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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilkRoad View Post
    I made a mistake which caused an awkward situation, hassle and embarrassment for an ESxP (think he's ESTP but not sure) friend and although it was a situation where he was partly at fault too, his response when I decided to be honest and let him know what the deal was, was harsh and hurtful. (It was by email, which may have made things worse because I am not sure how he meant to come across. He was away at the time and I wanted to apprise him of the situation before he returned and had to face it. He is away again for a long time so any more discussion of this might have to be by email again.) I had done all I could to acknowledge my own error in the matter, apologised, acknowledged that he might feel betrayed but I hoped he could see the bigger picture...etc. His whole response just made me feel worse and there was no evidence of acceptance of responsibility on his part. When I saw him again, he said "let's forget about it" but also seemed to find it necessary to re-emphasize that he was still annoyed about it. He did say "I apologise" (in a very grudging tone) when I said that I had been upset by his reaction, but then added "I don't see what there was in my reaction to upset you." He obviously didn't want to talk about it further, though.
    I'm not sure he's an ESTP. Could be ESFP - they can be very, very touchy just like NFs can, and they can strike to kill when that happens.

    Some people are just mean when they're hurt. It's because they're hurt or angry. Just let him get over it.

  2. #62
    Not Your Therapist Sinmara's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilkRoad View Post
    I made a mistake which caused an awkward situation, hassle and embarrassment for an ESxP (think he's ESTP but not sure) friend and although it was a situation where he was partly at fault too, his response when I decided to be honest and let him know what the deal was, was harsh and hurtful. (It was by email, which may have made things worse because I am not sure how he meant to come across. He was away at the time and I wanted to apprise him of the situation before he returned and had to face it. He is away again for a long time so any more discussion of this might have to be by email again.) I had done all I could to acknowledge my own error in the matter, apologised, acknowledged that he might feel betrayed but I hoped he could see the bigger picture...etc. His whole response just made me feel worse and there was no evidence of acceptance of responsibility on his part. When I saw him again, he said "let's forget about it" but also seemed to find it necessary to re-emphasize that he was still annoyed about it. He did say "I apologise" (in a very grudging tone) when I said that I had been upset by his reaction, but then added "I don't see what there was in my reaction to upset you." He obviously didn't want to talk about it further, though.

    THe things said by the ESTPs in this thread have been interesting. I guess maybe this person didn't realise how he was coming across, but is this a normal way for an ESTP to react when they're mad? Little or no acceptance of responsibility, even when I have made the effort to acknowledge my own part in the issue and apologise even a bit more than necessary, and harsh words? This doesn't fall into the category of being insensitive to someone you don't really know or care about, because you don't have the energy for it. I think he may have been ashamed of his part in this matter and because of that tried to shift the blame/lash out. I have been reading up about the Enneagram lately and he certainly strikes me as a type 7 and I think that would fit.

    I feel like I should talk to him about it again even just for my own peace of mind, and explain why I was hurt, because he might not realise. But I feel like that might just give him another chance to hurt me again. I don't trust him any more not to do that.
    Hmm...

    I dunno, if you had done something like that to me, I would have appreciated the fact that you owned up to your own error and apologized, and I would done so in kind because I respect a person who gets up the courage to make themselves vulnerable by putting their feelings or pride on the line. I often find it difficult to admit (to other people) when I'm wrong, so I admire a person who does the right thing.

    Marmalade is right in that ESFPs can be touchy. They can have all the bluntness and tact (in that they have none) of an ESTP, but the big difference I've personally seen is that while an ESTP might respect and even enjoy the fact that you've hurled what they've thrown right back at them, the ESFP often can't take what they dish and will have a big emotional response to what was said. It's like, "I can treat you this way but you can't treat me the way I treat you." I know an ESFP like this. Very frustrating.

    The only reason I think an ESTP would react the way you've described is if he thought you were clearly in the wrong somehow and did not accept your apology (in my opinion, there are some things you can't mend with an apology, but those are rather extreme cases), or he is on the immature side or took what you said as a blow to his pride. ESTPs can have anger issues and blameshift when we don't want to admit fault. If you track an event back far enough it'll always be someone else's fault. You might've taken a shot at his ego or something. I can't say without knowing what you wrote to him.

    Writing back to explain why he hurt you might be a good idea. Playing to his sense of fairness (or cause and effect: I did action A, you did action B and C, this is why your actions hurt me) might get him to undestand what a jackass he was. But, if he's not willing to admit that he was wrong, it'll just be wasted effort on your part.

    Just as an added note, saying that I don't want to talk about it is something I do when I'm embarrassed or feeling some other sort of raw emotion and it's how I keep a lid on my feelings. We don't like people to see what's going on inside and talking about it risks exposure if we don't think we can keep our feelings in check. Feeling vulnerable and exposed is the worst feeling in the world.

  3. #63
    Vulnerability Eilonwy's Avatar
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    I've been reading "Was That Really Me? How everyday Stress Brings Out Our Hidden Personality" by Naomi L. Quenk and I came across this passage which I thought was relevant to this thread, even though it's mainly talking about ESTJs and ENTJs (bolding is mine):


    When Feeling types talk about things they care about (their Feeling values), an expression of emotion may accompany their expression of the values involved. For Introverted Feeling types, the emotion may be somewhat muted, but it is still a way of emphasizing the importance of whatever is being discussed. Extraverted Thinking types may not differentiate between Feeling as a judging process and a Feeling type's use of emotion. They may confuse using Feeling for rational decision making with sentimentality and emotionality. This occurs because they experience their own Introverted Feeling as sentimental and emotional—as inferior Introverted Feeling. Being in the presence of Feeling values and emotion brings ESTJs and ENTJs uncomfortably close to their own unconscious Feeling and can disrupt or hamper their ability to be effective as themselves, i.e., as Extraverted Thinking types.

    When experiencing the all-or-none quality of a largely unconscious process, ESTJs and ENTJs may express seemingly excessive emotion in response to sad movies or true stories about pain and suffering. "I get all choked up by those really sentimental greeting cards," said one ENTJ, "and it feels out of control, overly sentimental, and illogical. I want sad stories to have a happy ending, even if it isn't true to life."

    Extraverted Thinking types may see Feeling types as overly sensitive to criticism and as needing frequent reassurance. They may be dubious about the effectiveness of these people, fearing that their judgment may be faulty or that their emotions will inappropriately influence their decisions—again confusing rational Feeling judgment with emotion. Since Extraverted Thinking types distrust their own judgment when emotion rules them, they assume the same unreliability is true for dominant Feeling types.

    ESTJs and ENTJs report being quite uncomfortable with their own and others' Feeling judgment. "It seems mushy and chaotic and scary, not crisp and precise like thinking," said one ENTJ. An ESTJ described her uneasiness about expressing appreciation or complimenting others verbally: "I never know how much is appropriate. It always feels gushy." She found writing thank you notes to be much more satisfying both personally and to the recipients, who recognized the genuine depth of her feelings.

    Because their opposites, Introverted Feeling types, are so hard to "read" Extraverted Thinking types may judge Extraverted Feeling types, who readily express their dominant Feeling, more harshly than they do Introverted Feeling types. Introverted Feeling types are more muted in their expression of Feeling. ESTJs and ENTJs tend to see people who readily express Feeling as excessive, phony, and manipulative. When they are around an Introverted Feeling type, they may feel off-balance, needing to "walk on eggshells" and afraid of being misunderstood or of unintentionally offending the person. But more often they may ignore Introverted Feeling types because they don't express themselves directly. As we will see, the sensitivities of Extraverted Thinking types toward both of the dominant Feeling types (Extraverted Feeling types and Introverted Feeling types) are reflected in the expression of their own inferior Feeling.
    We are all such complicated beings. Understanding each other is difficult when we can barely understand ourselves. On top of it all, we're human and we make mistakes. When I take the time to think about it, it's amazing that any of us can communicate effectively at all; what with selective hearing, different perceptions, different ways of processing information, cultural influence, etc.

    Like others have stated, sometimes I feel like it's always on me to be the one to change or be reasonable. It especially irks me when I get justifiably angry and then am told that I'm just moody. If I wasn't so slow on my feet, I would say the same thing back when that person got angry, but it probably wouldn't have the same effect. And I would feel guilty.

    That said, I really appreciate the input from everyone, especially the non-NF posters. Many people on TC have put a lot of thought into understanding themselves and others. I feel like such a child since I've just started learning most of this. I'm working on being more realistic in how I deal with people without losing those parts of my temperament that I value, and discussions like this one are very helpful and eye-opening. To that end, I've started realizing that some of my expectations of others are unrealistic. Even I can't live up to some of my "standards". So, if I'm thinking "wow, that person could sure be more thoughtful" I might realize that there are times, for whatever reason, that I'm not so thoughtful. As long as it's not malicious, I'm trying to (like has been said already) realize it's not so much about me and chill. It's recently gotten through my thick skull that most people don't care (in an intense NF manner ) what's going on with me. They have their own lives and worries and issues. And I'm trying to be more discerning about who is worth the trouble and who isn't.



    (I hope I haven't missed the point, as I have a tendency to do that.)
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  4. #64
    Emerging Tallulah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by toonia View Post
    In the end it would seem that accurate empathy would make a person less sensitive because it makes them more aware of the actual perspective of the other person. I have maintained a connection with one of my mentors who is exceptionally direct and offends a great many people, but I can see clearly how different her intent is from the way people keep interpreting her. She is mystified by "Midwestern politeness" and struggles to understand how these people think. Why do they initially say "no" if they mean "yes"? Why do they not speak up and just say what they mean? Why would they be offended by something that is correct and true? We formed a special connection because she can see I tend towards that same politeness, but also am never offended by her.
    My old theatre professor was similarly baffled by the Southern Fe hospitality game. Sometimes it is hard to see what the rules are, if you haven't grown up around them. Those particular rules have always been second nature to me, which I think contributes to my having high Fe for an INTP.

    Quote Originally Posted by BlackCat View Post
    I don't honestly think I've had this happen to me... usually in my interactions with Ts we adjust both ways. I can't really think of any instance where that hasn't happened with one of them who I liked.
    Absolutely. I, like jeno, am ALWAYS thinking of the feelings of others, but it's filtered through what I think is reasonable. I'll never, ever intentionally hurt your feelings if you're my friend, but there could be miscommunications on either of our parts. If you let me know where I was insensitive (or just say, hey, what was that about?), I'll try and adjust my approach a bit.

    What's hard with feelers, though, is that sometimes they are being affected emotionally by something that has nothing to do with you or the convo you're having, and then the thing you say hurts their feelings when it had more to do with what's going on internally with them. That's when a thinker feels he/she is in a no-win situation. And we're sorry you're hurt, but we feel weird about apologizing when we meant absolutely no harm.

    I also agree with Pettycure, re: there are some people who like to wallow in bad/negative emotions, and they like the attention but don't want to change. Those people are far too draining to keep as friends. Luckily, usually, they just go on and find a new person or group to drain, adding your rejection to their list of woe-is-me grievances.
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    What's the point of saying something if it is ineffective though? Unless your point is to hurt someone's feelings, then why not use more diplomatic wording? That may be more effective, as it does not put the listener on the defense and make them as inclined to disregard what you're saying. What I've noticed when being too blunt (myself included) is that it creates a new problem that never needed to be, one which distracts from the real issue, and it could have been avoided with a little delicacy.

  6. #66
    half mystic, half skeksis jenocyde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    What's the point of saying something if it is ineffective though? Unless your point is to hurt someone's feelings, then why not use more diplomatic wording? That may be more effective, as it does not put the listener on the defense and make them as inclined to disregard what you're saying. What I've noticed when being too blunt (myself included) is that it creates a new problem that never needed to be, one which distracts from the real issue, and it could have been avoided with a little delicacy.
    See, I feel the opposite way. Diplomatic wording often confuses me as to what is being said. I just want to hear it straight. I get very resentful if I think someone is coddling me - that shows a lack of respect to me as your equal.

    Different strokes...

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallulah View Post
    My old theatre professor was similarly baffled by the Southern Fe hospitality game. Sometimes it is hard to see what the rules are, if you haven't grown up around them. Those particular rules have always been second nature to me, which I think contributes to my having high Fe for an INTP.
    I wonder if this is what going on with me too as I moved to the south at age 15 and observed, then adapted to the social skills of my peers. I also knew as a female that I had to adapt because I had been previously shunned and ostracized because of my lack of F-sense. I now appreciate social niceties and see them as a great tool in dealing with people....There's always that moment when I 'test' the waters and drop some of the politeness to see if I can be real with people...This is when people either reject me or become a very close friend.



    Absolutely. I, like jeno, am ALWAYS thinking of the feelings of others, but it's filtered through what I think is reasonable. I'll never, ever intentionally hurt your feelings if you're my friend, but there could be miscommunications on either of our parts. If you let me know where I was insensitive (or just say, hey, what was that about?), I'll try and adjust my approach a bit.
    I actually never try to hurt others feelings even if somebody isn't my friend. I'm just not that aggressive, but I do like good conversations about different opinions and F females get really weird if they disagree. They won't say anything, just become silent and mad, and then they avoid. Then I end up kicking myself for trying to have a 'real' conversation and wish I had just stuck to politeness and bland opinions.

    What's hard with feelers, though, is that sometimes they are being affected emotionally by something that has nothing to do with you or the convo you're having, and then the thing you say hurts their feelings when it had more to do with what's going on internally with them. That's when a thinker feels he/she is in a no-win situation. And we're sorry you're hurt, but we feel weird about apologizing when we meant absolutely no harm.
    YES!! But I don't and refuse to apologize for what I consider their lack of responsibility for their own misdirected emotions. Their feelings are hurt and they make you out to be the bad person without realizing how damaging they're being. Then, if they are hostile enough, my feelings get hurt.

    I also agree with Pettycure, re: there are some people who like to wallow in bad/negative emotions, and they like the attention but don't want to change. Those people are far too draining to keep as friends. Luckily, usually, they just go on and find a new person or group to drain, adding your rejection to their list of woe-is-me grievances.
    I should reject these people too, but usually I keep them around too long until they inevitably get mad and reject me. They seem to take no responsibility for their own behavior and like to blame others for their own problems. I don't know why this isn't obvious to them.

  8. #68
    The King Liason's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilkRoad View Post
    I just don't get how oblivious a lot of people seem to be to the feelings of others. How can you say/do certain types of things and not understand, or suspect, that you're hurting the other person? I know NFs are supposed to be hyper-sensitive to this kind of thing and we're supposed to have a natural advantage...but I don't know that this is even all that type-related. If you have that big of a blind spot to other people's feelings or the types of things that are likely to hurt, you've got a problem - most likely that you just don't care that much about anyone's feelings except your own. Apparently even saying "sorry if that came across as insensitive" is too damn hard for so many people.

    Hm, I'm not having a good week...
    Well, in my personal experience I try to derive what emotion people will get and react as from my actions, as so do try to avoid the inspiration of negative ones. But I'm not the best at it ;] So when I get it wrong, I say sorry and give shoulder pats.
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  9. #69
    Vulnerability Eilonwy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nolla View Post
    Interesting thread. I never thought that the differences between people could be this big. I mean, everyone has empathy, right?
    Unfortunately, no, not everyone has empathy (sociopaths, psychopaths, narcissists, and children with attachment disorders, for example) and those that do don't always have it in the same degree.

    Quote Originally Posted by SilkRoad View Post
    It was a bad week to start with because a friend went through a crisis (ex-boyfriend who she was still totally in love with, killed in a motorcycle crash) and I was stressed and upset on her behalf. Work is a stress at the moment, I am temping and having a hard time finding a permanent job, and I'm temping in two different departments where there is a bit of a conflict with the hours they want me to do and I feel like they're not being very understanding. Actually, scratch that. They're being reasonably understanding but because I'm stressed generally I am being paranoid and feeling that they're all pissed off at me even though it's probably not the case.
    So sorry about this. You're certainly under a LOT of stress. And my heart goes out to your friend.

    Quote Originally Posted by SilkRoad View Post
    I made a mistake which caused an awkward situation, hassle and embarrassment for an ESxP (think he's ESTP but not sure) friend and although it was a situation where he was partly at fault too, his response when I decided to be honest and let him know what the deal was, was harsh and hurtful. (It was by email, which may have made things worse because I am not sure how he meant to come across. He was away at the time and I wanted to apprise him of the situation before he returned and had to face it. He is away again for a long time so any more discussion of this might have to be by email again.) I had done all I could to acknowledge my own error in the matter, apologised, acknowledged that he might feel betrayed but I hoped he could see the bigger picture...etc. His whole response just made me feel worse and there was no evidence of acceptance of responsibility on his part. When I saw him again, he said "let's forget about it" but also seemed to find it necessary to re-emphasize that he was still annoyed about it. He did say "I apologise" (in a very grudging tone) when I said that I had been upset by his reaction, but then added "I don't see what there was in my reaction to upset you." He obviously didn't want to talk about it further, though.
    It sounds like you did all you could. I admire you for owning up and apologizing. That isn't always easy to do. Since the details of what happened are none of my business, what I'm about to suggest may or may not apply. I'm not trying to excuse your friend's behavior in any way, just throwing ideas out there. If the situation was bad enough in your friend's mind, maybe it will just take time for him to get over his feelings and truly accept your apology. We all hope that when we mess up that whoever was effected will accept our sincere apology and that things will go back to the way they were before, but they may need time to rebuild whatever trust they feel was lost. Does that make sense? Or, if he is a T, having to deal with, and possibly show, feelings may be difficult and uncomfortable for him. Also, I notice that I pick up on stuff that other people are oblivious to. Perhaps he doesn't realize that you pick up on the little things that no one else does--or maybe he does realize and THAT makes him uncomfortable--like he's more of an open book than he would like to be? You know him, I don't, so you'll have to figure out what explanation, if any, fits. Then again--he could just be a butthead (kidding!).

    Quote Originally Posted by SilkRoad View Post
    The things said by the ESTPs in this thread have been interesting. I guess maybe this person didn't realise how he was coming across, but is this a normal way for an ESTP to react when they're mad? Little or no acceptance of responsibility, even when I have made the effort to acknowledge my own part in the issue and apologise even a bit more than necessary, and harsh words?
    Personally, I find that a lot of people refuse to accept responsibility for their actions, regardless of type. They rationalize or project or whatever. Somehow it's always someone else's fault.
    Johari / Nohari

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    reminder to self: "That YOU that you are so proud of is a story woven together by your interpreter module to account for as much of your behavior as it can incorporate, and it denies or rationalizes the rest." "Who's in Charge? Free Will and the Science of the Brain" by Michael S. Gazzaniga

  10. #70
    Lay the coin on my tongue SilkRoad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pettycure View Post
    Hmm...

    I dunno, if you had done something like that to me, I would have appreciated the fact that you owned up to your own error and apologized, and I would done so in kind because I respect a person who gets up the courage to make themselves vulnerable by putting their feelings or pride on the line. I often find it difficult to admit (to other people) when I'm wrong, so I admire a person who does the right thing.

    Marmalade is right in that ESFPs can be touchy. They can have all the bluntness and tact (in that they have none) of an ESTP, but the big difference I've personally seen is that while an ESTP might respect and even enjoy the fact that you've hurled what they've thrown right back at them, the ESFP often can't take what they dish and will have a big emotional response to what was said. It's like, "I can treat you this way but you can't treat me the way I treat you." I know an ESFP like this. Very frustrating.

    The only reason I think an ESTP would react the way you've described is if he thought you were clearly in the wrong somehow and did not accept your apology (in my opinion, there are some things you can't mend with an apology, but those are rather extreme cases), or he is on the immature side or took what you said as a blow to his pride. ESTPs can have anger issues and blameshift when we don't want to admit fault. If you track an event back far enough it'll always be someone else's fault. You might've taken a shot at his ego or something. I can't say without knowing what you wrote to him.

    Writing back to explain why he hurt you might be a good idea. Playing to his sense of fairness (or cause and effect: I did action A, you did action B and C, this is why your actions hurt me) might get him to undestand what a jackass he was. But, if he's not willing to admit that he was wrong, it'll just be wasted effort on your part.

    Just as an added note, saying that I don't want to talk about it is something I do when I'm embarrassed or feeling some other sort of raw emotion and it's how I keep a lid on my feelings. We don't like people to see what's going on inside and talking about it risks exposure if we don't think we can keep our feelings in check. Feeling vulnerable and exposed is the worst feeling in the world.
    It’s quite possible that he’s ESFP. I think he might have a close T/F split. He can seem quite T sometimes and quite F other times. Aspects of both ESFP and ESTP fit.

    What you wrote above is enlightening and seems reasonable. He could also very well be an immature ESTP. He is not at all self-aware…I mean, changing your mind and thinking aloud are one thing but he always contradicted himself so much. As far as not being self-aware, I mean things like he would say “wow, it’s ridiculous how much people in this city drink, and the social scene is really shallow” and then he’d be out getting drunk and clubbing most weekends. I got the impression that he felt that if he made comments like that, he could still participate in those scenes, and yet still raise himself above it somehow and maintain a sort of sense of superiority and detachment. He was kidding himself for sure. But I digress.

    This situation certainly shouldn’t have been something unforgivable. It wasn’t life-/career-/reputation-/relationship destroying. It was mainly awkward and embarrassing. It’s a bit too difficult/complicated to explain and I don’t want to get into the details, but basically he was in possession of some knowledge about an incident, which others were entitled to know about…he gossiped about it to me, I gossiped about it to a mutual friend, who then passed it on to the people who needed to know (this kind of thing happens if you have too many mutual friends!!). So…his reaction was rather hypocritical, for starters, because I basically made almost exactly the same mistake he made (gossiping about it.) However, he was the one who had to deal with the fallout, not me, at least to a certain extent. So he made me feel really, really bad about passing on the story though he had passed it to me in the first place.

    It just really hurt because I had made such an effort to acknowledge my own mistake and to be non-accusatory. I was really really careful about that, especially because I didn’t feel I had the right to take the high moral ground. And his reaction made it seem as though my apology, my feelings about the matter, and even the fact that maybe the outcome of the situation was for the best, were worthless. He didn’t even acknowledge those. It also really hurt because as you guys mentioned above, I wasn’t even obliged to own up and tell him how things stood. I could have kept my mouth shut (or not emailed!) and let him deal with the situation on his return, or if he questioned me about it, I could have lied and said the information hadn’t come from me. I wanted to be honest and show trust and respect and he totally disrespected that. His reaction was unbelievably self-centered.

    I don’t know if I’ll contact him or not. It is complicated for me. I had feelings for this guy for a long time and they are still floating around – this made me feel more vulnerable to his unpleasant reaction. It might be better for him to just be out of my life, especially considering he is now away for several months and when he comes back he’s probably only going to be in this city for a short time before he goes back to his home country or on to another adventure (a big theme in his life.) It is actually possible that he has really forgiven me and just moved on (but neither of us have tried to make contact for two months. Maybe we’re both waiting or maybe he doesn’t really care.) I mean, he did say “I apologise” and “let’s forget about it” though it sounded very begrudging (and I felt that his emphasis on how he was still annoyed tended to cancel that out.) He texted me just before he left and said “take care and see you when I’m back,” but I’m not sure we will see each other – either because he won’t be in town for all that long, or he may not want to see me that much, or I may not want to see him. This is a few months off so we’ll see. The question is in large part whether I can put aside my hurt feelings, or to what extent. Even if he has forgiven me I may not have entirely forgiven him.

    Thanks for the good wishes, all. I feel a bit better this week. This thread was mainly just a vent to start with but it has turned out quite interesting

    On the topic of people being ridiculously insensitive, here’s another example to add. The friend I mentioned whose ex died in a motorcycle crash… He was an Arab and she is rather obsessed with guys from that part of the world (both culturally and physically. I don’t get it, but to each their own.) She told me that she’d mentioned to some workmate that she’d been in touch with the ex’s cousin – and the workmate was like “oh, what’s his cousin like? Is he cute? Maybe you could get together with him!” !!!!!!! I guess this is someone who thinks of instant replacement in cases like this. But really, this isn’t even like having a rebound fling when you’ve split up! The guy DIED. And they didn’t split up because they weren’t still in love, though there were some other significant and very valid reasons for splitting. Why would someone think that would make the bereaved person feel better?

    Sorry this is really long, congrats to anyone who reads it!
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    Enneagram 6w5 sp/sx


    I DOORSLAMMING

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