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[NF] Not being NF is not enough of an excuse

wildcat

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I just don't get how oblivious a lot of people seem to be to the feelings of others. How can you say/do certain types of things and not understand, or suspect, that you're hurting the other person? I know NFs are supposed to be hyper-sensitive to this kind of thing and we're supposed to have a natural advantage...but I don't know that this is even all that type-related. If you have that big of a blind spot to other people's feelings or the types of things that are likely to hurt, you've got a problem - most likely that you just don't care that much about anyone's feelings except your own. Apparently even saying "sorry if that came across as insensitive" is too damn hard for so many people.

Hm, I'm not having a good week... :huh:
People who say do not do.
Only the psychos do.
But they do not say.
 

EcK

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I don't really get how someone s feelings have a special status. If somebody says "thats how things are around here" it can be seen as inconsiderate and so on. But somehow When its about how one feels about a situation its totally alright to have one person judge everybody else to be evil simpletons and obviously lacking the decency of being mind readers or accepting your perspective over theirs. Its hard enough to convince people of things you can reproduce experimentally until the earth freezes over and always get the same result. From a behavioral perspective you do what you do because its rewarding (simplifying here), so its just two sides of the same evolutionarily fine tuned coin. Social animals act as individuals to promote both themselves and the genepool
 

SilkRoad

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I don't really get how someone s feelings have a special status. If somebody says "thats how things are around here" it can be seen as inconsiderate and so on. But somehow When its about how one feels about a situation its totally alright to have one person judge everybody else to be evil simpletons and obviously lacking the decency of being mind readers or accepting your perspective over theirs. Its hard enough to convince people of things you can reproduce experimentally until the earth freezes over and always get the same result. From a behavioral perspective you do what you do because its rewarding (simplifying here), so its just two sides of the same evolutionarily fine tuned coin. Social animals act as individuals to promote both themselves and the genepool

Hm...I think there can be a standard of halfway decent universal behaviour towards everyone. The Golden Rule, for instance. I realise not everyone agrees with this.
 

EcK

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U mean kantian ethics? Its the Core item of my own ethical system. But i dont expect everybody to share my viewpoint or guess it without me expressing it out loud or /and using some good old rethorics at ppl. context and socioeconomically expected behaviors can only do so much
 

SilkRoad

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U mean kantian ethics? Its the Core item of my own ethical system. But i dont expect everybody to share my viewpoint or guess it without me expressing it out loud

This may not be what you're getting at, but I don't think people should get away with every sort of bad or inconsiderate behaviour because it hasn't been spelled out or they had to "guess." This kind of comes back to my initial "I realise not everyone is an intuitive NF (or an NF who thinks they're intuitive!) but that's not really an excuse" thing.

Yes, if you're the type of person who is offended by every last little thing and expect people to always realise that and apologise...you will have problems. But I'm not like that...Well, except maybe a bit during a hyper-sensitive week... :newwink:
 

TheMonocle

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Seek first to understand, then to be understood. That usually solves it.

I admire Kantian philosophy like no tomorrow, but be careful not to confuse absolutes and universal. The kingdom of ends can only function properly under certain conditions. There are people out there who do not own a conscience. These methods don't work with them. Treating them as if they could would be throwing yourself on the sword. Prudence is mandatory for good decisions no matter what system of ethics you subscribe to.
 

SilkRoad

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Prudence is mandatory for good decisions no matter what system of ethics you subscribe to.

Yes...

I think I used to know a tiny bit about Kantian philosophy. Time to look it up again, maybe. Off topic, but I developed a phobia about philosophy after having way too many arguments about it with a rather arrogant NT (I'd guess xNTP) at uni for years. We eventually fell out and didn't speak for years. When we patched things up a few years later, he basically said "I haven't changed my mind about anything we used to argue about, but I would probably try to express myself differently now" ;) which I was perfectly happy to accept. We were both young and argumentative then, I guess he wasn't the only arrogant one, it was just a bit more obvious with him than with me... ;)
 

TheMonocle

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Yes...

I think I used to know a tiny bit about Kantian philosophy. Time to look it up again, maybe. Off topic, but I developed a phobia about philosophy after having way too many arguments about it with a rather arrogant NT (I'd guess xNTP) at uni for years. We eventually fell out and didn't speak for years. When we patched things up a few years later, he basically said "I haven't changed my mind about anything we used to argue about, but I would probably try to express myself differently now" ;) which I was perfectly happy to accept. We were both young and argumentative then, I guess he wasn't the only arrogant one, it was just a bit more obvious with him than with me... ;)

Kant has an amazing mind, but I would follow him up with John Stuart Mill. His "On Liberty" explores how to balance liberty(personal freedom) and authority.(Something bossy Fe can look like)

It is ethical, you do have the right to stop someone from hurting a person. If you asked Kant, he might tell you that it is not only a right, but it's your duty and the only logical course of action. ::Smiles::

Google is calling.
 

sgman

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I don't really get how someone s feelings have a special status. If somebody says "thats how things are around here" it can be seen as inconsiderate and so on. But somehow When its about how one feels about a situation its totally alright to have one person judge everybody else to be evil simpletons and obviously lacking the decency of being mind readers or accepting your perspective over theirs. Its hard enough to convince people of things you can reproduce experimentally until the earth freezes over and always get the same result. From a behavioral perspective you do what you do because its rewarding (simplifying here), so its just two sides of the same evolutionarily fine tuned coin. Social animals act as individuals to promote both themselves and the genepool

Whats not ok about having a personal opinion?
 

EcK

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to be clearer, everybody can have an opinion, so obviously, sometimes it's going to create conflicts. But then it's either that or somehow abolish opinions and the subjectivity that comes with consciousness in a universe ruled by causal laws (and so a speed limit for the transmission of information otherwise you can't differenciate past from future as there's no time/entropy differencials to speak of)
 

lovely empty space

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I don't expect strangers to necessarily care, or acquaintances even, but someone you've been with for years you would maybe expect to be more considerate. That's where I think there's a problem.
 

tcda

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I just don't get how oblivious a lot of people seem to be to the feelings of others. How can you say/do certain types of things and not understand, or suspect, that you're hurting the other person? I know NFs are supposed to be hyper-sensitive to this kind of thing and we're supposed to have a natural advantage...but I don't know that this is even all that type-related. If you have that big of a blind spot to other people's feelings or the types of things that are likely to hurt, you've got a problem - most likely that you just don't care that much about anyone's feelings except your own. Apparently even saying "sorry if that came across as insensitive" is too damn hard for so many people.

Hm, I'm not having a good week... :huh:

I'll try and give a reply from my own NT perspective, which undoubtedly doesn't speak for everyone.

I aim to be a useful member of society capable of influencing others. :Likewise, I respect other people, and don't enjoy having ruined someone's day through unnecessarry rudeness, so generally, I obey social norms and try to get along, becuase I actually respect honest working people.

However, I am tired out by what I "feel" to be irrational emotionalism. I don't go out of my way to hurt anyone, but if I think you're wrong, I'll just explain to you why, and if you aren't interested in my arguments, then I will give up. Don't get me wrong, if I was better at doing this, then I would be an enhanced, more able version of myself. I strive to be better at it. But, it still tires me.

My reasoning goes: "we all have feelings and we all have a past, now I'm being reasonable enough to put mine to one side and present things in a reasoned and verifiable way to you relying on evidence visible to both of us, rather than asking you to accept things based on the realms of my own subjectivity which you cannot see. Now if you won't do the same I just find that selfish and annoying."

Now I should be better at dealing with feelings and many NF's should be better at introspectively exploring the reasons for their feelings about the world and from this, understanding the material, objective reasons for their opinions. In other words, feelings and reason aren't crudely "opposites", but represent different ways of expressing a persons vision of the world -which is complex and multi-layered, and is rooted in our experiences and identity.
 

simulatedworld

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My reasoning goes: "we all have feelings and we all have a past, now I'm being reasonable enough to put mine to one side and present things in a reasoned and verifiable way to you relying on evidence visible to both of us, rather than asking you to accept things based on the realms of my own subjectivity which you cannot see. Now if you won't do the same I just find that selfish and annoying."

:nice:
 

TheMonocle

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I don't aim for complete objectivity. I don't think that it's possible. Personally, I think if a person does, they miss a crucial part of the equation. Instead, I aim for an intersubjective experience. It transcends the illusion of duality.

“Human behavior flows from three main sources: desire, emotion, and knowledge.”-Plato

Edit:
"However, I am tired out by what I "feel" to be irrational emotionalism. I don't go out of my way to hurt anyone, but if I think you're wrong, I'll just explain to you why, and if you aren't interested in my arguments, then I will give up. Don't get me wrong, if I was better at doing this, then I would be an enhanced, more able version of myself. I strive to be better at it. But, it still tires me."

I thought about this... I realized once, when I was thinking about how we push ourselves to grow. I came to an interesting conclusion. I get tired too. Then I looked outside at the flowers and thought, "They rest." It seems simple, but it isn't. Especially for people who love to grow.
 

Elfboy

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I think the title of this thread should be "Not being FJ or SJ isn't an Excuse". I am very frank and direct with what I think, and people are always getting offended by my beliefs and opinions. I think it's them who should be sorry for being so damn easy to offend. I mean, I say things in a pretty gentle way and I'm not forceful or unfriendly, but most people are just offended by the very fact that I am unapologetic about my beliefs and have confidence. SJs who are older than me are all like "stop being disrespectful" and I'm like "it's not disrespect, it's confidence. stop telling me what to do". FJs are like "why can't you just go along with everyone else" and I'm like "ah, because I actually have an opinion". I mean, I understand being mad when someone is just being a douche bag, but healthy communication is just not possible if both parties can't here the honest truth.
 

Mephistopheles

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I think the title of this thread should be "Not being FJ or SJ isn't an Excuse". I am very frank and direct with what I think, and people are always getting offended by my beliefs and opinions. I think it's them who should be sorry for being so damn easy to offend. I mean, I say things in a pretty gentle way and I'm not forceful or unfriendly, but most people are just offended by the very fact that I am unapologetic about my beliefs and have confidence. SJs who are older than me are all like "stop being disrespectful" and I'm like "it's not disrespect, it's confidence. stop telling me what to do". FJs are like "why can't you just go along with everyone else" and I'm like "ah, because I actually have an opinion". I mean, I understand being mad when someone is just being a douche bag, but healthy communication is just not possible if both parties can't here the honest truth.

What you're describing is more of the typical "let us all get along"-Fe-Dom/Aux-Attitude and the "everything has to stay in the status quo"-Si-Dom/Aux-Attitude and I completely agree with you there.

But there is also the "But what about my ethic standarts???"-Fi. I have to admit that I clashed often with that together in rl discussions. Not a perfect example, but something like 2-3 weeks ago in my history tuition:
We were discussing about the assumed rape by Assange. I stated that, by the research I did, it seems quite likely that it's neither a CIA-arrangement nor an actual rape, but rather a personal campagne of that two women against Assange, because Julian is polygamous asshole. I backed it up with some data, like telefonates, how long the supposed victim was with him, known sms, etc.
Than a girl, obviously emotionally involved, attacked this statement with the argument that she "would never do such a thing" and because of that, she "can't think that these womens would do it either", and so it has to be a CIA-Arrangement. I obviously hurted here personally with my words because I seemingly broke here ethics by supposing such a thing, which is, as far as I know, a Fi-thing, especially combined with Ne, because this intuitive connection between herself and these woman is rather a Ne-thing.

I were pretty baffled by her reaction because it didn't even came to my mind that I could hurt someone by my statement.

I don't mean that I see every NFP like that, imho her reaction was quite immature. But it's just an example how Fi CAN also react personally involved to an unpersonally supposed statement - by breaking their ethic codex. And Ne can often make leaps between things where most would never think thate there are links(and too often, there actually AREN'T links anyway).
 

Sunny Ghost

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i'm an Fi user (not NF, however) and can be blunt and assertive when need be. for the most part, i take others feelings into account and typically use tact... but sometimes i know that won't get the job done. sometimes it's necessary to be bluntly open. and i agree with whoever said it earlier, that this doesn't mean someones feelings aren't being taken into account. but rather that there is a bigger picture here. however, this is all really situational.
 
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