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  1. #51
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Oh come on! You over-simplified the ISFP and you added something onto the INFP I never alluded to at all. You're just revealing your unwarranted connotative extrapolations.
    It's called exaggeration to make a point, and for humorous effect.


    I am immedietely skeptical of any universal right and wrong. But that point aside, in what way does this definition of Fi conflict with my examples?
    It's not a universal right and wrong. Read it again. The interpretation of what the Fi-dom feels from their collective unconscious is very personal, but the collective unconscious is not personal - that's where the universal aspect comes in. Maybe you don't like the idea of the collective unconscious - well, that's your opinion then, but it's a part of Jung's theory....

    Quote Originally Posted by Jung
    [the collective unconscious] does not derive from personal experience and is not a personal acquisition but is inborn...universal...[and] more or less the same everywhere and in all individuals.
    My problem with the examples was the way they made both types seem ridiculous. Hence, my response which mocked it.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

  2. #52
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    It's called exaggeration to make a point, and for humorous effect.
    This response is... The word I'm looking for is not ironic, though people would frequently misuse the word ironic here. I'll get to it later...


    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    It's not a universal right and wrong. Read it again. The interpretation of what the Fi-dom feels from their collective unconscious is very personal, but the collective unconscious is not personal - that's where the universal aspect comes in. Maybe you don't like the idea of the collective unconscious - well, that's your opinion then, but it's a part of Jung's theory....
    I do disagree with collective conscious. I know it's a part of Jung's theories. The MBTI is heavily drawn from but not precisely Jung's ideas.

    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    My problem with the examples was the way they made both types seem ridiculous. Hence, my response which mocked it.
    Yes, both types seem ridiculous, so no N or S bias. And did you just assume that because they were both Fi-doms, I was making Fi to be ridiculous? Look back at what I said in my first post.

    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    It's really hard to give situational examples that aren't overly simple stereotypes...
    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    But if you want me to make a massively general characterization, it goes like this:
    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    In my silly example, the ISFP gets carried away with the practical experiences, while the INFP gets carried away with the theoretical speculations.
    I made it explicitly clear that the viewer was looking at caricature. This does not inherently discredit an example, though. The examples, however colorful, are fine if they still make the vital points. We can talk about what qualities define Fi, Se, or Ne, but debating it by going after rather trivial details of a knowingly absurd example is not the way to go about it (my choice of the word glut might have been a give away).

    Conveying abstract parts of the human condition through exaggerated characters is literally an ancient practice. The reason this is done is because it's very hard to convey the abstractions. As I said previously, my only aternative was to make a theoretical model, which is what I usually do, by far. I had actually started writing quite a bit along those lines before I scrapped it all, because I realized that's not what they OP asked for.

    But the thing is, since I do have a lot of experience with presenting the bare bones of cognitive type, I find that when people don't just ignore it all together, they tend to respond with "I don't get it. " or "I coudn't really get into what Magic was writing", the main exceptions being people who I already know are seasoned scholars of this subject and don't need me to inform them.

    Soooo... When I actually decide, once in a blue moon, to respect the wishes of someone else to have a more tangible example, I'm reminded why I don't usually do that. I can never see what error it will be in my example that will be exploited. Sometimes I'm completely blind-sided with irrelevant details I never anticipated causing contention. "Well, in your example, you said Sally was wearing purple, and I don't think that's a very ISTJ color" .
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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    Live and let live will just amount to might makes right

  3. #53
    Senior Member Kastor's Avatar
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    I've always had difficult understanding the order of functions, how they work, etc. But I suppose I'll just gave to read into it.

    And yeah, specific examples are difficult because no one is purely Si or Ni, I s'pose. Like myself, personally, I enjoy a bit happier movies these days because I have my own issues with getting too deeply into disturbing subjects and freaking myself out.
    [SIGPIC]http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb37/KamikazePigeonOnFire/untitled-39.jpg[/SIGPIC]

  4. #54
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    I'm noticing as I look over this again that there also seems to be an assumed premise that right and wrong cannot concern/pertain to aesthetics, and I have no idea why.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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    Live and let live will just amount to might makes right

  5. #55
    Senior Member Kastor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    I'm noticing as I look over this again that there also seems to be an assumed premise that right and wrong cannot concern/pertain to aesthetics, and I have no idea why.
    Could you explain this further, please?
    [SIGPIC]http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb37/KamikazePigeonOnFire/untitled-39.jpg[/SIGPIC]

  6. #56
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Yes, both types seem ridiculous, so no N or S bias. And did you just assume that because they were both Fi-doms, I was making Fi to be ridiculous? Look back at what I said in my first post.

    I made it explicitly clear that the viewer was looking at caricature. This does not inherently discredit an example, though. The examples, however colorful, are fine if they still make the vital points. We can talk about what qualities define Fi, Se, or Ne, but debating it by going after rather trivial details of a knowingly absurd example is not the way to go about it (my choice of the word glut might have been a give away).

    Conveying abstract parts of the human condition through exaggerated characters is literally an ancient practice. The reason this is done is because it's very hard to convey the abstractions. As I said previously, my only aternative was to make a theoretical model, which is what I usually do, by far. I had actually started writing quite a bit along those lines before I scrapped it all, because I realized that's not what they OP asked for.

    But the thing is, since I do have a lot of experience with presenting the bare bones of cognitive type, I find that when people don't just ignore it all together, they tend to respond with "I don't get it. " or "I coudn't really get into what Magic was writing", the main exceptions being people who I already know are seasoned scholars of this subject and don't need me to inform them.

    Soooo... When I actually decide, once in a blue moon, to respect the wishes of someone else to have a more tangible example, I'm reminded why I don't usually do that. I can never see what error it will be in my example that will be exploited. Sometimes I'm completely blind-sided with irrelevant details I never anticipated causing contention. "Well, in your example, you said Sally was wearing purple, and I don't think that's a very ISTJ color" .
    It's typical for NTs to speak of Feeling in "silly" examples, yet not so much with Thinking functions. Besides, your examples did not ring true for me. That was my point. I don't feel the need to discuss this any further. I didn't like your post....get over it.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

  7. #57
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kastor View Post
    Could you explain this further, please?
    Oh, I just meant that one of the remarks about my painting of Fi-Se seems to be that Fi can't really be about right and wrong in terms of aesthetics or tastes, like in food, music, art, etc... If I leave it to abstract ideas, then the Fi is acknowledged, but if I talk about those more concrete things, I have apparently left Fi out and am only talking about Se.

    Though, it should be considered that pure Se could never, ever be shown reasoning something as right or wrong. Reasoning, right, and wrong, being the words that don't belong in Se.

    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    It's typical for NTs to speak of Feeling in "silly" examples, yet not so much with Thinking functions. Besides, your examples did not ring true for me.
    You know, I didn't really like you having to bring up that I was NT then, and I don't like it now. It's ad hominem, and it creates circular problems to discuss type in terms of the types discussing it.

    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    That was my point. I don't feel the need to discuss this any further. I didn't like your post....get over it.
    I can get over anyone not liking my posts. It might take longer for me to get over the reason that someone disliked my posts. Besides, why would I just cut off? You should have expected response to a critique.

    But no matter, be on your way.
    Last edited by Magic Poriferan; 02-02-2010 at 03:17 PM.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  8. #58
    Senior Member Kastor's Avatar
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    I'm not sure what the big deal is. Your post seems fine to me, MP o.o
    [SIGPIC]http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb37/KamikazePigeonOnFire/untitled-39.jpg[/SIGPIC]

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