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[NF] Not being NF is not enough of an excuse

SilkRoad

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I just don't get how oblivious a lot of people seem to be to the feelings of others. How can you say/do certain types of things and not understand, or suspect, that you're hurting the other person? I know NFs are supposed to be hyper-sensitive to this kind of thing and we're supposed to have a natural advantage...but I don't know that this is even all that type-related. If you have that big of a blind spot to other people's feelings or the types of things that are likely to hurt, you've got a problem - most likely that you just don't care that much about anyone's feelings except your own. Apparently even saying "sorry if that came across as insensitive" is too damn hard for so many people.

Hm, I'm not having a good week... :huh:
 

AphroditeGoneAwry

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I just don't get how oblivious a lot of people seem to be to the feelings of others. How can you say/do certain types of things and not understand, or suspect, that you're hurting the other person? I know NFs are supposed to be hyper-sensitive to this kind of thing and we're supposed to have a natural advantage...but I don't know that this is even all that type-related. If you have that big of a blind spot to other people's feelings or the types of things that are likely to hurt, you've got a problem - most likely that you just don't care that much about anyone's feelings except your own. Apparently even saying "sorry if that came across as insensitive" is too damn hard for so many people.

Hm, I'm not having a good week... :huh:

I love it when 'they' can nitpick your every sentence in a rude manner, but when you call them out on feelings, or being rude, they say, "Oh, NF, stop Projecting your feelings on to me!"

There are some salvagable types, even NTs. :devil: I think it's also a problem on here because there are, I believe, a large number of younger members; i.e. not enough time to develop some Fe, especially if they've not had much accountability in their families growing up.

Sorry about your week. Hope it gets better!
 

Domino

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You need a tazer. A big pink tazer with a smiley face on it that squirts perfume and marshmellows shaped like kittens. Then, people might listen.
 

Sinmara

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Heh, I'm probably one of those people you're talking about. We don't think we're being rude, we think you're being overly sensitive. We don't say "sorry if that came across as insensitive" because we don't think we were being insensitive. Kind of impossible to apologize if you're not aware that you need to.

This will probably sound callous to you, but I'm not interested in the feelings of strangers or acquaintances. I say what I'm going to say and just because it upsets you doesn't mean that you didn't need to hear it. The only feelings I'm interested in are that of the people in my inner circle because they've proven that they're worth the stress it puts on me. I don't see why I should put forth the effort of trying to care about absolutely everybody because dealing with the feelings of other people can be incredibly draining for me and can leave me feeling empty if I've given too much. And yes, this extends even to what you might consider common courtesy. If I had to stop and analyze my actions and look at it from the perspective of every single person I encounter on a given day, I'd be exhausted.

Speaking solely for xSTPs, we can be a bit emotionally retarded at times -- yes, it is a type thing for us. The best way to deal with us is to point out what we've done and why it affected you badly in a blunt and rational way. If you fire back with an emotional response, we're likely to slap the "drama queen" label on you and not think of what you say. If we don't know we're being too crass or harsh, we won't know that we need to apologize.

I don't know what upset you specifically, but that's how to deal with the xSTPs when we do it to you.
 

CuriousFeeling

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You just got to take everything in stride. I pretty much anticipate people not to show the warm and fuzzy attitude (it goes with being from NY). Think of whose opinion is important... your close friends and family. :)
 

Bri

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And yes, this extends even to what you might consider common courtesy. If I had to stop and analyze my actions and look at it from the perspective of every single person I encounter on a given day, I'd be exhausted.

Sooo... why exactly can't you adapt a sort of universal 'polite' behavior for dealing with people you do not know personally? Why would you need to analyze everyone individually? I'm not talking about your friends or coworkers, they can be exhausting (however, the pay-off for treating them well is good), but treating the random cashier at your grocery store with civility shouldn't be too hard...
 

Thalassa

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I hope your week gets better. It's easy to be overly sensitive to some of the stuff said here when things are going wrong IRL. At those times it's often best to avoid heavy debates or places where you know from experience people are likely to get nasty.

Being insensitive is not the same thing as being cruel, though. Most people - including NFs - are oblivious or insensitive in various situations. The F who complains about how rude people are on the Internet is equally as likely to act like a self-righteous boor to a sales person IRL. I don't fall for people's self-congratulatory bullshit, anymore, including my own - and that's only come with age and life experience.

Just like young NTs can be incredibly rude, young NFs can delude themselves into actually believing they're "nicer" than other people. I'm not saying you're doing that, I'm just blabbering at this point.

What I'm actually trying to say is that people misunderstand each other's communication styles all of the time, and only rarely is it intentional cruelty.

:hug:
 

Sinmara

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Sooo... why exactly can't you adapt a sort of universal 'polite' behavior for dealing with people you do not know personally? Why would you need to analyze everyone individually? I'm not talking about your friends or coworkers, they can be exhausting (however, the pay-off for treating them well is good), but treating the random cashier at your grocery store with civility shouldn't be too hard...

Oh, I treat everyone civilly. We're generally a polite breed and we understand that good manners get you everywhere. But if you're dealing with us more extensively, our bluntness is likeky to shine through and we can sometimes step on toes if we're not very self-aware of our words.
 

Halla74

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If I am in a full-on task oriented mode, the only feelings I am concerned about are those that if realized would result in a misdemeanor or felony. :huh:

Other than that I am really nice. :cheese:
 

OrangeAppled

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I say what I'm going to say and just because it upsets you doesn't mean that you didn't need to hear it.

What's the point of saying something if it is ineffective though? Unless your point is to hurt someone's feelings, then why not use more diplomatic wording? That may be more effective, as it does not put the listener on the defense and make them as inclined to disregard what you're saying. What I've noticed when being too blunt (myself included) is that it creates a new problem that never needed to be, one which distracts from the real issue, and it could have been avoided with a little delicacy.
 

Bri

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Oh, I treat everyone civilly. We're generally a polite breed and we understand that good manners get you everywhere. But if you're dealing with us more extensively, our bluntness is likeky to shine through and we can sometimes step on toes if we're not very self-aware of our words.
Thanks for the clarification. :) I have the same problem, heh.
 

Moiety

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Oh, I treat everyone civilly. We're generally a polite breed and we understand that good manners get you everywhere. But if you're dealing with us more extensively, our bluntness is likeky to shine through and we can sometimes step on toes if we're not very self-aware of our words.

Don't confuse bluntness, with not caring for other people's feelings.

The only feelings I'm interested in are that of the people in my inner circle because they've proven that they're worth the stress it puts on me. I don't see why I should put forth the effort of trying to care about absolutely everybody because dealing with the feelings of other people can be incredibly draining for me and can leave me feeling empty if I've given too much.

That's being emotionally lazy. You can be blunt and still care about how your actions impact someone other than yourself. You can't fake caring, of course, but just wanted to stress that out because I think people confuse bluntness with T.
 

Thalassa

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I should also mention that I'm an NF myself and I lived in Las Vegas for six years, and when I returned to West Virginia various people found my behavior rude, even shocking, because I had grown so acclimated to living in a different, "harsher" culture.

Cultural context is a big deal when it comes to personal interaction - and while culture is obviously a factor from country to country, even city to city, what is considered shocking speech in one family is every day behavior to another.
 

Sinmara

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What's the point of saying something if it is ineffective though? Unless your point is to hurt someone's feelings, then why not use more diplomatic wording? That may be more effective, as it does not put the listener on the defense and make them as inclined to disregard what you're saying. What I've noticed when being too blunt (myself included) is that it creates a new problem that never needed to be, one which distracts from the real issue, and it could have been avoided with a little delicacy.

Sometimes, you need to use words to shock people so it gets them out of their comfort zone. Sometimes, you need to hurt their feelings just to make them understand the severity of your words. Sometimes, the truth is not what you want to hear and it hurts.

This isn't something I would reccommend doing very often because you're right, being diplomatic is often the better road to take and will get you better results -- in a normal, civil situation, that works best. But sometimes, in certain extreme situations when the person is otherwise not listening, a verbal stab in the gut is the most effective way to get your point across.

I'm not out to hurt a person's feelings. Having a bunch of people around who don't like you just makes your life more difficult. But if I see that a person needs to hear something, I'm not going to pull my punches just because it'll upset them. They'll get over it.

Think of the tough love as a sign that I really care about you because I wouldn't bother doing it to someone who didn't mean something to me. If I didn't like you, I'd just ignore you. :D
 

Thalassa

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Sometimes, you need to use words to shock people so it gets them out of their comfort zone. Sometimes, you need to hurt their feelings just to make them understand the severity of your words. Sometimes, the truth is not what you want to hear and it hurts.

THIS

Also - maybe because I have Fi instead of Fe - I feel that some people are too sheltered and shockable for their own good and should be exposed to how the world really is instead of believing it's all upper-middle class PC whiteness (for example, not trying to be classist or racist....just giving a particular description of a certain "comfort zone")

So, really, this isn't just an T thing.
 

Lux

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Sometimes, you need to use words to shock people so it gets them out of their comfort zone. Sometimes, you need to hurt their feelings just to make them understand the severity of your words. Sometimes, the truth is not what you want to hear and it hurts.

But all of this could be done with a kinder edge, and it would probably have more of an effect. Sometimes purring rather than roaring gets results.

This isn't something I would reccommend doing very often because you're right, being diplomatic is often the better road to take and will get you better results -- in a normal, civil situation, that works best. But sometimes, in certain extreme situations when the person is otherwise not listening, a verbal stab in the gut is the most effective way to get your point across.

Or the opposite effect. That tactic wouldn't work on me, but I'm sure it works on some people.
 

Sinmara

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Don't confuse bluntness, with not caring for other people's feelings.

Don't confuse what I said. I'm blunt and I don't care about the feelings of people I don't personally know. I type the words out and press "Submit Reply" because I mean them. ;P

That's being emotionally lazy. You can be blunt and still care about how your actions impact someone other than yourself. You can't fake caring, of course, but just wanted to stress that out because I think people confuse bluntness with T.

Once again, skewing my words. It's not being emotionally lazy. Lazy would suggest that I can do it but I just won't. I meant it when I said that it stresses me and makes me exhausted to try to identify with every person I meet. I don't have enough give-a-shit to go around. I'm generally polite and I treat the people I encounter on a day to day basis with courtesy and respect (unless they give me a reason to not), but if one of them throws a hissy fit at me for some percieved wrong that I may or may not have done, I'm not really going to give a damn because they're just some person I'm never going to see again.
 

Sinmara

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But all of this could be done with a kinder edge, and it would probably have more of an effect. Sometimes purring rather than roaring gets results.

It's more of a last resort thing. When you've spent all your time purring and it doesn't get through to the person, it's time to roar. ;)

I'm likely to use the kinder edge tactic first. I like being nice and polite. It builds up to the roar as the person continues to not listen. They can't say I didn't warn them.
 

Moiety

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Don't confuse what I said. I'm blunt and I don't care about other peoples feelings. I type the words out and press "Submit Reply" because I mean them. ;P

Oh shi...!



Pettycure said:
Once again, skewing my words. It's not being emotionally lazy. Lazy would suggest that I can do it but I just won't.

You were describing a process and how it affected you, or at least that's how I interpreted it. You might very well be a curious exception, but I do think everyone can do it to a certain extent. Don't cut yourself so much slack man ;)
 
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