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  1. #91
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    It's not the belief per se. It's the utter myopia to the policy implications of those views.

    Just because you might be able to hold an idea as a value-neutral fact, doesn't mean others won't get very emotionally charged about the same thing, and act upon it, or that people won't try to exploit that idea to their own ends.

    You can't escape politics.

  2. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    It's not the belief per se. It's the utter myopia to the policy implications of those views.

    Just because you might be able to hold an idea as a value-neutral fact, doesn't mean others won't get very emotionally charged about the same thing, and act upon it, or that people won't try to exploit that idea to their own ends.

    You can't escape politics.
    Could you be more specific? BTW--why would I want to escape politics? What does that mean?

  3. #93
    Geolectric teslashock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nebbykoo View Post
    Yet you haven't made any association. How about these:

    What type is most greedy?
    How about most-likely to objectify women?
    When did I ever say that any type is most likely to be racist?

    I said that certain functions may lend themselves to racist views.

    I never made any claims about the type ratios of racists or the percentage of certain types that are racist. That would be a fundamentally absurd thing to do.

    (if you can answer the question regarding racism, then these questions shouldn't be off limits.)
    Agreed, and I could give you some functions that might lend themselves to greed and the objectification of women.

    The way I see typology is as a descriptive device, not a predictive one. I can say: this person is racist, this person is an XXXX, so this is the cognitive reason that said person upholds racist ideals.

    Type is not a good predictive tool, as our behaviors/values are not only a manifestation of our cognitive predispositions. Type X brought up in one environment may be completely different from Type X brought up in another environment. Two people of the same type who experience the world differently are bound to be different, regardless of that which drives their cognition.

    It's probable that there are aspects to the human condition that are not dreamt of in your philosophy....but it does raise this question: what does it profit two entp's to band together and argue the inarguable?
    Two ENTPs? What? Last I checked there was just one mind monopolizing my brain.

    And as far as "profit"? Well, if you see entertainment as a currency, then I suppose I'm a modern-day Rockefeller...

  4. #94
    Geolectric teslashock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    Just because you might be able to hold an idea as a value-neutral fact, doesn't mean others won't get very emotionally charged about the same thing, and act upon it, or that people won't try to exploit that idea to their own ends.
    Agreed.

    But does that mean that we should withhold from formulating ideas that have the potential to offend or be exploited?

  5. #95
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by teslashock View Post
    Agreed.

    But does that mean that we should withhold from formulating ideas that have the potential to offend or be exploited?
    Of course not. It's just wiser to be judicious in the dissemination of the raw ideas without refinement.

    For example, it isn't very judicious to say that there is a genetic component to the difference in intelligence between persons of African descent and European descent, when we can't even define what intelligence is in the first place.

  6. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    Of course not. It's just wiser to be judicious in the dissemination of the raw ideas without refinement.

    For example, it isn't very judicious to say that there is a genetic component to the difference in intelligence between persons of African descent and European descent, when we can't even define what intelligence is in the first place.
    Ah, fair enough.

    I don't think what I said was nearly as provocative as the above, however (but don't listen to an ENTP for social etiquette ). Nor was it made to sound nearly as scientific and empirical. Genetics is a science. Typology ain't!

  7. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by teslashock View Post
    Ah, fair enough.

    I don't think what I said was nearly as provocative as the above, however (but don't listen to an ENTP for social etiquette ). Nor was it made to sound nearly as scientific and empirical. Genetics is a science. Typology ain't!
    Yeah, but it does promote some stereotypes, namely that SJs are idiotic conservatives, NFs (especially NFPs) are irrational liberals, so on and so forth, when experience has shown that this isn't necessarily the case at all.

  8. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    it isn't very judicious to say that there is a genetic component to the difference in intelligence between persons of African descent and European descent, when we can't even define what intelligence is in the first place.
    For the purposes of the above "intelligence" is fairly well, if imperfectly, defined.

    Amazon.com: The g Factor: The Science of Mental Ability (Human Evolution, Behavior, and Intelligence) (9780275961039): Arthur R. Jensen: Books

    Stalking the Wild Taboo -Jensen's The g Factor

  9. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    Yeah, but it does promote some stereotypes, namely that SJs are idiotic conservatives, NFs (especially NFPs) are irrational liberals, so on and so forth, when experience has shown that this isn't necessarily the case at all.
    Again, agreed.

    I don't think there's too much wrong with generalizing/stereotyping based on archetypal ideas, just as long as we are willing to admit that stereotypes may not hold as much basis in reality as we tend to give them credit, that on an individual level, stereotypes mean nothing, and that most stereotypes are theoretical and susceptible to confirmation bias, so we still need to approach reality with an open mind in any given situation.

    The fact that people are unable to escape the confines of stereotyping when analyzing the world is pretty obnoxious, but again, I don't believe that this implies that it's wrong to generalize on a theoretical level.

  10. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by teslashock View Post
    Again, agreed.

    I don't think there's too much wrong with generalizing/stereotyping based on archetypal ideas, just as long as we are willing to admit that stereotypes may not hold as much basis in reality as we tend to give them credit, that on an individual level, stereotypes mean nothing, and that most stereotypes are theoretical and susceptible to confirmation bias, so we still need to approach reality with an open mind in any given situation.

    The fact that people are unable to escape the confines of stereotyping when analyzing the world is pretty obnoxious, but again, I don't believe that this implies that it's wrong to generalize on a theoretical level.
    It's not, but it does lead to some very nasty things. The 20th Century is the story of that.

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