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  1. #11
    Sniffles
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sky is BLUE! View Post
    For me, forgiving isn't even the issue, people are just people, warts and all. It's the trouble with forgetting that starts the distancing. It is about disappointment that breaks something in the friendship that seemingly can't be fixed no matter how much you try.
    I notice this too.

  2. #12
    Temporal Mechanic. Lexicon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sky is BLUE! View Post
    For me, forgiving isn't even the issue, people are just people, warts and all. It's the trouble with forgetting that starts the distancing. It is about disappointment that breaks something in the friendship that seemingly can't be fixed no matter how much you try.

    Well put.

    I don't tend to doorslam people, or keep a tally of hurts. That seems pointless to me. If there's an ongoing problem, I do my best to address it. If a mutual understanding cannot be reached, I don't necessarily hold it against them, but I do stop putting forth the effort, and I do walk away. It's not as black-and-white as, you're a good person, or a bad person, etc. I care about people, and I can't help but to do so, and when they've wronged me, I still care, but if the damage is irreparable, then I distance myself. If the person actually puts forth the effort to work on their problems, and approaches me later on, of course I'd like to resolve it further. The friendship may or not be the same as it was, depending on how well said issue was resolved. But if they try, I'm there.
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  3. #13
    a scream in a vortex nanook's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackCat View Post
    It's because they lead with Fi in socionics.
    what tycho and lemonade said sounds Fi to me.
    what klessard said sounds Ni to me

    not sure what this "forgetting theory" is about, that is mentioned i most of the other posts, sounds individual, probably depends on what experiences you think of. might be better to exclude relationships from this brainstorming, that involve a lot of trust or even intimacy, to find a pattern that is related to typology. no one forgets anything that has touched his heart .. or his conscious or unconscious Fi. and not being touched on the unconscious Fi spot by close relationships isn't normal or healthy for Ni types or anyone

  4. #14
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KLessard View Post
    I have previously read posts where non-INFJs asked if INFJs could ever forgive, why they would keep score of bad things people had done to them, etc.

    I have found an answer for myself (because I am struggling with this), and perhaps other INFJs will relate.

    INFJs are all about Being.
    If someone hurts me in a way that really offends my idealistic principles, I am very vexed to discover how that person really IS. It is difficult for me to make a distinction between a bad thing someone DID and what the person IS like. I feel that this wrong doing shows the offender's real nature, and I don't want to be around a liar, around a superficial friend, around a prideful person, etc. (Very type One, I know).
    The people who offend me in this way and make me feel like giving the doorslam are usually those I respect the most and saw as role models. Now, I don't want to have a liar, vain, prideful, etc. role model, do I?

    I go from ridiculously admirative to almost hateful. It's all about disappointment.


    I am learning to embrace people as they are and accepting the fact that no human being is perfect. I am learning to separate actions from being. Although it is a greater challenge when hurtful actions are repeated and appear as a constant.
    I think this is where the key lies. The ability to understand that people are only living in their own story. They are not necessarily trying to hurt you, or be less than ideal, they are just living out the path their lives have taken. Keep people and their actions separate from yourself and it makes living among people more bearable, and less angstful.

    I personally don't buy into the religious throwback teaching that people are inherently flawed/sinners. I view people as perfect in their own ways, with their own idiosyncracies, which I may or may not like. It's not the people I dislike, it might just be the way they choose to lie that I dislike. Or the easy way out they prefer to take, when I hold integrity dear. So for me, it comes down to becoming fatigued with not being able to meet somewhere close to the middle, for both of our needs. If I end up feeling like they are not an asset to my life, I will want to move away from them in order to free up my energy for someone or something that will prove more advantageous because I have only a certain amount of energy to give to objects outside myself and my Ni demands that be as pristine as possible so that I may grow. And that, I believe IS inherently INFJ. Other types might be more likely to come and go, or see benefit in relating with all objects or people they come into contact with.

    For example, one of my childhood best friends was a SFP. Another friend is ISFJ (she was closer to this SFP than me). We both grew really tired of having this friend letting us down, being ungrateful, not showing up when she said she would, using us, etc. We both ended up taking a distance and we barely ever see this girl now. We also feel like she's moved on on us (she moves on people easily). So. What is forgiveness here? This is a mystery to me, because it seems obvious that I cannot embrace this friend's nature. I don't agree with it. I seem to see forgiveness as total love and reconciliation taking place. I guess forgiveness sometimes means peace of mind and no bitterness, but a possible distant relationship.
    Well, in my book, distant relationship=conflict.

    Any tips? Any thoughts?
    True forgiveness perhaps takes longer in us because we masturbate our minds endlessly over what ifs and other scenarios we could have taken. Forgiveness can only happen once the grief process is gone through in its entirety, and grief process it probably will be if the friend was a longstanding and intimate one; and for an infj, that grief process might take years. Don't give up on it. People are our love but also our weakness. The more experience you get with people, the more you will understand where your own boundaries will need to be.

    I don't do distant real life relationships well, and I'm okay with that. I don't like to talk on the phone. You're here with me or we're off doing our own things, and that's just how I am. I make no apologies about this, nor should anyone else.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lexicon View Post
    Well put.

    I don't tend to doorslam people, or keep a tally of hurts. That seems pointless to me. If there's an ongoing problem, I do my best to address it. If a mutual understanding cannot be reached, I don't necessarily hold it against them, but I do stop putting forth the effort, and I do walk away. It's not as black-and-white as, you're a good person, or a bad person, etc. I care about people, and I can't help but to do so, and when they've wronged me, I still care, but if the damage is irreparable, then I distance myself. If the person actually puts forth the effort to work on their problems, and approaches me later on, of course I'd like to resolve it further. The friendship may or not be the same as it was, depending on how well said issue was resolved. But if they try, I'm there.
    This is me as well.
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  5. #15
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lexicon View Post
    Well put.

    I don't tend to doorslam people, or keep a tally of hurts. That seems pointless to me. If there's an ongoing problem, I do my best to address it. If a mutual understanding cannot be reached, I don't necessarily hold it against them, but I do stop putting forth the effort, and I do walk away. It's not as black-and-white as, you're a good person, or a bad person, etc. I care about people, and I can't help but to do so, and when they've wronged me, I still care, but if the damage is irreparable, then I distance myself. If the person actually puts forth the effort to work on their problems, and approaches me later on, of course I'd like to resolve it further. The friendship may or not be the same as it was, depending on how well said issue was resolved. But if they try, I'm there.
    Pretty much!

    Quote Originally Posted by aphrodite-gone-awry View Post
    So for me, it comes down to becoming fatigued with not being able to meet somewhere close to the middle, for both of our needs. If I end up feeling like they are not an asset to my life, I will want to move away from them in order to free up my energy for someone or something that will prove more advantageous because I have only a certain amount of energy to give to objects outside myself and my Ni demands that be as pristine as possible so that I may grow. And that, I believe IS inherently INFJ. Other types might be more likely to come and go, or see benefit in relating with all objects or people they come into contact with.
    Yes, this also seems to be a theme in my life. I'm *all about* balanced relationships - a healthy give and take by both parties, both giving and both also benefiting and getting things out of the relationship. If it's ever off-balance, or I'm giving way more than the other person seems to want to give or has time to give, then I might question the nature of the relationship and whether or not I want to focus my energies deeply anymore. Or, sometimes I sense the other person is giving more than I am, and that's also a sign to me that perhaps the relationship *as a whole* isn't great, because I'm not able to give what the other person needs/deserves.
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  6. #16
    Symbolic Herald Vasilisa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lexicon View Post
    I care about people, and I can't help but to do so, and when they've wronged me, I still care, but if the damage is irreparable, then I distance myself. If the person actually puts forth the effort to work on their problems, and approaches me later on, of course I'd like to resolve it further. The friendship may or not be the same as it was, depending on how well said issue was resolved. But if they try, I'm there.
    Quote Originally Posted by aphrodite-gone-awry View Post
    So for me, it comes down to becoming fatigued with not being able to meet somewhere close to the middle, for both of our needs. If I end up feeling like they are not an asset to my life, I will want to move away from them in order to free up my energy for someone or something that will prove more advantageous because I have only a certain amount of energy to give to objects outside myself and my Ni demands that be as pristine as possible so that I may grow. And that, I believe IS inherently INFJ.
    I have these same feelings. Its like I get to point where I say "show me how much you want to put into this". I usually think it is pretty obvious, but I suppose I need to work at expressing it verbally to those who might not understand.
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  7. #17
    Queen hunter Virtual ghost's Avatar
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    Well, recovering from a relationship with a typical ENTP certainly takes time. So people should not be too hard on INFJs because of this trait.

  8. #18
    lurking.... Wyst's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KLessard View Post
    For example, one of my childhood best friends was a SFP. Another friend is ISFJ (she was closer to this SFP than me). We both grew really tired of having this friend letting us down, being ungrateful, not showing up when she said she would, using us, etc. We both ended up taking a distance and we barely ever see this girl now. We also feel like she's moved on on us (she moves on people easily). So. What is forgiveness here? This is a mystery to me, because it seems obvious that I cannot embrace this friend's nature. I don't agree with it. I seem to see forgiveness as total love and reconciliation taking place. I guess forgiveness sometimes means peace of mind and no bitterness, but a possible distant relationship.
    Well, in my book, distant relationship=conflict.

    Any tips? Any thoughts?
    I've been in a similar situation with an ENTP friend of mine for a while. He's got 100% P (NO J at all). He constistently shows up late, sleeps through things he should be at, doesn't follow through with things he says he's going to do and... has 100 million friends he still manages to hang out with.

    Earlier last week he called me and needed to talk. Even after a long day at work, things scheduled after work, and being close to when I'm usually winding down for the night, I go out to meet him. I listen to him talk for an hour, then his phone rings and he talks on the phone for 10 minutes while I just sit there.

    He's moving to a new place. He wanted boxes and I knew there were some at work that I could give him. I drove BACK to work at 8:30 last night to get them and said I'd meet him at my place. When he gets there, we load the boxes into his car.. I really wanted to talk about some stuff that had me down and mentioned how it was getting cold. He said he couldn't stay because he was supposed to go watch Lost with a bunch of friends..

    "Thanks for not being there for me when I've been there for you, patiently waiting for you to show up, waiting for you to get off the phone call you answered when I came out to listen to YOU talk to ME." That's what I wanted to say.

    I'm still a little irked at him. I honestly think it doesn't even cross his mind that all this stuff bothers me. I think that, like your friend did, he probably will move on VERY easily - he has a ton of friends he could hang out with any night of the week. I have very few. So do I want to distance myself from him? Sometimes. He hangs out with several groups of people, mine included. So to distance myself from him would actually be bad for me because I'd have to leave my group behind to do this. Not an option.

    Perhaps the people we INFJs let into our lives, when they hurt us, it wounds us so deeply that we fear being 'betrayed' like that again. I think the difficulty in forgiving could be indicative of how much damage was done or how close to home the damage was.

  9. #19
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    We can be really hard to read so people don't always know how distressed we are, especially more demonstrative types. Not had the best of luck fixing this.
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  10. #20
    Aspiring Troens Ridder KLessard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lexicon View Post
    Well put.

    I don't tend to doorslam people, or keep a tally of hurts. That seems pointless to me. If there's an ongoing problem, I do my best to address it. If a mutual understanding cannot be reached, I don't necessarily hold it against them, but I do stop putting forth the effort, and I do walk away. It's not as black-and-white as, you're a good person, or a bad person, etc. I care about people, and I can't help but to do so, and when they've wronged me, I still care, but if the damage is irreparable, then I distance myself. If the person actually puts forth the effort to work on their problems, and approaches me later on, of course I'd like to resolve it further. The friendship may or not be the same as it was, depending on how well said issue was resolved. But if they try, I'm there.
    I guess this is also what really happens to me. I'm always ready to reconcile and do what I can about it. Only when the other person isn't making an effort do I feel helpless and bitter. It's probably not about forgiveness but distance or indifference.

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