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  1. #21
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    Okay, since we're using horses as analogies - how about seeing the word control = tame?

    Not to break the horse (force = control), but, to tame (=control) it to want to do what you would like it to do.

    At the end, the only way control would not be an applicable term is if in your analogy you let the wild horse be, no interference at all, letting it run free, but, once you intervene (aiming for mastery)...you've asserting some form of "control" [beyond dressing up the word].
    Nope
    You ask the horse for its cooperation. Its good will to trust you that you will not force it to do anything it doesn't want to. To trust that you as the herd leader know what you're doing. And that trust can be revoked at any given time. That's not control. That's cooperation. It's the difference between advising and ordering about. To think you have control would be a big mistake as it would imply the horse will *always* follow your lead no matter how stupid an order you give it.
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  2. #22
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    Nope
    You ask the horse for its cooperation. Its good will to trust you that you will not force it to do anything it doesn't want to. To trust that you as the herd leader know what you're doing. And that trust can be revoked at any given time. That's not control. That's cooperation. It's the difference between advising and ordering about. To think you have control would be a big mistake as it would imply the horse will *always* follow your lead no matter how stupid an order you give it.
    That makes sense if you see control as a domination over another, versus an ability to direct (as you call, "lead") another.

    Both definitions are relevant to the word "control" as per the dictionary, btw.

    You started off with a wild horse. You're asking (not ordering) it to do something, if it cooperates (i.e., does the act you asked) - the horse is no longer completely wild (your mastery has tamed it, even if for that moment). Wild horses are not subjected to any form of guidance, manipulation, direction, chanelling, direct human influence....it's a free agent.

    As soon as your world collides with it, and you're asking it to be directed in a certain way......and you're successful, you've achieved some level of control over it. This doesn't assume that it's a forever thing. It assumes that your intervention held (even if for that brief moment).

    But, if the connotation of the word control is irksome to you guys, sure, we'll disassociate from it. Ti asks that you precisely define certain terms, so, Fi should have the right to emotionally define certain terms too.

  3. #23
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    It's actually, at least to me, an incredibly difference.

    I remember growing up and being told to man up and have discipline and stuff. And everytime someone made me do something or even I myself told myself to do something, I'd rebell against it. But give me a chance to understand the need for that behavior, and have me agree with it, and i'll do it out of my free will without any delays. I actually got myself stuck in a rebellion loop for years with deadlines, schoolwork, responsibilities (coz I do have a sense of responsibility), where nothing gets done that way because I'm forcing myself instead of just understanding the need. Again, I dunno if this is true for other NFPs, but it is an immense difference for me, between control and cooperation. To me, control has the meaning of the other party no longer having a say in it..a clear hierarchy with no debate. Cooperation means you're equals and working together towards a common goal. Anycase, I'll stop derailing
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  4. #24
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    It's actually, at least to me, an incredibly difference.

    I remember growing up and being told to man up and have discipline and stuff. And everytime someone made me do something or even I myself told myself to do something, I'd rebell against it. But give me a chance to understand the need for that behavior, and have me agree with it, and i'll do it out of my free will without any delays. I actually got myself stuck in a rebellion loop for years with deadlines, schoolwork, responsibilities (coz I do have a sense of responsibility), where nothing gets done that way because I'm forcing myself instead of just understanding the need. Again, I dunno if this is true for other NFPs, but it is an immense difference for me, between control and cooperation. To me, control has the meaning of the other party no longer having a say in it..a clear hierarchy with no debate. Cooperation means you're equals and working together towards a common goal. Anycase, I'll stop derailing
    Okay, last response to you on this topic, as I don't wanna derail either.

    I should clarify that I agree with you, there is a difference between control and cooperation. I just don't see it relevant if the "horse" is from within (analogy to Fi).

    It seems like a disassociative personality disorder then.

    I think cooperation is only relevant if something is external to myself (a work I have to do, a person tells me to do x, the examples you pointed out).....and in that, to keep my selfhood, autonomy, intact (my self-identity), I'm with you, as another ENP, in wanting cooperation over control. And, rebelling when I don't get that.

    However, if it's from within myself, say, Fi, the overarching person in all this is still "me", I trump all the parts of me, as the whole. "Me, the whole, is greater than the sum of my parts." Thus, it is about this comprehensive me (the overall me) gaining "control" over a part of me. In this, I guess, I'm confused as to how cooperation really is relevant, unless different parts of me are completely segmented and unrelated (i.e., its own free agent) from the overarching "me".

  5. #25
    Badoom~ Skyward's Avatar
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    I skimmed the first page, so sorry if I'm rehashing or posting a total non-sequitur.

    It seems that ENFs are worse off in some situations because people will see them as, for lack of a better term at the moment, an NF right away, unlike an INF who might be seen as a T until one gets to know them. This might be from how forward the ENF is in life and how much more likely it is for them to express an 'NF feeling/though' whereas an INF is more tactical, from my experience anyway.

    This usually means the ENF gets their foot in their mouth more often than the INF. The first instinct for an ENF is to react and DO compared to, from what I've seen in myself and other INF friends, INFs who tend to think too much.


    I think what really defines an NF man is their sensitivity to things beyond what, say, an SF man would be sensitive to. We are are more paranoid, I would think, because intuition wants to see beyond things; reading too deeply into things also poses a problem that I wouldn't associate with SFs as they seem to follow more concrete actions. People also like things they can understand. My ISFP friend would rather listen to Metallica or Dethklok at heavy decibels while playing Halo and drinking Mountain Dew, whereas I myself don't even know what I truly enjoy. It seems to me also that SFs (especially SFPs) prefer not to discuss what they value, rather they would want to DO something with it to show people. People trust that more.

    I guess I should just say what I've been trying to avoid. It seems that NF men seem more complex in interests and how they think compared to SF men. What I DON'T want people to think is that 'complex' means 'better.' Complex just means complex. 'Simpler' doesn't mean 'worse' either. It just means 'simpler.' People have their preferences. Some people might argue that NF men aren't even more complex than SF men, rather, that they just have different issues in certain areas, and those issues are less common, so less people know how to deal with them, making NF men harder to deal with.

    Just my side of it. Take it or leave it.
    'Imperfection is beauty, madness is genius and its better to be absolutely ridiculous than absolutely boring.' - Marilyn Monroe

    This is who I am, escapist, paradise-seeker.
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    Anthropology Major out of Hamline University. St. Paul, Minnesota.

  6. #26
    Member Phenix's Avatar
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    I agree Hexis is NF. I also find him tedious with the maturity of a 15 year old. I've been in three wars and witnessed the effects of his kind of unbridled adolescent behavior. Really Hexis, nobody gives a sh!t what you think. If that makes me a pussy then sign me up.

  7. #27
    Charting a course
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hexis View Post
    ....unless of course your a guy who was easily offended by the above. In that case I probably was talking about you. All else, thanks for putting up with me.
    I am so offended, I may just cry...






  8. #28
    Badoom~ Skyward's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Biaxident View Post
    I am so offended, I may just cry...

    I know a phrase that would make an NF like you cry: 'I only like you for your muscles. Let's just be friends.'

    'Imperfection is beauty, madness is genius and its better to be absolutely ridiculous than absolutely boring.' - Marilyn Monroe

    This is who I am, escapist, paradise-seeker.
    -Nightwish

    Anthropology Major out of Hamline University. St. Paul, Minnesota.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skyward View Post
    I know a phrase that would make an NF like you cry: 'I only like you for your muscles. Let's just be friends.'

    No...It would probably piss me off.

    And since I don't find being friends with shallow people all that interesting, that would be the last time I associated with that person.

  10. #30
    Badoom~ Skyward's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Biaxident View Post
    No...It would probably piss me off.

    And since I don't find being friends with shallow people all that interesting, that would be the last time I associated with that person.
    'I only like you for your personality. Lets just be friends.'

    Fixed?
    'Imperfection is beauty, madness is genius and its better to be absolutely ridiculous than absolutely boring.' - Marilyn Monroe

    This is who I am, escapist, paradise-seeker.
    -Nightwish

    Anthropology Major out of Hamline University. St. Paul, Minnesota.

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