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  1. #21
    Aspiring Troens Ridder KLessard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wyst View Post
    I've been in a similar situation with an ENTP friend of mine for a while. He's got 100% P (NO J at all). He constistently shows up late, sleeps through things he should be at, doesn't follow through with things he says he's going to do and... has 100 million friends he still manages to hang out with.

    Earlier last week he called me and needed to talk. Even after a long day at work, things scheduled after work, and being close to when I'm usually winding down for the night, I go out to meet him. I listen to him talk for an hour, then his phone rings and he talks on the phone for 10 minutes while I just sit there.

    He's moving to a new place. He wanted boxes and I knew there were some at work that I could give him. I drove BACK to work at 8:30 last night to get them and said I'd meet him at my place. When he gets there, we load the boxes into his car.. I really wanted to talk about some stuff that had me down and mentioned how it was getting cold. He said he couldn't stay because he was supposed to go watch Lost with a bunch of friends..

    "Thanks for not being there for me when I've been there for you, patiently waiting for you to show up, waiting for you to get off the phone call you answered when I came out to listen to YOU talk to ME." That's what I wanted to say.

    I'm still a little irked at him. I honestly think it doesn't even cross his mind that all this stuff bothers me. I think that, like your friend did, he probably will move on VERY easily - he has a ton of friends he could hang out with any night of the week. I have very few. So do I want to distance myself from him? Sometimes. He hangs out with several groups of people, mine included. So to distance myself from him would actually be bad for me because I'd have to leave my group behind to do this. Not an option.

    Perhaps the people we INFJs let into our lives, when they hurt us, it wounds us so deeply that we fear being 'betrayed' like that again. I think the difficulty in forgiving could be indicative of how much damage was done or how close to home the damage was.

    Yes, Yes, yes. I've got to learn the P way better. Something similar's happened to me with an ISFP lately, and I totally feel like she was avoiding me. I had come all the way from Montreal to Halifax to meet her, and mentioned my visit in a letter sent a month and a half before. She gave me a big hug and sounded happy to see me, but said she didn't know I was coming and was busy that week-end (she had a good reason, she was helping an old aunt with her shopping because she had no car). I was awful disappointed but we still planned to meet at the pub where she was playing (fiddle) before the concert so I could take some pictures of her for my artwork (she's served me as model for portraits) and talk a bit. She didn't show up. When she finally arrived for the music, she saw me sitting there and came up to me with a huge smile: "Hey! Did you have a nice day?" !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Didn't even seem to care or remember about our meeting. I shook my head sadly, but frankly. She saw my face and lost her smile. "I'll come talk to you at the break," she said. I am waiting until the break. She puts her fiddle down and goes to sit with some friends and acquaintances right away. She never came to see me. I was crushed.
    Last edited by KLessard; 02-15-2010 at 03:34 PM.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wyst View Post
    He's got 100% P (NO J at all). He constistently shows up late...
    Quote Originally Posted by KLessard View Post
    Yes, Yes, yes. I've got to learn the P way better.
    I completely understand the context in which your posts were made, and I'm very sorry if this seems like I'm nitpicking about something that's beside the point, but I feel that I really must clarify this. Please don't take this the wrong way.

    What you and Wyst decribed has little to with whether someone is a P or a J.

    Jung originally only described INF, IST, ENT etc. The P/J axis was added by Myers-Briggs as a way to show how someone preferred to interact with the outside world.

    So a J person uses the F/T axis to interact with the outside world. (In the case of INFJ's that would be Fe)

    A P uses the S/N axis to interact with the outside world. (In the case of an ESTP that would be Se)


    The P/J axis is therefore something that should be determined based on how the person takes in information from the outside world, and how they choose to relate to other things in the outside world.

    Things like whether someone is a stickler for rules, or keeps appointments, or neatness etc. isn't really what it's about. Although, for some reason many MBTI tests try to test for P or J explicitly by asking direct questions about order/chaos etc., it really should be tested in a more indirect way than that.

    That said, could a P appear more indecisive than a J? Yes. For example, if a P takes in information via intuition (S/N axis), he will take in many things holistically, and therefore see them at once from a wide variety of perspectives. After he takes in all this information, then he has to sit down and process through it. Since he was lead by his intuition to immediately see more possibilities, more time is taken to process through and filter down all that information.

    A J might take that same information in via thinking (F/T axis). That information is filtered and processed immediately, instead of holistically like in the case of intuition. It is therefore much faster for the J to arrive at a conclusion on the issue because it has already been filtered down and processed by the thinking function at the moment he was taking it in. Unlike the P, he doesn't have to go back and filter it, so the J comes to decisions faster and appears more decisive.

    -o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-

    Since I divulged all of that, I feel I need to say something more immediately applicable to the topic: Being a P is NO EXCUSE for your friends being flaky, or for them being completely tone deaf to how another person might interpret their actions. That is NOT what P/J measures.

    I once had an experience where I sat down at a table with some people, and they were so busy talking amongst themselves that I might as well have been an old food stain on the table. And I was specifically invited to sit down with those people. They were just too busy enjoying their experience with familiar faces (I was the new guy in the mix), and therefore they paid little attention to how the experience would have been for me. This is what I call being "tone deaf" to another person, and I would make no excuses for those people. If I was among a group where the people were more aware and empathic, it would have been a much better experience for me. So, the point is, don't make excuses for "Tone deaf" friends, and certainly don't attribute it to their P'ness.



    I also think it would help if you stop looking at the situations only in MBTI terms and think of the human condition in general. Stop saying things like "We INFJ's are this way..." because a lot of what was mentioned above could apply equally as well to other types. I say this because it's so easy to fall into a trap where we are unwilling to accommodate if we can easily resort to the "that's just the way I am" argument.
    The purple sun won't heal my purple bruises :ouch:

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackCat View Post
    It's because they lead with Fi in socionics.
    I'm not sure I'm following you here.

    I have Fi and I am capable of profound understanding that people are neither "good" nor "bad" and that a person's behavior is not who they are. I'm not a particularly idealistic NF in the sense that I accept that what I'll call "human nature" is inherently flawed and survival-based. In many situations it's actually difficult for me to say who is "wrong" or "right" because so many complex factors are involved in personality development, circumstance, lack of communication, differing cultural values, possible physiological causes, etc.

    I'm not INFJ, but I think it's healthy to walk away from someone who continually hurts you over and over in the same manner over a period of time and refuses to change their behavior towards or get help if the situation is particularly dire. That's not unforgiveness, per se, that's protecting yourself.

  4. #24
    Senior Member sketchymcsketcherson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KLessard View Post
    Yes, Yes, yes. I've got to learn the P way better. Something similar's happened to me with an ISFX lately, and I totally feel like she was avoiding me. I had come all the way from Montreal to Halifax to meet her, and mentioned my visit in a letter sent a month and a half before. She gave me a big hug and sounded happy to see me, but said she didn't know I was coming and was busy that week-end (she had a good reason, she was helping an old aunt with her shopping because she had no car). I was awful disappointed but we still planned to meet at the pub where she was playing (fiddle) before the concert so I could take some pictures of her for my artwork (she's served me as model for portraits) and talk a bit. She didn't show up. When she finally arrived for the music, she saw me sitting there and came up to me with a huge smile: "Hey! Did you have a nice day?" !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Didn't even seem to care or remember about our meeting. I said "No" quite frankly. She saw my face and lost her smile. "I'll come talk to you at the break," she said. I am waiting until the break. She puts her fiddle down and goes to sit with some friends and acquaintances right away. She never came to see me. I was crushed.


    Honestly, if something like that happened to me, I would be crushed as well.

    It's not just that you drove all that way to see her, only to get ditched. It's that she saw your frown, and heard you say you were not happy, then specifically promised to come talk to you later on -- the promise which she broke.

    I think this goes beyond the scope of P vs. J and more into the realm of "I'm such a careless extrovert that I immediately shirk all social responsibility to my true friend so that I can go hang out with the nearest group that will hang out with me."

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    I'm not sure I'm following you here.

    I have Fi
    ...
    I'm not INFJ
    I'm just going to do the whole "quote another website" thing because it's easy to do.

    Fi as dominant in Socionics is:

    The individual sees reality primarity through static personal ethics and stable interpersonal bonds between individuals, including himself, where the status of such interpersonal bonds is determined by his personal ethics. The individual is very confident in evaluating the ethical or moral qualities, and their consistency, of other people. This makes the individual seem "judgemental" or "self-righteous" to people less so inclined. If he has difficulty in deciding the status of a personal relationship, he will take action to try to reach a conclusion but if that continues to elude him, he will regard the relationship as not worth it. His own sense of constancy in personal ethics and in his relationships with others is a very strong factor in his sense of self-worth.
    Basically, the position of a function in Socionics has a very drastic effect on how the function plays out, so the fact that you and the INFj both use Fi doesn't hint at complete commonality in how Fi manifests itself in the two of you.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by greed View Post
    I'm just going to do the whole "quote another website" thing because it's easy to do.

    Fi as dominant in Socionics is:



    Basically, the position of a function in Socionics has a very drastic effect on how the function plays out, so the fact that you and the INFj both use Fi doesn't hint at complete commonality in how Fi manifests itself in the two of you.
    I'm an ENFp in socionics.

  7. #27
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    I'm lazy and haven't read the whole thread, but I'll shoot my mouth off anyway.

    I find, when someone does something that blindsides me, I have to basically rewrite everything. It's like everything I thought I knew is now suspect and must be reevaluated. Sometimes after this process, I determine that the previous perceived reality of the person in question was just wrong. Either that or they changed without my noticing. When that happens, sometimes my new reality does not include them. I don't want them to be a part of my life anymore.

    Other times, I still do care about them, and don't want to write them out of my life, but I do need to keep my guard up. I'm really, really horrible at that. When I'm interacting with someone, I tend to just focus on that interaction and it's almost impossible to keep any kind of filter up or think about the fact that I could be opening myself up to be harmed. I'm pretty much all or nothing like that. When I get burned a couple of times in that situation, I will begin to act pretty flaky and distance myself.

    Forgiveness is just a weird concept for me to get my head around for reasons I saw mentioned earlier in the thread. I believe that our actions are an outgrowth of who and what we are, so when someone does something hurtful, that hurtful thing must be a part of their insides somehow. I can forgive the action a lot of times, but the action still changes the way I see reality and what I might anticipate for the future.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  8. #28
    Aspiring Troens Ridder KLessard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sketchymcsketcherson View Post


    Honestly, if something like that happened to me, I would be crushed as well.

    It's not just that you drove all that way to see her, only to get ditched. It's that she saw your frown, and heard you say you were not happy, then specifically promised to come talk to you later on -- the promise which she broke.

    I think this goes beyond the scope of P vs. J and more into the realm of "I'm such a careless extrovert that I immediately shirk all social responsibility to my true friend so that I can go hang out with the nearest group that will hang out with me."

    Thank you for your compassion. I'm glad to hear it's ok to feel hurt. Some people in the SJ forum said to me "You must be mega sensitive" about this. She's introverted, though. I'm having a very hard time understanding her. She's done this to me in other ways in the past, too.

  9. #29
    Junior Member rogue1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KLessard View Post
    I have previously read posts where non-INFJs asked if INFJs could ever forgive, why they would keep score of bad things people had done to them, etc.

    I have found an answer for myself (because I am struggling with this), and perhaps other INFJs will relate.

    INFJs are all about Being.
    If someone hurts me in a way that really offends my idealistic principles, I am very vexed to discover how that person really IS. It is difficult for me to make a distinction between a bad thing someone DID and what the person IS like. I feel that this wrong doing shows the offender's real nature, and I don't want to be around a liar, around a superficial friend, around a prideful person, etc. (Very type One, I know).
    The people who offend me in this way and make me feel like giving the doorslam are usually those I respect the most and saw as role models. Now, I don't want to have a liar, vain, prideful, etc. role model, do I?

    I go from ridiculously admirative to almost hateful. It's all about disappointment.

    I am learning to embrace people as they are and accepting the fact that no human being is perfect. I am learning to separate actions from being. Although it is a greater challenge when hurtful actions are repeated and appear as a constant.

    For example, one of my childhood best friends was a SFP. Another friend is ISFJ (she was closer to this SFP than me). We both grew really tired of having this friend letting us down, being ungrateful, not showing up when she said she would, using us, etc. We both ended up taking a distance and we barely ever see this girl now. We also feel like she's moved on on us (she moves on people easily). So. What is forgiveness here? This is a mystery to me, because it seems obvious that I cannot embrace this friend's nature. I don't agree with it. I seem to see forgiveness as total love and reconciliation taking place. I guess forgiveness sometimes means peace of mind and no bitterness, but a possible distant relationship.
    Well, in my book, distant relationship=conflict.

    Any tips? Any thoughts?
    It was very difficult for me to make the distinction...especially with someone I want to follow, love, or care about. As I began to mature I better understood that sometimes good people make some bad choices. Looking in the mirror taught me the most about forgiveness.
    Repeated hurtful actions...can be forgiven, but it creates lots of distance. If I have an overall distrust of someone the relationship will not last. I would give them enough distance that they would never know I was gone. Forgiven, Yes. They dont have to be perfect, No....but I dont want to be around you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sky is BLUE! View Post
    For me, forgiving isn't even the issue, people are just people, warts and all. It's the trouble with FORGETTING that starts the distancing. It is about disappointment that breaks something in the friendship that seemingly can't be fixed no matter how much you try.
    Very well put.
    For me it is the disappointment that breaks something in me, and the relationship "seemingly" cannot be fixed...sigh...no matter how hard me/they try.


    Quote Originally Posted by Lexicon View Post
    Well put.

    I don't tend to doorslam people, or keep a tally of hurts. That seems pointless to me. If there's an ongoing problem, I do my best to address it. If a mutual understanding cannot be reached, I don't necessarily hold it against them, but I do stop putting forth the effort, and I do walk away. It's not as black-and-white as, you're a good person, or a bad person, etc. I care about people, and I can't help but to do so, and when they've wronged me, I still care, but if the damage is irreparable, then I distance myself. If the person actually puts forth the effort to work on their problems, and approaches me later on, of course I'd like to resolve it further. The friendship may or not be the same as it was, depending on how well said issue was resolved. But if they try, I'm there.
    I don't keep a tally of hurts, because I always get hurt. ...but easy to forgive.
    Finding that mutual understanding is the most difficult for me, because I want "the rules of engagement" to be clear. I don't hold it against someone either, but I do stop putting forth any effort and walk away. Having the same kind of relationship, most likely, will never happen...maybe if the lines are very clear. I just don't want to waste my life living under that kind of stressful hurt.

  10. #30
    Shaman BlackCat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by greed View Post
    I'm just going to do the whole "quote another website" thing because it's easy to do.

    Fi as dominant in Socionics is:



    Basically, the position of a function in Socionics has a very drastic effect on how the function plays out, so the fact that you and the INFj both use Fi doesn't hint at complete commonality in how Fi manifests itself in the two of you.
    Thank you greed...
    () 9w8-3w4-7w6 tritype.

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