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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    I'm an ENFp in socionics.
    Yeah, figured. My post was written with that assumption in mind.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lexicon View Post
    Well put.

    I don't tend to doorslam people, or keep a tally of hurts. That seems pointless to me. If there's an ongoing problem, I do my best to address it. If a mutual understanding cannot be reached, I don't necessarily hold it against them, but I do stop putting forth the effort, and I do walk away. It's not as black-and-white as, you're a good person, or a bad person, etc. I care about people, and I can't help but to do so, and when they've wronged me, I still care, but if the damage is irreparable, then I distance myself. If the person actually puts forth the effort to work on their problems, and approaches me later on, of course I'd like to resolve it further. The friendship may or not be the same as it was, depending on how well said issue was resolved. But if they try, I'm there.
    +1. I extend myself for the sake of friendly relations but am never too solicitous. I think mutuality is important.

    Quote Originally Posted by aphrodite-gone-awry View Post
    I think this is where the key lies. The ability to understand that people are only living in their own story. They are not necessarily trying to hurt you, or be less than ideal, they are just living out the path their lives have taken. Keep people and their actions separate from yourself and it makes living among people more bearable, and less angstful.
    +1. Though sometimes I need a minute to find my way back to this particular ideal when someone is bugging the living daylights out of me. But I recognize it as my glitch and that it's fine not to get along with everybody.

    Quote Originally Posted by aphrodite-gone-awry View Post
    I personally don't buy into the religious throwback teaching that people are inherently flawed/sinners. I view people as perfect in their own ways, with their own idiosyncracies, which I may or may not like. It's not the people I dislike, it might just be the way they choose to lie that I dislike. Or the easy way out they prefer to take, when I hold integrity dear. So for me, it comes down to becoming fatigued with not being able to meet somewhere close to the middle, for both of our needs. If I end up feeling like they are not an asset to my life, I will want to move away from them in order to free up my energy for someone or something that will prove more advantageous because I have only a certain amount of energy to give to objects outside myself and my Ni demands that be as pristine as possible so that I may grow. And that, I believe IS inherently INFJ. Other types might be more likely to come and go, or see benefit in relating with all objects or people they come into contact with.
    Ugh, yes. I was bought up with that mindset all around and I never bought it. It seemed at odds with the exhortation to be compassionate. I think everyone is on their own road.

    Sometimes I wish I could cut people out a little sooner than I typically do when we are mismatched. I have only ever doorslammed an ex or two. When I think about it I've been close to people who have kind of cost me for want of a better term. I don't typically dwell on it or ever see myself as a victim, just that we are at different levels of sensitivity/focus in life. I honestly don't think someone's behavior has a whole lot to do with me. But the fact is I'm not drawn to such people after a time. There's no reason for me to be on intimate terms with people I don't vibe with.

    If I could guess at why some INFJs may find it hard to forgive... I would think it's a mixture of being highly principled, not liking being vulnerable, extending themselves somewhat idealistically despite that but getting hurt. I think one has to take it on one's own shoulders when they make a decision to reach out and just accept whatever consequences come of that. I can see being disappointed in others due to having high standards as being a particular issue for Enneagram 1s. (Not to pick on E1s.) I'm close to an E1 irl and we lock horns because to me she seems to not see people through the principles she holds them and herself too. She's pretty hard on herself and others by extension.

    It's also been discussed before but I think that other people can easily drain Introverts. So difficult interactions may tend to 'scar' us up a little more easily if we aren't careful just by virtue of the fact that they are extra draining. Cutting off from people may look like being unforgiving when it is merely a function of trying to regroup.

  3. #33
    Aspiring Troens Ridder KLessard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aphrodite-gone-awry View Post
    I personally don't buy into the religious throwback teaching that people are inherently flawed/sinners. I view people as perfect in their own ways, with their own idiosyncracies, which I may or may not like.
    Perfection isn't part of the human nature anymore, in my opinion. I believe both realities are true. Sin exists, but so do idiosyncrasies. I am learning to make a distinction. I do think some hurtful actions are rooted in sin, for example selfishness or pride.

  4. #34
    Senior Member Space_Oddity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KLessard View Post
    Yes, Yes, yes. I've got to learn the P way better. Something similar's happened to me with an ISFX lately, and I totally feel like she was avoiding me. I had come all the way from Montreal to Halifax to meet her, and mentioned my visit in a letter sent a month and a half before. She gave me a big hug and sounded happy to see me, but said she didn't know I was coming and was busy that week-end (she had a good reason, she was helping an old aunt with her shopping because she had no car). I was awful disappointed but we still planned to meet at the pub where she was playing (fiddle) before the concert so I could take some pictures of her for my artwork (she's served me as model for portraits) and talk a bit. She didn't show up. When she finally arrived for the music, she saw me sitting there and came up to me with a huge smile: "Hey! Did you have a nice day?" !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Didn't even seem to care or remember about our meeting. I said "No" quite frankly. She saw my face and lost her smile. "I'll come talk to you at the break," she said. I am waiting until the break. She puts her fiddle down and goes to sit with some friends and acquaintances right away. She never came to see me. I was crushed.
    KLessard,

    obviously I would need a much broader context of your friendship with this girl AND her perspective to judge this situation more objectively, but if you don't mind I'd try to offer another point of view (which might of course have nothing to do with reality, but that's always the risk on forums). I'll venture so far as to assume your friend is a Fi-dom, as your situation feels slightly familiar to me.

    I understand why you felt hurt by your friend's behavior and you were certainly entitled to it - she acted impolite, evasive and definitely a little stupid. However, if this girl has been your friend, maybe you should try to understand WHY she behaved the way she did, and not just judge her right away for being unforgiveably "flawed". I know I have behaved in a little similar way in one of my friendships with an INFJ before, and I'm far from being proud of it because it was pretty childish and inconsiderate of me back then; nevertheless, I definitely behaved like that for a reason, and the reason lied directly in my friendship with the INFJ. Also, I have an ISFP sister and I can imagine she could behave similarly and what could be her possible reasons.

    First of all, ask yourself how had your friendship with this girl been going before you wrote her you'd come. Had she acted evasive (or another kind of "flawed") before, or did this come completely out of the blue? If she had, how did you deal with it? Did you confront her and upbraid her for behavior? Did you directly make her know you were hurt and disappointed by it? Did you make her feel she was judged?

    If you did some of these things, it's pretty likely she had already been feeling very pressured by you by the time this incident happened. And as far as I can tell, being emotionally pressured is probably the last thing in the world Fi-doms would like or tolerate. Fi-doms go by the rule "don't do anything to others you wouldn't like them to do to you", and making anyone feel bad by directly emotionally pressuring them is definitely a very undesirable thing they neither do nor tolerate. They also don't typically judge people and rather try to take them just as they are, and consequently they don't like being judged as well. Perhaps for you, it's natural to show your feelings - the positive ones as well and the negative ones, and you expect others to respect them. But for Fi-doms, it's just as natural to keep their feelings hidden - especially the negative ones. It's possible your friend felt pressured and overwhelmed by negative feelings you possibly expressed towards her and she also felt you didn't have any right to judge her, and her reaction was a withdrawl.

    (Bearing in mind I might be completely and utterly off in this analysis altogether ), this might not sound logical to you as until this incident she still acted friendly towards you. However, the withdrawal might have been very gradual, and because your friend certainly liked you a lot and formed a strong bond with you over the time of your friendship, she struggled with the tendency to withdraw and did her best to look like nothing was happening. You might perceive this as dishonest, and it indeed is kind of dishonest (I hope I wouldn't act so stupid anymore), but it isn't done with bad intention; it's mostly just a desperate effort to avoid conflict, which is very draining and uncomfortable for Fi-doms, and they often kind of assume it is that way with everyone.

    So, my interpretation of your friend's behavior might go something like this: you wrote her you'd come, but she really didn't expect you (because if she's anything like my ISFP sister, she doesn't really have a strong notion of future commitment and she might have just forgotten about it), and when she saw you she was trying her best to sound really happy. It's possible she really was happy to see you (although you were a commitment she didn't expect => pressure), and if you suppressed your feelings and tried to look as if it didn't matter, everything still could be somewhat ok. However, you let her know you were very disappointed, which put even more pressure on her. It wasn't very nice of her that she didn't show up before the concert, but if she's anything like my sis, she might just be evasive as hell. (I know that with my sis and another ISFP friend of mine this is really nothing personal. It's just a quirk.) When she saw you later she was very nice to you again (so that you reacted nice as well, I suppose), but when you again openly displayed negative emotions towards her, she withdrew completely. She probably failed to put up with so much emotional pressure anymore and chose the easiest (even though probably the least mature) way how to get out of it: ignorance. However, it's very likely that she didn't really ignore you; I suppose she felt pretty ashamed to treat you like this and her self-conscience wasn't clear about it at all, but at the moment she was too overwhelmed to do anything else. I'm afraid that no one likes to be friends with people who constantly make them feel bad.

    Maybe I'm reading too much into this and your friend's character really is flawed. But I think it's important to realize that when you take up a righteous attitude towards someone, it's very useful to imagine what possibly made them act the way they did and try to understand, because you almost always find out that in complicated interpersonal situations there are two people to blame and the one you feel so bitter towards has probably also a good many things to forgive you. Of course that selfishness and pride are bad things, but before we start accusing others of such "sins" we should look deep inside our hearts and ask ourselves if we haven't commited them as well. The moment we find out we're just as flawed as everyone else it becomes a lot easier to forgive.
    Her head hung down
    Gazed at earth, finally keen,
    As the rabbit at the stoat,
    Till the earth was sky,
    Sky that was green,
    And brown clouds passed
    Like chestnut leaves along the ground.

    - SUSAN ANN AND IMMORTALITY, T. E. Hulme

  5. #35
    morose bourgeoisie
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    Its the confluence of Si and PE

  6. #36
    Senior Member Lurker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    I find, when someone does something that blindsides me, I have to basically rewrite everything. It's like everything I thought I knew is now suspect and must be reevaluated. Sometimes after this process, I determine that the previous perceived reality of the person in question was just wrong. Either that or they changed without my noticing.
    I could have written this myself, and I'm an INTP! Seriously, when someone does something I consider completely out of character for the person I thought I knew, I feel like I don't know that person anymore... or that I never knew that person at all; I was wrong about who he or she was. I don't always separate the behavior from the person, because, well...some things are important enough to stick to someone. Then again, I don't like to be a hardliner either and think in terms of "you are what you do," because I don't exactly believe that....I waiver on this issue, and it drives me nuts.

  7. #37
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Space_Oddity View Post
    KLessard,

    obviously I would need a much broader context of your friendship with this girl AND her perspective to judge this situation more objectively, but if you don't mind I'd try to offer another point of view (which might of course have nothing to do with reality, but that's always the risk on forums). I'll venture so far as to assume your friend is a Fi-dom, as your situation feels slightly familiar to me.

    I understand why you felt hurt by your friend's behavior and you were certainly entitled to it - she acted impolite, evasive and definitely a little stupid. However, if this girl has been your friend, maybe you should try to understand WHY she behaved the way she did, and not just judge her right away for being unforgiveably "flawed". I know I have behaved in a little similar way in one of my friendships with an INFJ before, and I'm far from being proud of it because it was pretty childish and inconsiderate of me back then; nevertheless, I definitely behaved like that for a reason, and the reason lied directly in my friendship with the INFJ. Also, I have an ISFP sister and I can imagine she could behave similarly and what could be her possible reasons.

    First of all, ask yourself how had your friendship with this girl been going before you wrote her you'd come. Had she acted evasive (or another kind of "flawed") before, or did this come completely out of the blue? If she had, how did you deal with it? Did you confront her and upbraid her for behavior? Did you directly make her know you were hurt and disappointed by it? Did you make her feel she was judged?

    If you did some of these things, it's pretty likely she had already been feeling very pressured by you by the time this incident happened. And as far as I can tell, being emotionally pressured is probably the last thing in the world Fi-doms would like or tolerate. Fi-doms go by the rule "don't do anything to others you wouldn't like them to do to you", and making anyone feel bad by directly emotionally pressuring them is definitely a very undesirable thing they neither do nor tolerate. They also don't typically judge people and rather try to take them just as they are, and consequently they don't like being judged as well. Perhaps for you, it's natural to show your feelings - the positive ones as well and the negative ones, and you expect others to respect them. But for Fi-doms, it's just as natural to keep their feelings hidden - especially the negative ones. It's possible your friend felt pressured and overwhelmed by negative feelings you possibly expressed towards her and she also felt you didn't have any right to judge her, and her reaction was a withdrawl.

    (Bearing in mind I might be completely and utterly off in this analysis altogether ), this might not sound logical to you as until this incident she still acted friendly towards you. However, the withdrawal might have been very gradual, and because your friend certainly liked you a lot and formed a strong bond with you over the time of your friendship, she struggled with the tendency to withdraw and did her best to look like nothing was happening. You might perceive this as dishonest, and it indeed is kind of dishonest (I hope I wouldn't act so stupid anymore), but it isn't done with bad intention; it's mostly just a desperate effort to avoid conflict, which is very draining and uncomfortable for Fi-doms, and they often kind of assume it is that way with everyone.

    So, my interpretation of your friend's behavior might go something like this: you wrote her you'd come, but she really didn't expect you (because if she's anything like my ISFP sister, she doesn't really have a strong notion of future commitment and she might have just forgotten about it), and when she saw you she was trying her best to sound really happy. It's possible she really was happy to see you (although you were a commitment she didn't expect => pressure), and if you suppressed your feelings and tried to look as if it didn't matter, everything still could be somewhat ok. However, you let her know you were very disappointed, which put even more pressure on her. It wasn't very nice of her that she didn't show up before the concert, but if she's anything like my sis, she might just be evasive as hell. (I know that with my sis and another ISFP friend of mine this is really nothing personal. It's just a quirk.) When she saw you later she was very nice to you again (so that you reacted nice as well, I suppose), but when you again openly displayed negative emotions towards her, she withdrew completely. She probably failed to put up with so much emotional pressure anymore and chose the easiest (even though probably the least mature) way how to get out of it: ignorance. However, it's very likely that she didn't really ignore you; I suppose she felt pretty ashamed to treat you like this and her self-conscience wasn't clear about it at all, but at the moment she was too overwhelmed to do anything else. I'm afraid that no one likes to be friends with people who constantly make them feel bad.

    Maybe I'm reading too much into this and your friend's character really is flawed. But I think it's important to realize that when you take up a righteous attitude towards someone, it's very useful to imagine what possibly made them act the way they did and try to understand, because you almost always find out that in complicated interpersonal situations there are two people to blame and the one you feel so bitter towards has probably also a good many things to forgive you. Of course that selfishness and pride are bad things, but before we start accusing others of such "sins" we should look deep inside our hearts and ask ourselves if we haven't commited them as well. The moment we find out we're just as flawed as everyone else it becomes a lot easier to forgive.
    I can't believe you're serious.

  8. #38
    Aspiring Troens Ridder KLessard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Space_Oddity View Post
    KLessard,

    obviously I would need a much broader context of your friendship with this girl AND her perspective to judge this situation more objectively, but if you don't mind I'd try to offer another point of view (which might of course have nothing to do with reality, but that's always the risk on forums). I'll venture so far as to assume your friend is a Fi-dom, as your situation feels slightly familiar to me.

    I understand why you felt hurt by your friend's behavior and you were certainly entitled to it - she acted impolite, evasive and definitely a little stupid. However, if this girl has been your friend, maybe you should try to understand WHY she behaved the way she did, and not just judge her right away for being unforgiveably "flawed". I know I have behaved in a little similar way in one of my friendships with an INFJ before, and I'm far from being proud of it because it was pretty childish and inconsiderate of me back then; nevertheless, I definitely behaved like that for a reason, and the reason lied directly in my friendship with the INFJ. Also, I have an ISFP sister and I can imagine she could behave similarly and what could be her possible reasons.

    First of all, ask yourself how had your friendship with this girl been going before you wrote her you'd come. Had she acted evasive (or another kind of "flawed") before, or did this come completely out of the blue? If she had, how did you deal with it? Did you confront her and upbraid her for behavior? Did you directly make her know you were hurt and disappointed by it? Did you make her feel she was judged?

    If you did some of these things, it's pretty likely she had already been feeling very pressured by you by the time this incident happened. And as far as I can tell, being emotionally pressured is probably the last thing in the world Fi-doms would like or tolerate. Fi-doms go by the rule "don't do anything to others you wouldn't like them to do to you", and making anyone feel bad by directly emotionally pressuring them is definitely a very undesirable thing they neither do nor tolerate. They also don't typically judge people and rather try to take them just as they are, and consequently they don't like being judged as well. Perhaps for you, it's natural to show your feelings - the positive ones as well and the negative ones, and you expect others to respect them. But for Fi-doms, it's just as natural to keep their feelings hidden - especially the negative ones. It's possible your friend felt pressured and overwhelmed by negative feelings you possibly expressed towards her and she also felt you didn't have any right to judge her, and her reaction was a withdrawl.

    (Bearing in mind I might be completely and utterly off in this analysis altogether ), this might not sound logical to you as until this incident she still acted friendly towards you. However, the withdrawal might have been very gradual, and because your friend certainly liked you a lot and formed a strong bond with you over the time of your friendship, she struggled with the tendency to withdraw and did her best to look like nothing was happening. You might perceive this as dishonest, and it indeed is kind of dishonest (I hope I wouldn't act so stupid anymore), but it isn't done with bad intention; it's mostly just a desperate effort to avoid conflict, which is very draining and uncomfortable for Fi-doms, and they often kind of assume it is that way with everyone.

    So, my interpretation of your friend's behavior might go something like this: you wrote her you'd come, but she really didn't expect you (because if she's anything like my ISFP sister, she doesn't really have a strong notion of future commitment and she might have just forgotten about it), and when she saw you she was trying her best to sound really happy. It's possible she really was happy to see you (although you were a commitment she didn't expect => pressure), and if you suppressed your feelings and tried to look as if it didn't matter, everything still could be somewhat ok. However, you let her know you were very disappointed, which put even more pressure on her. It wasn't very nice of her that she didn't show up before the concert, but if she's anything like my sis, she might just be evasive as hell. (I know that with my sis and another ISFP friend of mine this is really nothing personal. It's just a quirk.) When she saw you later she was very nice to you again (so that you reacted nice as well, I suppose), but when you again openly displayed negative emotions towards her, she withdrew completely. She probably failed to put up with so much emotional pressure anymore and chose the easiest (even though probably the least mature) way how to get out of it: ignorance. However, it's very likely that she didn't really ignore you; I suppose she felt pretty ashamed to treat you like this and her self-conscience wasn't clear about it at all, but at the moment she was too overwhelmed to do anything else. I'm afraid that no one likes to be friends with people who constantly make them feel bad.

    Maybe I'm reading too much into this and your friend's character really is flawed. But I think it's important to realize that when you take up a righteous attitude towards someone, it's very useful to imagine what possibly made them act the way they did and try to understand, because you almost always find out that in complicated interpersonal situations there are two people to blame and the one you feel so bitter towards has probably also a good many things to forgive you. Of course that selfishness and pride are bad things, but before we start accusing others of such "sins" we should look deep inside our hearts and ask ourselves if we haven't commited them as well. The moment we find out we're just as flawed as everyone else it becomes a lot easier to forgive.
    I have no problem believing I am a sinner, and talking about sin was just a general belief for me, I wasn't thinking of this girl in particular. I'm the first to feel guilty and hate myself when things go bad. I have also examined myself very intensely about this whole thing. I wrote to her after the incident to apologize about my frankness and kindly explain how I felt, and she didn't care to answer me.

    This girl is not a close friend of mine. She is an acquaintance, and we just got back in touch after many years because of the portrait I painted of her. I didn't judge her openly about the incident (even if I couldn't help feeling angry inside about what happened) but been very patient with her, and I don't remember saying here that she was "flawed" or anything (also, she is not the same friend mentioned in the first post). This girl has a tendency not to keep her word, and did it more than once. I dared to confront her once, many years ago because my heart was broken over something deeply meaningful to me and I waited two years to speak out about it. I did it very gently too (I actually asked her if I had hurt her in some way and if that was the reason she didn't keep her word; I expressed my own feelings of sadness and disappointment, and she wrote back that I hadn't hurt her in any way, and she couldn't see how I could have). I respect this person so much, I can never be very rough or judgmental about what I say to her because I don't want to ruin the connection. I always weigh my words carefully before I speak to her. But my trust and respect are dwindling away at the present. She is an ISFP with ISFJ values, it's very strange. You certainly read my story through your own life's glasses, because nothing you described there happened (the pressure and all); we don't know each other well enough so it could have happened. Unless she reads my silence as judgment, because this is what happens when she hurts me. I just clam up and keep quiet, because I would cry or something.

  9. #39
    Senior Member scortia's Avatar
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    I can totally relate. Honestly my ability to forgive is purely based on the sincerity of the other party's apology. In the few altercations I've experienced (all of them I confronted because the other person was a user and/or lied for self-centered reasons) I have yet to get an apology. And in those few cases, that's what ate me up for months after we stopped talking. The lack of growth and change needed for proper closure. That all this anger happened for naught.

    My position has always been that it's silly to forgive a person who doesn't believe they need to be forgiven for anything. I have a few situations, like with my father after my folks got divorced, where my pity overrides my rage over that person not taking responsibility. I guess in the end the NF compassion can override everything.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Antisocial one View Post
    Well, recovering from a relationship with a typical ENTP certainly takes time. So people should not be too hard on INFJs because of this trait.
    It is interesting that some people consider this post worthy of "reping".


    Yes, this a sarcasam but with few grains of honest opinion.

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