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  1. #51
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by teslashock View Post
    Protean, it's not a misapplication of function theory to attempt to correlate value systems and "ideologies" with cognitive functions. There are certain functions and combinations of functions that may be inclined to produce a racist frame of mind. This doesn't mean that anybody with said combinations of functions is going to be racist, nor does it mean that anybody lacking such combinations won't be racist. There's nothing wrong with formulating abstract associations and looking for trends, though.

    Furthermore, correlating function theory with racism is certainly not a "scapegoat" for racism. When has anybody ever tried to use their personality and psyche as a scapegoat? That would go something like, "I know I'm a terrible person, but it's just because of my personality and cognitive processes, I swear!!" That's not a very convincing excuse, imho...
    What's your proof for the bolded? You were the one to assert that Si and Fe were responsible for the promulgation of racism. How did you reach that conclusion?

    Quote Originally Posted by SolitaryWalker View Post
    What are you surprised about? This is the inevitable result of folk typology. Its purpose is not understand any phenomenon about the world, but to give people an opportunity to enage in a group activity. This forum is composed mostly of angsty adolescents and people in their 20ies who attain a sense of communion with another by alienating the plebeans. That is the joy of being an 'Intuitive' in this community. The very definition of this term now refers to anyone whose superb intelligence or uniquness of character alienates him or her from the masses. This, of course is almost never due to a fault of the hero, he or she is estranged only because of the stupidity and the cruelty of the multitude. Since such qualities are definitive of racism, it is only fitting that this community shall be inclined to think that there is an intimate connection between this social plight and the character of the masses who are symbolically represented by the Si and Te types.
    Yeah, you're right. I momentarily forgot this.
    Last edited by proteanmix; 02-02-2010 at 10:34 PM. Reason: merged posts
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
    Interpersonal Communication Theories and Concepts
    Social Penetration Theory 1
    Social Penetration Theory 2
    Social Penetration Theory 3

  2. #52
    Vaguely Precise Seymour's Avatar
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    I'll try to field what I think Jaguar was getting at by quoting Lenore Thomson on introverted feeling.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thomson p367
    Moral choices prompted by Introverted Feeling are not derived from legal principles or the social obligations that accrue to our roles in the world. They're derived from the subjective experience of being human, our will to deal with a situation in terms of human ideals. [...] This is precisely what Introverted Feeling does: it bypasses structural considerations and puts human value first. Such discrimination is unquestionably illogical, but it's in no way irrational. Indeed, to place human value above statistical risk isn't possible without the ability to reason.
    and few pages later:

    Quote Originally Posted by Thomson p371
    IFPs, who use Introverted Feeling for their dominant approah to flie, are drawn, more than any other type, to medical and religious occupations [...] which allow them to take humane action transcending conventional Extraverted conceptual and social boundaries.
    And she goes on to critique Introverted Feeling in pop culture:

    Quote Originally Posted by Thomson p380
    The only kind of world in which Introverted Feeling could possibly obtain as a primary source of social justice Judgment is a chaotic, unpredictable one in which the systems designed to protect the community have no power to do so.
    and later:

    Quote Originally Posted by Thomson p381
    It undisputably calls society to account, but it doesn't suggest a substitute paradigm for social relationships.
    So all of the above seems to be getting at healthy Fi acting as a rebalancing force when the needs of the individual are being trampled by the societal structures, because it doesn't care about practicality or social order.

    I don't think it follows the Fi-doms were solely responsible for desegregation or that they didn't (and don't) have a part in racism, but Fi does seem to act as a force that calls out behalf of the needs of the individual, even when the existing system works for most. Fi, at is best, re-humanizes a system at forces it to acknowledge the people for whom it works the least well. But it takes other functions to build a coherent social system that is more just.

    So... I don't think it's fair to blame racism on any particular function, or to suggest that Fi-doms didn't play their roles in creating and perpetuating racism; Fi-doms are great at screening out data that don't match their preconceptions. But I do think it's fine to acknowledge that healthy Fi, at it's best, can act as a kind of brake on unjust systems. It's important to acknowledge after Fi has done its part, the more just systems that follow aren't generally created by Fi, but by other functions that take the judgements of Fi into account to create a more just societal order.

    But functions aren't people, and there are many functional routes to justice and injustice both.

  3. #53
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    No one is stopping you from speaking your mind. As long as you're not flaming and trolling anyone you are in no danger of anything.
    As long as mods aren't personally annoyed with your perspective, you mean. Funny how this tends to get automatically interpreted as flaming/trolling because a certain moderator doesn't like the point you're making.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    It must be nice to be able to wear a mod hat and speak your mind, but others can't.
    +1

    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    go back reread everything you just read but this time with some reading comprehension and critical thinking skills.
    So here you're implying that others have no reading comprehension/critical thinking skills whatsoever? That sounds kind of personally insulting--good thing you don't have to worry about mods showing up and disciplining you, since apparently flaming via insulting people's reading comprehension and critical thinking is acceptable when proteanmix doesn't like what others are saying.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  4. #54
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Seymour thank you for trying, but no.

    Healthy any function coupled with critical thinking skills and the ability to distinguish right from wrong can do exactly what you just described. If you're claiming that Fi has some super ability to distinguish right from wrong and is naturally morally superior than other functions, which this part of your post seems to suggest:
    ...but Fi does seem to act as a force that calls out behalf of the needs of the individual, even when the existing system works for most. Fi, at is best, re-humanizes a system at forces it to acknowledge the people for for whom it works the least well. But it takes other functions to build a coherent social system that is more just.
    right now, I'm still struggling with how to formulate a response to that mindset. I'm not for all the Fi-hating that has gone on on the forum and if some people feel a need to redeem that function this is not the way to do it. Elevating Fi to some heroic status at the expense of other functions does not help at all and I view the people who are doing it as shallow.

    I'm not particularly keen on getting in a debate about race which is where this discussion seems to be heading, but first and foremost racism is based on ideological principles of superiority. If you would like to know more about those then I've already suggested a book that explains many of those ideologies.

    If people even want to go there about the role typological functions play in racism, at least pretend to be unbiased about functions and explain equally and fairly how each function would theoretically manifest racism and racist tendencies and how each function would theoretically resist and fight against it. Arguments can be made on either side about why any function would support racist ideologies. Don't demonize Si and Fe and elevate Fi to bolster self-esteem and apparent need for superiority.

    Quite frankly, I've always thought of the way some people on the forum talk about sensors as analogous to racism. I've read popular forum members frequently saying they could never be in a relationship with an SJ. I've always wondered if you substitute SJ for Black Person or Illiterate Person would people be as likely to make those statements. The boldness these people have in saying comments like this would be reprehensible if one of those other more salient types of people (poor, illiterate, diseased, mentally ill) and all hell would rain down upon a person who dares to say such a thing.

    These forum mores literally change from thread to thread, OK in one thread, tarred and feathered in another.
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
    Interpersonal Communication Theories and Concepts
    Social Penetration Theory 1
    Social Penetration Theory 2
    Social Penetration Theory 3

  5. #55
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    I'm not for all the Fi-hating that has gone on on the forum
    :yim_rolling_on_the_
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

  6. #56
    Geolectric teslashock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    What's your proof for the bolded? You were the one to assert that Si and Fe were responsible for the promulgation of racism. How did you reach that conclusion?
    I have no proof. How many times does it need to be said that typology isn't provable? It's an abstract labeling system, so I'm unable to prove anything about function theory.

    I can give you abstract theoretical reasons as to why Si/Fe might yield a racist belief system, and the reasons will be based on how Si/Fe affects one's cognitive processes. I don't think that all racists are Si/Fe-ers, nor do I think that all Si/Fe-ers are racists. I also don't think that Si/Fe as functions themselves align with racist ideals. However, I do think that Si/Fe, moreso than other functions, can have a tendency to yield a racist ideology, especially in regards to the American racist.

    Again, it's important to note that I do not think the principles of racism as an ideology are in any way aligned with the cognitive governance that occurs as a result of Si and Fe. I do not believe that Si/Fe in and of themselves yield a belief that says one race is superior to all the others or that Si/Fe are responsible for instilling the kind of fear that it takes to believe that your own race is superior. I simply believe that Si/Fe can perpetuate racism in an environment that already upholds racist ideals (thus cause racism in America on a societal scale).

    Anyway, here's my reasoning:

    Brief (and perhaps somewhat oversimplified) historical summary of racism in America:

    Africans were brought here as slaves and treated as inferiors for generations.
    Africans, as opposed to other ethnicities (I know there are many many many African ethnicities, but I'm trying to be succinct here), were vulnerable to slavery for a whole slew of reasons, but essentially their vulnerability was due to certain social dynamics occurring in many areas on African soil and the European belief that those of a different color skin were "savages" and easiest to conquer and use in garnering some kind of profit.
    Slavery was abolished in America after many generations of legality, and it would be another 100 years before African Americans even began to experience the extent of their freedom. This is because Americans, for generations, were raised in a world where blacks were treated as inferior beings, and certain societal stigmas existed due to past experience (Si), and such societal stigmas were upheld on an individual level (Fe).

    Why I correlate the aforementioned with Si and Fe:

    Si causes us to store data from our experiences and refer back to it in order to contrast the current moment with the past. Therefore, Si may yield a conscious value system that is based off of tradition, and an Si-er may be inclined to adhere to what he or she has always known. This can make an Si-er more susceptible to certain forms of indoctrination (familial or societal) and an inability to break out of the "what has always been" shell. Therefore, one who was raised in a racist world and witnessed the inferior treatment of African Americans (during slavery or post-slavery) would adhere to the belief that African Americans are indeed inferior because this is what experience tells them.

    Gather data from experience --> store it in a database --> refer back to it in the current moment as a roadmap to guide you through new experiences

    Repeatedly witness blacks treated as inferiors and see that a society in which blacks are treated as inferiors is a contented society --> Store this knowledge --> continue to treat blacks as inferiors because it correlates with the contentedness of society and changing from this may cause a disruption to such content

    In short, American society as a whole continued to believe that blacks were inferior because this is what we always witnessed to be true. We referred to our past data and concluded that since blacks were brought here to be inferiors and were always treated as inferiors, they will thus always be inferiors because that's the way it has always been. Si is the function responsible for this kind of thought process.

    Fe, on the other hand, has a tendency to cause the Fe-er to adhere to certain social norms and group values (especially when accompanied by Si) for the sake of maintaining a sense of outer social harmony. Therefore, one who is raised in a predominantly racist world will adhere to racist ideology because that's the social law. Fe may cause one to have the unconscious thought process that says "I'm a proud American, Americans are racist, so in order to uphold a sense of pride for my nationality, I will be racist as well." You can substitute any group identity for American into the former sentence, and the cognitive state will still align with Fe. The Fe-er wants to fit in with current social mores because that causes the most optimal sense of outer harmony, and this is another reason for why one who is raised under a racist ideology may not have any interest in breaking through the confines of such a belief.

    Again, and it sucks that I even need to add in such a disclaimer:

    I do not believe that all Si or Fe-ers are racists, that all racists are Si or Fe-ers, or that Si and Fe as cognitive functions definitively align with racism.
    Last edited by teslashock; 02-03-2010 at 11:33 AM.

  7. #57
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by teslashock View Post
    Again, and it sucks that I even need to add in such a disclaimer:

    I do not believe that all Si or Fe-ers are racists, that all racists are Si or Fe-ers, or that Si and Fe as cognitive functions definitively align with racism.
    Amazing how nobody needs such a disclaimer until his group is the one being generalized about, isn't it?


    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    Quite frankly, I've always thought of the way some people on the forum talk about sensors as analogous to racism. I've read popular forum members frequently saying they could never be in a relationship with an SJ. I've always wondered if you substitute SJ for Black Person or Illiterate Person would people be as likely to make those statements.
    Maybe you'd have a point if being black or illiterate actually correlated with personal values the way being an SJ does.

    "I could never date an SJ" is a much more reasonable statement because "SJ" is a description of the things that are important to a person in life. Since we (hopefully) choose mates based on how their values and personalities align with ours, it's far more reasonable to dismiss potential mates on the basis of cognitive functional priorities than on the basis of race or other meaningless demographic.
    Last edited by proteanmix; 02-03-2010 at 01:08 AM. Reason: edited for thread continuity
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  8. #58
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by teslashock View Post
    I have no proof. How many times does it need to be said that typology isn't provable? It's an abstract labeling system, so I'm unable to prove anything about function theory.
    And then I stopped right there. Because that means that anything you said after that was fuel for Carpal Tunnel Syndrome and probably not worth typing out.

    You want to infer and connect two things that by your own admission can't be connected, proven or supported. Which means what you said earlier in the thread was nonsense that can be disregarded and will be. So then we sit looking at each other saying "Well you can't prove it!" "Neither can you!"

    When you make an unfounded claim as large as trying to connect racism to SJs...well solitarywalker already said it for me. If you're just throwing out ideas without really thinking of the validity or implications of what you're saying then I'm asking you to take and think about this particular idea you're throwing out and if you really mean to say what you're saying.

    I'm going to cut out of the thread now...you can respond to this post but I won't be putting any more energy towards this topic because I've already formally registered how silly I think these claims are. If you want to argue in favor of why basically SJs are uh, petri dishes for racism then feel free.
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
    Interpersonal Communication Theories and Concepts
    Social Penetration Theory 1
    Social Penetration Theory 2
    Social Penetration Theory 3

  9. #59
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by teslashock View Post
    I have no proof. How many times does it need to be said that typology isn't provable? It's an abstract labeling system, so I'm unable to prove anything about function theory.
    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    And then I stopped right there. Because that means that anything you said after that was fuel for Carpal Tunnel Syndrome and probably not worth typing out.

    You want to infer and connect two things that by your own admission can't be connected, proven or supported. Which means what you said earlier in the thread was nonsense that can be disregarded and will be. So then we sit looking at each other saying "Well you can't prove it!" "Neither can you!"
    Are you joking? We can't even prove that anyone belongs to any given type category, since all the categories are arbitrarily defined and untestable.

    Nothing involving typology can ever be proven at all! How on earth can you use "OMG IT CAN'T BE PROVEN!!!" as an argument against any theory about typological correlations? For that matter, what the hell are you doing on a typology forum if you need empirical proof before considering any of these ideas worthwhile?

    Can we rename this thread, "The trouble with inferior Ti"? It's starting to look like a much more appropriate title, given the most recent content.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  10. #60
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Off topic posts moved here.
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
    Interpersonal Communication Theories and Concepts
    Social Penetration Theory 1
    Social Penetration Theory 2
    Social Penetration Theory 3

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