months after we stopped talking. The lack of growth and change needed for proper closure. That all this anger happened for naught.

My position has always been that it's silly to forgive a person who doesn't believe they need to be forgiven for anything. I have a few situations, like with my father after my folks got divorced, where my pity overrides my rage over that person not taking responsibility. I guess in the end the NF compassion can override everything.

 

[Virtual ghost]

Well, recovering from a relationship with a typical ENTP certainly takes time. So people should not be too hard on INFJs because of this trait.

It is interesting that some people consider this post worthy of "reping".


Yes, this a sarcasam but with few grains of honest opinion.