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  1. #91
    The Memes Justify the End EcK's Avatar
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    to be clearer, everybody can have an opinion, so obviously, sometimes it's going to create conflicts. But then it's either that or somehow abolish opinions and the subjectivity that comes with consciousness in a universe ruled by causal laws (and so a speed limit for the transmission of information otherwise you can't differenciate past from future as there's no time/entropy differencials to speak of)
    Expression of the post modern paradox : "For the love of god, religions are so full of shit"

    Theory is always superseded by Fact...
    ... In theory.

    “I’d hate to die twice. It’s so boring.”
    Richard Feynman's last recorded words

    "Great is the human who has not lost his childlike heart."
    Mencius (Meng-Tse), 4th century BCE

  2. #92
    Junior Member lovely empty space's Avatar
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    I don't expect strangers to necessarily care, or acquaintances even, but someone you've been with for years you would maybe expect to be more considerate. That's where I think there's a problem.

  3. #93
    psicobolche tcda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilkRoad View Post
    I just don't get how oblivious a lot of people seem to be to the feelings of others. How can you say/do certain types of things and not understand, or suspect, that you're hurting the other person? I know NFs are supposed to be hyper-sensitive to this kind of thing and we're supposed to have a natural advantage...but I don't know that this is even all that type-related. If you have that big of a blind spot to other people's feelings or the types of things that are likely to hurt, you've got a problem - most likely that you just don't care that much about anyone's feelings except your own. Apparently even saying "sorry if that came across as insensitive" is too damn hard for so many people.

    Hm, I'm not having a good week...
    I'll try and give a reply from my own NT perspective, which undoubtedly doesn't speak for everyone.

    I aim to be a useful member of society capable of influencing others. :Likewise, I respect other people, and don't enjoy having ruined someone's day through unnecessarry rudeness, so generally, I obey social norms and try to get along, becuase I actually respect honest working people.

    However, I am tired out by what I "feel" to be irrational emotionalism. I don't go out of my way to hurt anyone, but if I think you're wrong, I'll just explain to you why, and if you aren't interested in my arguments, then I will give up. Don't get me wrong, if I was better at doing this, then I would be an enhanced, more able version of myself. I strive to be better at it. But, it still tires me.

    My reasoning goes: "we all have feelings and we all have a past, now I'm being reasonable enough to put mine to one side and present things in a reasoned and verifiable way to you relying on evidence visible to both of us, rather than asking you to accept things based on the realms of my own subjectivity which you cannot see. Now if you won't do the same I just find that selfish and annoying."

    Now I should be better at dealing with feelings and many NF's should be better at introspectively exploring the reasons for their feelings about the world and from this, understanding the material, objective reasons for their opinions. In other words, feelings and reason aren't crudely "opposites", but represent different ways of expressing a persons vision of the world -which is complex and multi-layered, and is rooted in our experiences and identity.
    "Of course we spent our money in the good times. That's what you're supposed to do in good times! You can't save money in the good times. Then they wouldn't be good times, they'd be 'preparation for the bad times' times."

    "Every country in the world owes money. Everyone. So heere's what I dont get: who do they all owe it to, and why don't we just kill the bastard and relax?"

    -Tommy Tiernan, Irish comedian.

  4. #94
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tcda View Post
    My reasoning goes: "we all have feelings and we all have a past, now I'm being reasonable enough to put mine to one side and present things in a reasoned and verifiable way to you relying on evidence visible to both of us, rather than asking you to accept things based on the realms of my own subjectivity which you cannot see. Now if you won't do the same I just find that selfish and annoying."
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  5. #95

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    I don't aim for complete objectivity. I don't think that it's possible. Personally, I think if a person does, they miss a crucial part of the equation. Instead, I aim for an intersubjective experience. It transcends the illusion of duality.

    Human behavior flows from three main sources: desire, emotion, and knowledge.-Plato

    Edit:
    "However, I am tired out by what I "feel" to be irrational emotionalism. I don't go out of my way to hurt anyone, but if I think you're wrong, I'll just explain to you why, and if you aren't interested in my arguments, then I will give up. Don't get me wrong, if I was better at doing this, then I would be an enhanced, more able version of myself. I strive to be better at it. But, it still tires me."

    I thought about this... I realized once, when I was thinking about how we push ourselves to grow. I came to an interesting conclusion. I get tired too. Then I looked outside at the flowers and thought, "They rest." It seems simple, but it isn't. Especially for people who love to grow.
    "We ascribe beauty to that which is simple; which has no superfluous parts; which exactly answers its end; which stands related to all things; which is the mean of many extremes." - Ralph Waldo Emerson

  6. #96
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    I think the title of this thread should be "Not being FJ or SJ isn't an Excuse". I am very frank and direct with what I think, and people are always getting offended by my beliefs and opinions. I think it's them who should be sorry for being so damn easy to offend. I mean, I say things in a pretty gentle way and I'm not forceful or unfriendly, but most people are just offended by the very fact that I am unapologetic about my beliefs and have confidence. SJs who are older than me are all like "stop being disrespectful" and I'm like "it's not disrespect, it's confidence. stop telling me what to do". FJs are like "why can't you just go along with everyone else" and I'm like "ah, because I actually have an opinion". I mean, I understand being mad when someone is just being a douche bag, but healthy communication is just not possible if both parties can't here the honest truth.

  7. #97
    Senior Member Mephistopheles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    I think the title of this thread should be "Not being FJ or SJ isn't an Excuse". I am very frank and direct with what I think, and people are always getting offended by my beliefs and opinions. I think it's them who should be sorry for being so damn easy to offend. I mean, I say things in a pretty gentle way and I'm not forceful or unfriendly, but most people are just offended by the very fact that I am unapologetic about my beliefs and have confidence. SJs who are older than me are all like "stop being disrespectful" and I'm like "it's not disrespect, it's confidence. stop telling me what to do". FJs are like "why can't you just go along with everyone else" and I'm like "ah, because I actually have an opinion". I mean, I understand being mad when someone is just being a douche bag, but healthy communication is just not possible if both parties can't here the honest truth.
    What you're describing is more of the typical "let us all get along"-Fe-Dom/Aux-Attitude and the "everything has to stay in the status quo"-Si-Dom/Aux-Attitude and I completely agree with you there.

    But there is also the "But what about my ethic standarts???"-Fi. I have to admit that I clashed often with that together in rl discussions. Not a perfect example, but something like 2-3 weeks ago in my history tuition:
    We were discussing about the assumed rape by Assange. I stated that, by the research I did, it seems quite likely that it's neither a CIA-arrangement nor an actual rape, but rather a personal campagne of that two women against Assange, because Julian is polygamous asshole. I backed it up with some data, like telefonates, how long the supposed victim was with him, known sms, etc.
    Than a girl, obviously emotionally involved, attacked this statement with the argument that she "would never do such a thing" and because of that, she "can't think that these womens would do it either", and so it has to be a CIA-Arrangement. I obviously hurted here personally with my words because I seemingly broke here ethics by supposing such a thing, which is, as far as I know, a Fi-thing, especially combined with Ne, because this intuitive connection between herself and these woman is rather a Ne-thing.

    I were pretty baffled by her reaction because it didn't even came to my mind that I could hurt someone by my statement.

    I don't mean that I see every NFP like that, imho her reaction was quite immature. But it's just an example how Fi CAN also react personally involved to an unpersonally supposed statement - by breaking their ethic codex. And Ne can often make leaps between things where most would never think thate there are links(and too often, there actually AREN'T links anyway).
    They say I only think in form of crunching numbers.....
    -Fall Out Boy

  8. #98
    Senior Member IndyGhost's Avatar
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    i'm an Fi user (not NF, however) and can be blunt and assertive when need be. for the most part, i take others feelings into account and typically use tact... but sometimes i know that won't get the job done. sometimes it's necessary to be bluntly open. and i agree with whoever said it earlier, that this doesn't mean someones feelings aren't being taken into account. but rather that there is a bigger picture here. however, this is all really situational.
    "I don't know a perfect person.
    I only know flawed people who are still worth loving."
    -John Green

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