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  1. #71
    morose bourgeoisie
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    I never show emotion around strangers, or anyone I don't know well. I reserve that for family, mostly. To me, it's like explaining your dreams to someone: it bores the listener to sleep.
    So in public I'm fairly emotionally neutral , but this makes me seem arrogant and condescending to all the EST's around this office.
    So it's a catch 22. Show emotion - you're an unreliable whiner, don't show emotion, you think you're too good for us.
    But i don't mind. You can't control what other people think or their level of awareness, so I withdraw and let them think whatever they want in their particular frame of reference.

  2. #72
    Lay the coin on my tongue SilkRoad's Avatar
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    Perhaps we need another thread, or another discussion...if you're an NF and over-sensitive in certain areas, how do you work on not letting other people's mild inconsiderateness/major inconsiderateness/meanness/total assholery not get to you? Or not get to you so much?

    It's weird how laid-back a lot of people consider me. I can be crying and screaming inside and still project a very calm sort of aura, apparently. That can lead me to a state where I have tension and nausea through my whole body - not nice.

    But then, I guess I am genuinely laid back about many things. I kind of wish I could dissipate whatever angry/hurt energy I have by freaking out at more minor things day by day, and then not let the emotional hurt/anger get to me so much and screw me up for weeks and months at a time.
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  3. #73
    Emerging Tallulah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilkRoad View Post
    Perhaps we need another thread, or another discussion...if you're an NF and over-sensitive in certain areas, how do you work on not letting other people's mild inconsiderateness/major inconsiderateness/meanness/total assholery not get to you? Or not get to you so much?

    It's weird how laid-back a lot of people consider me. I can be crying and screaming inside and still project a very calm sort of aura, apparently. That can lead me to a state where I have tension and nausea through my whole body - not nice.

    But then, I guess I am genuinely laid back about many things. I kind of wish I could dissipate whatever angry/hurt energy I have by freaking out at more minor things day by day, and then not let the emotional hurt/anger get to me so much and screw me up for weeks and months at a time.
    Well, I think the first thing is to make a big distinction between the things you listed. Minor inconsiderateness is way different from total assholery. If someone's being a total asshole, why hold it inside? Tell that person where they've stepped over the line (and if it's a T, humor will probably work better than earnest, tearful explanations). Also, it helps to take into consideration whether the person is meaning to be an asshole, or is just clueless. If the person is meaning to be an asshole, I don't feel the need to hang around that person. Period. If the person's clueless, I realize that I don't need to take things personally, and I can sort of steer that person in the right direction or bring it up when I'm not stewing about it.

    For minor instances of being inconsiderate, I'd ask myself my expectations are realistic. Or if I'm expecting something that the other person is totally unaware that I need. For instance, when my niece was a baby, my sister got all worked up and offended that my mom wasn't helping her enough with the baby when she came over. She had this big list of things that in her head, she thought Mom should do to help her out. But Mom thought she was helping (and she was). How was she supposed to know that my sister thought she should be doing something else? In that case, my sister didn't really have the right to be hurt or offended. She hadn't let anyone know how she felt, but she was holding others to this uncommunicated standard inside and becoming resentful. I'd say communication and adaptation/flexibility is the key to surviving minor inconsiderateness.
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  4. #74
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilkRoad View Post
    Perhaps we need another thread, or another discussion...if you're an NF and over-sensitive in certain areas, how do you work on not letting other people's mild inconsiderateness/major inconsiderateness/meanness/total assholery not get to you? Or not get to you so much?

    It's weird how laid-back a lot of people consider me. I can be crying and screaming inside and still project a very calm sort of aura, apparently. That can lead me to a state where I have tension and nausea through my whole body - not nice.

    But then, I guess I am genuinely laid back about many things. I kind of wish I could dissipate whatever angry/hurt energy I have by freaking out at more minor things day by day, and then not let the emotional hurt/anger get to me so much and screw me up for weeks and months at a time.

    I try to remember that most people have a reason for being the way they are. I try to understand why they feel the need to act that way. And then I smile at it. Depending on what that trait is that is annoying me, I'll examine myself to see if it's me being sensitive to it, or if they are in fact out of line. And depending on what I know about them (having a rough day, one time thing vs habit and emotional baggage), I'll act accordingly. If it doesn't particularly affect me or harm anyone else, I'll leave them be. If they do affect me or someone else, I'll treat them in a polite way which shows that that behavior does not have the desired effect and if they're open for it, show them how to go about it. And I'll be consistent in this. It's not because I understand where they are coming from, that I will in fact tolerate their assholery. I will pose boundaries. But without getting mad or frustrated as that is anything but beneficial for me.

    Of course, that's the theory. In practice, I too have moments that I roll my eyes and get pissy. I'll try to withdraw to regain balance on my own as I've learned people are uncomfortable and may act harsly and hurtful when seeing someone emo, so to protect myself from this, I'll take a moment on my own. If not possible, I'll stay in the background and remain neutral in my responses, minimizing them as much as possible. I try not to make (rash) decisions when in this state as it tends to be 50-50 on the outcome.

    Just my two cents.
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  5. #75
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilkRoad View Post
    I just don't get how oblivious a lot of people seem to be to the feelings of others. How can you say/do certain types of things and not understand, or suspect, that you're hurting the other person? I know NFs are supposed to be hyper-sensitive to this kind of thing and we're supposed to have a natural advantage...but I don't know that this is even all that type-related. If you have that big of a blind spot to other people's feelings or the types of things that are likely to hurt, you've got a problem - most likely that you just don't care that much about anyone's feelings except your own. Apparently even saying "sorry if that came across as insensitive" is too damn hard for so many people.

    Hm, I'm not having a good week...
    I'd say a large portion of the time it's less about not noticing and more about not caring. From my perspective, a lot of Fs (but more often FPs) have unreasonable expectations for the world to bend to whatever their personal feelings are on everything, and at some point you have to grow up and accept that there are certain standards for how things operate and sometimes you're just going to have to deal with it.

    It's not practical or possible to appease everyone's feelings on everything all the time.
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  6. #76
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilkRoad View Post
    Perhaps we need another thread, or another discussion...if you're an NF and over-sensitive in certain areas, how do you work on not letting other people's mild inconsiderateness/major inconsiderateness/meanness/total assholery not get to you? Or not get to you so much?
    I think for me, I figure out the persons' intentions. It's typically pretty easy to read a person and tell if they are genuinely trying to bother you, irritate you, piss you off, etc - i.e. total assholery and deliberately pushing buttons.

    But most people, I think, don't have the intent behind things that we might ascribe to them. So for yourself, if you're desiring to be less sensitive, focusing on someones' intent might help.

    Also, just recognizing that while I care about certain things and have certain ways of doing things, the majority of people out there simply don't care about the same things and don't value doing things the way that I do: different priorities.

    And finally....realizing that many people are just totally oblivious/clueless about some of the things you or I might notice right away or do instinctively. So it's not entirely 'inconsiderate'/rude/etc, if they're oblivious to all of it in the first place.
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  7. #77
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    I think of it as recalibrating. Sometimes people can intend the same thing, but use language and non-verbal style differently. Being able to discern the intent of another person can take time and experience. I recently have a couple of great experiences in this regard. I have a couple of associates through work that have mental disabilities. One has Aspbergers and the other Paranoid Schizophrenia. I just met the individual with Aspbergers last week. Almost every thing the person said was jarring and on the surface insulting. I knew previously about the condition and that the person also shuts down externally in response to conflict. For someone to have virtually every thing they say instill conflict by its nature, and to also be unable to deal with conflict must be hell. It is a vivid example of someone who can't help offending. I externally calibrated to the style and they were happy at the end of our meeting, but inside I'll admit it was rather jarring.

    Because in most cases you can't know the extent to which the person was intending harm, I find it safer to err on the side of thinking the best because that approach does little harm itself. In time greater certainty can grow. Occasionally I'll be the one to make the mistake and offend, and so I try to remember that as well.
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  8. #78
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    I disagree that this is all purely subjective: ie. that NFs seem to non-NFs to be oversensitive and non-NFs seem insensitive to NFs, so therefore its all really just a communication problem. Of course, this can be the case at times, where people misinterpret each others words and it causes a few problems. However, there is the difference between a mistake in communication and trying to justify what you should reasonably know to be wrong. And I do think there can often be an objective viewpoint of what is right and wrong in some situations.

    Empathy is the basis of humanity and its not simply one person understanding another. It is identifying with another and their problems as if they were your own. I have seen many ocassions where people laugh at the misfortunes of others and it perplexes me. For example: someone performing at a talent contest who ends up making a fool of themselves. I do not enjoy watching that at all, and have no conception of why anyone else would. Wouldn't a reasonable human being look at that person and think "what if I was her/him?" and feel bad for them or at least refrain from laughing?

    Surely the basis of morality in all cultures is the golden rule: varying forms of "do unto others as you would have them do unto you". But people often misinterpret this and think purely from a selfish perspective. Some may say, "well, I wouldn't be embarrassed if I was that guy on stage, with everyone laughing at me. It wouldn't bother me so its OK for me to laugh". But this is not truly identifying with the person. You may have to be less literal and think of a true equivalent for you. Perhaps, for the guy on the stage, screwing up his act in front of all those people and being laughed at is a extremely embarassing. So to truly put yourself in his place, you must imagine something that is extremely embarrassing for you. This might be something else entirely, like being naked in public. The point is, everyone (barring psychopaths) feels embarrassment, so everyone should identify with another's embarrasment. There is no excuse for intentionally making other people feel bad because you would not like to be made to feel thus - it is unreasonable and irrational to do so.

    I think it is a cop out to say that NFs are just too sensitive (or anyone else accussed of this for that matter) and that they should just get with the program. I think NFs may be more naturally empathetic and intuitively reach their conclusions about how to treat people predominantly through this. This does not diminish their views as purely subjective nonsense because there is also a logic to them. I know non-NFs (such as a INTJ friend) who have remarkably similar moral views as I do but they reach those views as the logical conclusion of the golden rule, rather than basing it on their feelings.

  9. #79
    Lay the coin on my tongue SilkRoad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallulah View Post

    For minor instances of being inconsiderate, I'd ask myself my expectations are realistic. Or if I'm expecting something that the other person is totally unaware that I need. For instance, when my niece was a baby, my sister got all worked up and offended that my mom wasn't helping her enough with the baby when she came over. She had this big list of things that in her head, she thought Mom should do to help her out. But Mom thought she was helping (and she was). How was she supposed to know that my sister thought she should be doing something else? In that case, my sister didn't really have the right to be hurt or offended. She hadn't let anyone know how she felt, but she was holding others to this uncommunicated standard inside and becoming resentful. I'd say communication and adaptation/flexibility is the key to surviving minor inconsiderateness.
    yeah, good points. I know that sometimes not communicating my expectations causes problems for me because people think everything is fine and I'm just being my "normal" laid-back self. Minor inconsiderateness isn't usually a problem for me, anyway, unless maybe I get it over and over and over again from the same person.

    I have a problem communicating my distress/hurt/irritation with people being unpleasant or inconsiderateness because I really have a fear of looking like a nit-picking person and making myself unpleasant to be around. And sometimes I find it hard to distinguish between people being somewhat inconsiderate, and people really being assholes. You'd think I'd have figured it out by now but apparently not. It's partly a bad habit of giving people the benefit of the doubt way too long. Then when I feel they've finally crossed the line, I go to the other extreme and give them no benefit of the doubt at all and conclude they're horrible people.
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  10. #80

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    Hmmmm. This was interesting. I'm surrounded by ENT's. Friends. Family. Friends of Family. God love em. When I hear someone say anything about the "tough love" bit my first reaction is a question. "Do they really think I believe that?" This is how I see it... Foot in mouth disease. I've thought about that though. What would it be like to say something with the intent to help or care and have it come out awkward. I imagine, it's about like how we feel when we show our emotions to someone who really wasn't quite open to them. You know that feeling...It makes you wince on the inside and ask if you really did that. When I started to think about it, I realized, we probably aren't that much different. So with certain types, I attempt to bracket the words off to the side and look at the intent first.

    If the intent seems fair, and I think they are trying to say something from their heart, I ask them... Do you mean [fill in the blank]? To make sure we are on the same page.

    Not everyone who uses the "I'm blunt" card uses it as an excuse to say whatever they want. Some people use it as a type of apologetic warning that they don't really know how to say what they mean. I have seen people who use this as an excuse to be downright abusive with their mouth, but you can tell the difference pretty easily. Those people... they get a whole lot of distance from me.

    Some T's are like dogs with big tails. They really don't know that wagging it like that when they get excited is going to knock the expensive vase off the coffee table.
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