[NF] Not being NF is not enough of an excuse

[Ivy]

I always approve of toonia's posts and their implications. I just wish she made more of them.

 

[kyuuei]

But this talk about hurting people for their own good. It doesn't fit my idea of empathy. If you hurt them for their own good you would have to do it with empathy, because otherwise you are not doing it for their good, but to defend yourself. And the old saying before the whipping started, this is for your own good, this will hurt me more than you. I am sure it has been used as much with the meaning "the society doesn't allow your actions, so you need to not be you", that is, without empathy. The stern father is afraid of being humiliated by his peers because of his son's eccentric behavior, or something like that.

I definitely feel these words here. I think it's all through different means.. For us NF'y people, it's empathy and emotion that drives us to this concept of hurting people for their own good. Empathy might not at all be in the equation for a thinker (hurting for their own good because logically they've come to the conclusion this needs to be done.. whether that conclusion emotionally effects them or not is irrelevent to the situation, or is an afterthought).. My mutual friends ENFP and ISTJ would both tell me that the times they would fight about a subject, it wouldn't be about the end result as usually this was the same.. but the pathways they took to get to that result were drastically different.

It's people being emotionally lazy imo. I have those moments too. I'm ok with people not doing the emotionally proper thing, as long as they don't get on my case about being 'logically' lazy, coz I feel that drains me if done constantly. Hypocrisy, meh. Let people just be who they are and realize we all have got our preferences and weaknesses. The thing that pisses me off is when someone gets rude about you not obliging to *their* logical standard when explaining shit. And then when you call them on it, they're like..oh my god, don't be such a baby. That's just..yeah. Take a look in the mirror.

+1. Try not to complain and belittle my ways, and I'll try to do the same for you.

 

[miss fortune]

I just don't get how oblivious a lot of people seem to be to the feelings of others. How can you say/do certain types of things and not understand, or suspect, that you're hurting the other person? I know NFs are supposed to be hyper-sensitive to this kind of thing and we're supposed to have a natural advantage...but I don't know that this is even all that type-related. If you have that big of a blind spot to other people's feelings or the types of things that are likely to hurt, you've got a problem - most likely that you just don't care that much about anyone's feelings except your own. Apparently even saying "sorry if that came across as insensitive" is too damn hard for so many people.

Hm, I'm not having a good week...

as one of those evilly insensitive people, I'm going to weigh in a bit here (sorry, didn't read through the whole thread, I'm also doing dishes! )

usually, I tend to speak without thinking- I end up saying something insensitive without it even occurring to me that I'm doing so- my sister is very good at pointing this out to me in a very angry ENFJish manner If I realize I've been an ass, I'll appologize, and probably trip over myself trying to explain WHY I said it, which is also apparently the wrong response

I've talked to other ExTPs who have the same problem...

The point I'm trying to make is that we're not being assholes on purpose- we're just not that in tune with what's going on all of the time

 

[notsweetynice]

Some people are just blunt and less sensitive and don't realize how mean they've been, but a lot of people (and nobody is going to admit to this) do intend to hurt. They have a major aggressive and hateful streak and this seems to exist equally in Fs and Ts...When they feel threatened, insecure or jealous watch out. These people can be nice most of the time and then turn into a different person when the 'claws' come out.

 

[BlackCat]

I find that knowing where people comes from helps a lot. I used to think that a lot of people were insensitive (but I never really cared), but then I realized that some of these people didn't know any better or didn't have the intent of offending. I think that jenocyde made a good point. She treats people as she wants to be treated; and is shocked when they get offended. I think that this is what a lot of T types do. All that I personally have to do to not get offended by people when they don't mean it is to simply tell myself that. Have some empathy for those who are like that. After I started to do that I started to enjoy T's a lot more, and I think that they enjoy me a lot more too.

Another thing that I learned from having this mindset is that my feelings aren't the most important thing in the world. If you ignore your feelings social situations (which usually aren't right due to subjectivity and the totally different ways of seeing things) and get to the core of the interaction, then there you go. Hell, ignoring my feelings whenever possible has gotten me the best results; and in seeing that result my feelings are better.

I also think it's funny how a lot of people complain about people who aren't as conscious of feelings (mostly NFs), but they themselves don't have the capacity to be empathetic enough to understand where they are coming from with not being conscious of other's emotions.

It's just another thing to deal with. You can't "fix" something like that in a person. It's just another character trait. That's what typology is all about. Some people are just genuinely bad with other people's inner feelings (E_TPs being the worst), and as you can see this manifests itself in various ways.

Also, @ SilkRoad- don't be around people who make you feel unsettled. I'm just sharing my experience and perspective, and I'm not trying to accuse you of anything. If these kinds of people make you feel bad, then by all means don't hang around them. No need to be masochistic.

 

[proteanmix]

I find that knowing where people comes from helps a lot. I used to think that a lot of people were insensitive (but I never really cared), but then I realized that some of these people didn't know any better or didn't have the intent of offending. I think that jenocyde made a good point. She treats people as she wants to be treated; and is shocked when they get offended. I think that this is what a lot of T types do. All that I personally have to do to not get offended by people when they don't mean it is to simply tell myself that. Have some empathy for those who are like that. After I started to do that I started to enjoy T's a lot more, and I think that they enjoy me a lot more too.

Another thing that I learned from having this mindset is that my feelings aren't the most important thing in the world. If you ignore your feelings social situations (which usually aren't right due to subjectivity and the totally different ways of seeing things) and get to the core of the interaction, then there you go. Hell, ignoring my feelings whenever possible has gotten me the best results; and in seeing that result my feelings are better.

I also think it's funny how a lot of people complain about people who aren't as conscious of feelings (mostly NFs), but they themselves don't have the capacity to be empathetic enough to understand where they are coming from with not being conscious of other's emotions.

It's just another thing to deal with. You can't "fix" something like that in a person. It's just another character trait. That's what typology is all about. Some people are just genuinely bad with other people's inner feelings (E_TPs being the worst), and as you can see this manifests itself in various ways.

Also, @ SilkRoad- don't be around people who make you feel unsettled. I'm just sharing my experience and perspective, and I'm not trying to accuse you of anything. If these kinds of people make you feel bad, then by all means don't hang around them. No need to be masochistic.

I really agree with this post. I learned when I've let go of "personal" offense by realizing it's not about me, then I stopped being offended by about 85% of what people say and do. There are some situations where it's difficult to let go of this attitude (distinguishing between what people mean and what they don't mean...basically what notsweetynice alluded to), but in my casual interactions I'm going to have to say I agree with the ExTPs who've chimed in.

 

[miss fortune]

I really agree with this post. I learned when I've let go of "personal" offense by realizing it's not about me, then I stopped being offended by about 85% of what people say and do. There are some situations where it's difficult to let go of this attitude (distinguishing between what people mean and what they don't mean...basically what notsweetynice alluded to), but in my casual interactions I'm going to have to say I agree with the ExTPs who've chimed in.

I really really wish that all NFs would realize this!

A lot of the time I don't hang out with strong feelers because it's exhausting to have to tiptoe through the minefield and to FORCE myself to think "will this be construed as offensive?" before speaking when I'm not even used to thinking before speaking!

I mean, I try, but too much time with someone who's super touchy will always leave me running off to hide and calling my ESTJ best friend to bitch (she does the same to me)

My sis and I had this argument over the holidays- she got mad at me for some comment that I'd made because she misconstued it and took it personally- she yelled at me and I didn't even realize I'd done anything wrong!

 

[Biaxident]

I really really wish that all NFs would realize this!

A lot of the time I don't hang out with strong feelers because it's exhausting to have to tiptoe through the minefield and to FORCE myself to think "will this be construed as offensive?" before speaking when I'm not even used to thinking before speaking!

I mean, I try, but too much time with someone who's super touchy will always leave me running off to hide and calling my ESTJ best friend to bitch (she does the same to me)

My sis and I had this argument over the holidays- she got mad at me for some comment that I'd made because she misconstued it and took it personally- she yelled at me and I didn't even realize I'd done anything wrong!

I'm offended!

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

I always approve of toonia's posts and their implications. I just wish she made more of them.

I wanted to be clear that I know your statement is balanced showing the issue from the other view.

My point is to say that taking this idea in either extreme can produce problematic results.

In the end it is also somewhat irrelevant whether or not a person has worked out a personal justification for dismissing reason or empathy because either way the person has to face the consequences of taking a particular approach and/or dismissing another approach. Rationalizations just tend to keep things more deeply entrenched and less adaptable.

I find that knowing where people comes from helps a lot. I used to think that a lot of people were insensitive (but I never really cared), but then I realized that some of these people didn't know any better or didn't have the intent of offending...

Your entire post was

In the end it would seem that accurate empathy would make a person less sensitive because it makes them more aware of the actual perspective of the other person. I have maintained a connection with one of my mentors who is exceptionally direct and offends a great many people, but I can see clearly how different her intent is from the way people keep interpreting her. She is mystified by "Midwestern politeness" and struggles to understand how these people think. Why do they initially say "no" if they mean "yes"? Why do they not speak up and just say what they mean? Why would they be offended by something that is correct and true? We formed a special connection because she can see I tend towards that same politeness, but also am never offended by her.

 

[BlackCat]

I really agree with this post. I learned when I've let go of "personal" offense by realizing it's not about me, then I stopped being offended by about 85% of what people say and do. There are some situations where it's difficult to let go of this attitude (distinguishing between what people mean and what they don't mean...basically what notsweetynice alluded to), but in my casual interactions I'm going to have to say I agree with the ExTPs who've chimed in.

I really really wish that all NFs would realize this!

A lot of the time I don't hang out with strong feelers because it's exhausting to have to tiptoe through the minefield and to FORCE myself to think "will this be construed as offensive?" before speaking when I'm not even used to thinking before speaking!

I mean, I try, but too much time with someone who's super touchy will always leave me running off to hide and calling my ESTJ best friend to bitch (she does the same to me)

My sis and I had this argument over the holidays- she got mad at me for some comment that I'd made because she misconstued it and took it personally- she yelled at me and I didn't even realize I'd done anything wrong!

Thanks, protean.

I think that it's way too much effort to get offended and take things too personally. I always ask myself- what is the purpose? What will this accomplish? Nothing. Having too many emotions NEVER accomplishes anything or makes anything better. It makes things WORSE. So if you KNOW that someone is bad with people's inner feelings and they don't intend to offend you, what's the purpose of getting all emotional over it? You're just going to confuse the hell out of someone and make things more complicated for both people.

This is all apart of balance and personal growth imo.

 

[proteanmix]

I really really wish that all NFs would realize this!

A lot of the time I don't hang out with strong feelers because it's exhausting to have to tiptoe through the minefield and to FORCE myself to think "will this be construed as offensive?" before speaking when I'm not even used to thinking before speaking!

I mean, I try, but too much time with someone who's super touchy will always leave me running off to hide and calling my ESTJ best friend to bitch (she does the same to me)

My sis and I had this argument over the holidays- she got mad at me for some comment that I'd made because she misconstued it and took it personally- she yelled at me and I didn't even realize I'd done anything wrong!

I have an INTP brother and an ISTP sister. My feelings were burnt to a crisp by 18.

 

[neptunesnet]

Heh, I'm probably one of those people you're talking about. We don't think we're being rude, we think you're being overly sensitive. We don't say "sorry if that came across as insensitive" because we don't think we were being insensitive. Kind of impossible to apologize if you're not aware that you need to.

You know it's really as simple as "if you don't consider our feelings, we won't consider your thoughts." I was trying desperately to explain this to an TP on this forum, but he didn't really get it.



*Yes, I did a no-no. I haven't read the entire thread.

 

[BlackCat]

You know it's really as simple as "if you don't consider our feelings, we won't consider your thoughts." I was trying desperately to explain this to a TP on this forum, but he didn't really get it.



*Yes, I did a no-no. I haven't read the entire thread.

Well Pettycure also went to say that she has a good bit of common courtesy... that's considerate enough right? It's not as if they are TRYING not to consider your feelings...

Most __TPs need some sort of Fe like display to do Fi. "So they reacted this way, maybe I should/shouldn't do that again." Even if they way you react is subtle, like changing the subject or getting defensive etc. That's usually enough of an Fe signal for an E_TP. I personally try to indirectly let people know not to do a certain thing again if it really irks me.

 

[neptunesnet]

Well Pettycure also went to say that she has a good bit of common courtesy... that's considerate enough right? It's not as if they are TRYING not to consider your feelings...

I was speaking generally and from my own experience. I just quoted that part of her post because I'd heard that expressed from several other TPs that I know irl who aren't considerate. It didn't have much to do with Pettycure - I apologize that wasn't clear.

Additionally, it does become daunting when we feel we've been offended - whether or not the person meant to - and he doesn't think that he has and insists he hasn't offended you because he doesn't see what's offensive about what he said/did, which is what I was hinting at (again, not directed at Pettycure).

Most __TPs need some sort of Fe like display to do Fi. "So they reacted this way, maybe I should/shouldn't do that again." Even if they way you react is subtle, like changing the subject or getting defensive etc. That's usually enough of an Fe signal for an E_TP. I personally try to indirectly let people know not to do a certain thing again if it really irks me.

In the past I wouldn't tell people when they'd offended me. I'd just keep it moving and make a note to stop communicating on a personal level with that person, which wasn't exactly fair to him/her. Now I've become much more direct about it. For the most part, they still don't care, and I'm still being called overly sensitive.

My point: I don't really understand why Feelers have to be the only ones to adjust here.

 

[OrangeAppled]

My point: I don't really understand why Feelers have to be the only ones to adjust here.

This is what annoys me also. It's like, "suck it up and deal with it because that's the way I am". Why no adjustment on their end? It works both ways.

 

[BlackCat]

This is what annoys me also. It's like, "suck it up and deal with it because that's the way I am". Why no adjustment on their end? It works both ways.

I don't honestly think I've had this happen to me... usually in my interactions with Ts we adjust both ways. I can't really think of any instance where that hasn't happened with one of them who I liked.

 

[Virtual ghost]

I suck at this to be honest.

The main reason why I can hurt a person is because I will not give emotional support when needed. Instead I will try to create a plan to help the person. What usually end with a mess.
I can't even remember how many times I have made this mistake.


Also there wasn't a ExFJ that knows me that wasn't scared at least a little bit by my deficit of Fe and how blunt I can be with people.


However just like Whatever I don't have intentions to harm people it is just I try to help people on different way than most. Also becuse of Ni I can give them multiple perspective of the problem what people often take as criticism or disrespect, especially since I don't get too excited in the process.

 

[OrangeAppled]

I suck at this to be honest.

The main reason why I can hurt a person is because I will not give emotional support when needed. Instead I will try to create a plan to help the person. What usually end with a mess.
I can't even remember how many times I have made this mistake.

Everyone is guilty of this. The main difference may be the manner in giving unwanted advice, but I can't think of anyone who has not made this error (myself included). Think of how much easier it is to just listen, and you actually get more credit for being a good friend, muwhahaha

However just like Whatever I don't have intentions to harm people it is just I try to help people on different way than most. Also becuse of Ni I can give them multiple perspective of the problem what people often take as criticism or disrespect, especially since I don't get too excited in the process.

This can be really helpful actually, if you just let the person steam a bit, don't criticize their feelings, and explore with questions before assuming you know what they need. I know for me, I often need a unique perspective, not trite & oversimple advice.

 

[Virtual ghost]

Everyone is guilty of this. The main difference may be the manner in giving unwanted advice, but I can't think of anyone who has not made this error (myself included). Think of how much easier it is to just listen, and you actually get more credit for being a good friend, muwhahaha



This can be really helpful actually, if you just let the person steam a bit, don't criticize their feelings, and explore with questions before assuming you know what they need. I know for me, I often need a unique perspective, not trite & oversimple advice.

1. I know, it is just that I think that I do this more often than most people. The problem is that as a strong NTJ I automaticly go to problem solving mode unless the person is completely in tears or obviously hurt.


2. Well I just have the problem with sounding like I really care. What can be a real trust braker sometimes. (even if I do care)
I mean I have a really low Fe so I have a problem with showing emotions to others. Even if Fi is activated.

 

[kyuuei]

^ Antisocial, I can relate a lot with what you are saying.. It's hard to see a situation, and a solution, and not try to urge someone that way as the way of giving support. "I am supporting.. Look at this plan I've come up with for you!" It's very easy to get tunnel-vision with this classic. Even if it is someone you're emotionally attached to, it hurts to watch someone suffer and KNOW that there is a way to avoid it if they would just DO it already!!!!

... But the flip side of that is no one likes to be told what to do. People want to handle things THEIR way, the way that makes them the most comfortable. Which is why this sort of "support" always ends up being less than.


I will mention that, on the flip side of the "NFs are draining" thing.. sometimes people judge me too quickly, or disregard me based on my emotional content.. something I don't think should be invalidated. A lot of times, it is like walking on eggshells especially with non-emotional people.

To give an example, a lot of times I have to "submit" to a conversation type, or avoid something altogether, because there's a sense of power struggle at play. Someone who prides themselves on logics don't like their logics to be challenged, and so I'm stuck being the humble, humility-oriented person all the time.. because either way it turns out bad for me. If I'm silent, yes I'm always a bit resentful that they're so stubborn they can't see they're hurting me.. but the only other way it ever goes is if I'm stubborn on it as well, which leads to arguing, which only leads to an "emotional outburst" that drives them further away.

Just trying to show another perspective to the draining aspect. It always goes both ways.