User Tag List

First 23456 Last

Results 31 to 40 of 61

  1. #31
    RETIRED CzeCze's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    MBTI
    GONE
    Posts
    9,051

    Default

    I think in this case it's not what you say it's how you say it. Beyond that, I think this is necessary for both you and the sibling.

    In fact, I think for an Fi dom if you couch it in terms of how concerned you are for them and how this is best for them -- when they see your genuine concern and the consideration for their feelings etc. I think that is the sugar necessary to make the medicine go down.

    Good luck and let us know how it goes!
    “If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.” ― Oscar Wilde

    "I'm outtie 5000" ― Romulux

    Johari/Nohari

  2. #32
    12 and a half weeks BerberElla's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    MBTI
    infp
    Posts
    2,726

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Sytpg View Post
    I'm not a fan of ultimatums if they are out of the blue (who am I kidding, I'm not a fan of any kind of ultimatum). What you said seems reasonable provided you've talked about the situation with that person before.
    I believe I have, but Orangeappled has made me wonder if I actually have done it correctly in her post further down.

    Quote Originally Posted by Parrish View Post
    I don`t think you`re being rude, you`re doing the both of you a favour. He will have to stand on his own feet sooner or later and you`re making it as easy as possible. From what you`ve said it seems he`s not satisfied with his current position either, but doesn`t know where/what to start working on first. So hopefully this will give him a little push in the right direction. I`m guessing he`s still searching for something he`s interested in doing, but in the meanwhile it`d be only fair of him to contribute to your household.

    Try to talk to him about what he`d be interested in doing, once he has a set goal it`ll be easier to find motivation. And once he`ll start acting towards it, getting a job for the meanwhile won`t seem like a drag, and his self-esteem should be getting better at the same time. If you`ve got a job you`re happy doing tell him about it. I`m the same way, a terrible procrastinator. The times my parents corner me for a "talk" I`d act deffensive and want to end the conversation as soon as possible, but that`s because I already beat myself up because of it, it`s just that the motivation won`t bend to my will. Usually I feel better just by starting to work on/towards something. As soon as I take some small steps forward, I see the results and feel motivated to take bigger steps or devise a masterplan

    I`m sure he`s aware you`re a great big sister and apreciates your support. He just needs to clear his head.

    Added:
    Oh and about the ultimatum. It seems reasonable but if he`s not able to meet the deadline, tell him you`re open for negotiations, provided you can see him seriously trying and somehow contributing to the household (doing chores, splitting food expenses sometimes, rent...).


    Cheers
    I would be, I don't want to have to throw him out at all. I have alot of affection for my brother, his wellbeing means alot to me.

    I just want to kick him out of his rut he is in. As long as he is looking for work, as long as I can see he is actively trying.

    I'm even happy for him to enrol in college, even though that would mean he would still not be in the best situation to help out with his share of the costs, as at least my support is leading to somewhere.

    He has so much potential, zero belief in that potential, I hate watching him give up so soon.

    Quote Originally Posted by 2XtremeENFP View Post
    word it better


    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    Yes. Be harsh. In this case, it's the right thing to do. Kick that fucking tert/inf Te into gear. This kid needs to grow up.

    P.S. Nothing you're saying is even remotely rude or truly harsh. You're being more than reasonable. By helping him get a job you're actually coddling him. Expecting more out of him would actually be better for his self-esteem.

    All of this is shocking to me, frankly. I started baby-sitting at thirteen, had a real job by sixteen, paid my own car insurance once I got a car, and when I temporarily moved back in with my mother as an adult, I was expected to contribute in some way after the first few months.

    The only reason I would think you were being too harsh is if he's mentally ill or suffering from some sort of trauma where he would require excessive support.

    Does he have any interest in school?
    Same as, I grew up quick, was living independantly from the age of 17, so to me anyone saying my brother is young, is surprising. I always knew I was on my own.

    Yes, he has an interest, it was stronger last year but he missed the enrollment date. Then he sort of gave up. I've tried to bring back his enthusiasm for the course he had planned to do, reminding him that now would be a good time to start enrolling if the colleges were accepting applications, which they are as I just enrolled.
    Echo - "So are you trying to say she is Evil"

    DeWitt - "Something far worse, she's an Idealist"

    Berb's Johari Berb's Nohari

  3. #33
    12 and a half weeks BerberElla's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    MBTI
    infp
    Posts
    2,726

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by disregard View Post
    Rude? Boundaries are essential to the health of relationships and the individuals in them.

    It's not supportive (well, perhaps literally) to allow someone do nothing constructive with their time while mooching off others, it's damaging.
    I know, it's difficult though, not so easy for me to give tough love.

    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    Same here....

    If you've been mostly mum about your feelings & take the approach in the OP, then it will seem like it's coming out of nowhere, with no warning and may seem "unfair" to him because of it (even if it's not unfair). You basically want to take it in steps, and slowly up the ante if he does not respond.

    Do you already have open discussion about his work situation & general behavior in your home? Does he clearly know what you need from him and what you expect? Has it been stated in a way that is not just pointing out his deficit? ie., instead of saying, "You never do xyz", you could say, "I'd appreciate it if you did xyz more often." It's informing instead of accusing, and gives him the benefit of the doubt that he may have been trying at some point before.

    Sometimes us NFPs think we've stated clearly what we need, but we've been so diplomatic and indirect the point has gotten lost, and the other person is honestly oblivious to our frustrations.

    If you've been doing that, then great, and maybe it is time to give an ultimatum. It still may cause an argument if you word it too harshly though. What is your objective: to vent and feel better, or to actually motivate him to seriously look for work & obtain a job? Generally, criticism that has some encouragement and shows you believe in someone goes farther than just pointing out what they need to do and applying pressure.
    Maybe this is the case here. I've been so worried that I will inadvertantly word what I am saying in an offensive way that maybe my point is getting lost.

    I have had 2 outbursts in which I have clearly stated my frustrations, but because they were outbursts I have ended up feeling guilty pretty quickly and apologised. I've tried to make it clear I am only apologising for my behaviour but not the message I was trying to say, I just wish I had said it better.

    But maybe that defeats the whole purpose then.

    My intention is honestly to motivate him to start looking for work, not to vent. Venting is just a temporary fixer.

    I think sometimes the way he ignores some of the rules in my house, even though I believe I have pointed out he shouldn't, could be down to the way I point it out. No one ever thinks I am serious because I say things in a joke way.

    It's mad, I have to be this mentally healthy, strong but lovingly firm individual in order to help him, but I'm not those things.

    Ok, well before I lay any ultimatum I am going to have a talk to him, clearly define the boundaries I feel he continues to cross, with an explanation why. Broach the subject of his future in a supportive way that doesn't make him feel I am pointing out a deficit in him, but without making it feel like nothing needs to change.
    Echo - "So are you trying to say she is Evil"

    DeWitt - "Something far worse, she's an Idealist"

    Berb's Johari Berb's Nohari

  4. #34
    12 and a half weeks BerberElla's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    MBTI
    infp
    Posts
    2,726

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    Rude? No. Threatening? Yes.

    "Dude, you have all these people skills, right? I know you do, c'mon, you're great, I've seen you with the girls, playa! So who do you reckon you can con into giving you a job? This week's challenge: walk into five different places and talk them into giving you some work."
    I've tried the cocky confidence angle, a year ago it might have worked, as he was cockier back then. A year of doing nothing has ground down that edge.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sytpg View Post
    Yeah, also it is my opinion, that in situations were I'm in control, if someone is taking advantage of me it is my own fault. If someone was given no idea of how much a certain kind of behavior pisses me off I feel very bad giving them an ultimatum. Another reason why I prize honesty so much and direct communication.

    If you let people know what they can expect from the get go, you are helping them, by giving them information on how much they can count on and also you are helping yourself because you're conscience can be completely clear when it comes to dealing with whatever needs dealing with.
    I keep feeling like I have given him the idea how much something pisses me off, but maybe I haven't.


    Quote Originally Posted by Tallulah View Post
    Is it possible he's depressed? A lot of the time, from the outside, it can look like a depressed person is just lazy and irresponsible, when really, they don't feel like they are physically or emotionally able to handle things that would normally be no problem. His lack of interest and low self-esteem are red flags. If that's the case, that could be why he doesn't care about picking up after himself or thinking about leaving cereal for the kids. I'd try to do some poking around and see if that could be the case. When you're clinically depressed and people try to "encourage/motivate" you or give you ultimatums, it's devastating, because 1) you feel like you have no support system, and 2) you don't feel like you CAN give them what they want.

    If you are satisfied that he's not depressed, I think your approach is reasonable. You're his sibling, not his mother. He's not entitled to be supported.
    Ok, no I'm not satisfied that he isn't depressed, I have a suspicion he might be, but he is in denial if I try to suggest it. He is a "man" and as a man he doesn't suffer from silly stuff like that. He won't go and talk to anyone, he won't register himself at the doctors, he will never contemplate medication.

    How can I help him help himself in this situation?

    The ultimatum isn't something I want to do, I hate ultimatums, don't like giving them or recieving them either. I was just trying to think up a plan to kick him out of his rut, since this is what he tells me it is, and won't accept that he might be depressed.

    You are right though, keeping that in mind, it probably wouldn't work and would cause more damage, the last thing I want.




    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    It's not rude. At all. It's understandable. I can understand someone may get their feelings hurt by it.. but harsh stuff isn't the same as rude stuff.
    Based on the suspected depression above, do you think it's still understandable or would you have another suggestion?

    Quote Originally Posted by CzeCze View Post
    I think in this case it's not what you say it's how you say it. Beyond that, I think this is necessary for both you and the sibling.

    In fact, I think for an Fi dom if you couch it in terms of how concerned you are for them and how this is best for them -- when they see your genuine concern and the consideration for their feelings etc. I think that is the sugar necessary to make the medicine go down.

    Good luck and let us know how it goes!
    I would like to think he would know this already, I believe he does. I never say anything to anyone IRL without showing all of that.........I think lol this thread has got me wondering if I am as direct as I believe I am sometimes.

    Thanks for the replies everybody, been very helpful so far.
    Echo - "So are you trying to say she is Evil"

    DeWitt - "Something far worse, she's an Idealist"

    Berb's Johari Berb's Nohari

  5. #35
    Senior Member Eckhart's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    MBTI
    INFP
    Enneagram
    ???
    Socionics
    ????
    Posts
    1,097

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by BerberElla View Post
    Same as, I grew up quick, was living independantly from the age of 17, so to me anyone saying my brother is young, is surprising. I always knew I was on my own.
    Well, you don't have to take my words too serious in it, since I am quite a lazy dork actually. Well, I went to school regularly, I now study (in the time between school leaving and study begin I just sat at home for few months, since I had to wait until study begins), but I did not work at all since now (I am 19) and live at parents. I know many other in my age having at least some little side job to earn money, few have already left their parents home. However, I know there is also enough people as me who don't.

    I don't have many big materialistic wishes, so I don't need much money. If I knew I would need money to survive, I would have to work I guess, but I don't necessarily, because I live with parents, and they seem not very keen in letting me leave either. I want to have my own appartement, but I don't know whether I easily manage studying and working same time, having my own household etc.; I am lazy and while I never was at psychologist or something like that and I don't have some professional opinion, I had my time where I felt depressed and I couldn't do much at all. I feel now much better, but still it is not easy for me to do many things, I feel threatened by it. And I think my mother has finally noticed that I did not feel well in the last time, she threats me now with more attention. Safe way to make me threatened is giving me 5 different tasks same time to do NOW.

    Well, I at least cook 2 days a week and care for my own room, I will help few other things after some pressure on me, but all in all I am quite lazy with those things. Maybe I wouldn't make much less trouble to you than your brother, though I avoid doing much mess at least.

    When I knew that I live at my sibling instead of parents and then with own children, then I would want to behave different I think. I mean, I guess you are also still young (unless there is a big age difference between you), you have most of your life in front of you still. It seems you had to become mature very early, while some (not all) other people in your age could take life easier than you. I can understand that you cannot just do everything for everyone while neglecting yourself all the time, and you already have your children which sure need much care too.

    So I think it is in his own interest to find some own appartement, but I think he just does not know how to start to get out. He sure would need much help of you to just get started, but it is important that he knows he has to finally start doing something and not delaying anymore. He won't change anything without a clear statement of your side I think. If he is really depressed (did not come out clear), he probably should look for some professional help, but I can nearly bet that he will not want to admit it, since I would never. My mother asked me too sometimes whether I feel bad, but I tried to hide it mostly. Later I sometimes threw a few words out that I sometimes just don't know where to start things, and I think it made her understand me better.

    But well, it is not good when I try to analyze his situation without knowing him, so you have to know better than us how he feels and how he can deal with it. We can just say how your approach COULD get to him, and I think it is ok. The hint however that he should not think that the ultimatum comes "out of the blue" is very important.

  6. #36
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    9w1
    Posts
    473

    Default

    I think it's very rude (not an NFP though!)

  7. #37
    Let me count the ways Betty Blue's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    MBTI
    ENFP
    Enneagram
    7W6 sp/sx
    Socionics
    IEE
    Posts
    4,797

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by BerberElla View Post
    Looking to hear from both INFP's and ENFP's.

    Lets say you are 18 going on 19, you have been living with an older sibling for over a year. During this time you have not been in a position to provide for yourself, which means you have been relying on this sibling for food, clothing, shelter, spending money etc. Even though this sibling has 3 children already and is struggling to make ends meet anyway.

    Not only that, but for that entire year your efforts to get a job or make some kind of plan for the future has been next to non existant or minimal at best.

    This older sibling cracks and tells you:

    1 - You have 3 months to show an improvement in regards to trying to get a job, ie a visual change or you are out.

    2 - When you get that job, you need to provide some money towards your share of things instead of relying on the sibling anymore.

    3 - You have 6 months from getting the job to move out.


    Is this rude?

    Would you feel offended or would you honestly understand the motivating factors and forgive me for being "harsh"?

    Is there a better way to approach this?

    I have tried being silently supportive, but that has led to a year of mooching off of me with no effort to improve.

    I feel like being nice is only making things worse.
    Honey, theres a big thing your missing here
    He's not you, he does have someone-he has you.
    You can still help and support him if he's not living with you, you didn't have that, but he does.
    Stop with the guilt tripping yourself, he needs to fix up. There are plenty of flat shares out there, put him onto gumtree. He'll have to work and pay most of his money on rent like we did, thats life...he needs to find his own way. You can still talk to him everyday..hell you can even do his washing and take him round dinner if you want....
    Stick to your guns do not give in...you need to think of a consequence if he dosn't find a job...what if he dosn't, what do you do?
    Make it crystal clear...
    You could give him a list of jobcentres, websites, jobfinding papers etc etc wake him up when you get up, and get him out of the house when you take the kids to school....he needs to spend his time constructively, he can come back in the afternoons...just an idea

    Also could further study be an option for him, there are some new fangled yts schemes that pay a nominal amount like 30 a week to attend, they often have placements at the end. You could write up a rota of chores for him to do around the house while he's studying...that he has to stick to to earn his keep + he should give some of his money to you a nominal amount like a fiver.

    It's NOT mean of you to do theese things, it's helping him. You have to teach him to respect you, your children and your household, eventually he will thank you for it.
    I know it's hard, be tough.
    Remember he does have someone, it's you

  8. #38
    Allergic to Mornings ergophobe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    MBTI
    ENFP
    Enneagram
    7w6
    Socionics
    ENFP
    Posts
    1,210

    Default

    Hey lady! Your brother sounds like a very sweet, lost young man. I agree with Tallulah that he may be depressed. He still has to take responsibility for getting help though. You can't be everything to him. Definitely take a strong stand but do it kindly. I don't know what the exact financial situation is so please do what's best for you and your kids.

    Explain the situation to him especially that concerning the kids and how they are different because they are not old enough to take care of themselves like he is. Ask him for his "help" in taking care of himself and becoming independent - tell him you need him to do that for all of you. I think your strategy is wise. Just don't take away everything at once. There's no reason you should be providing him pocket money. Even parents don't do that beyond 18 for many of us. I'd ask him to start contributing an X amount towards rent and food in 4-6 weeks. That's plenty of time to find a job, any job even flipping burgers to make that rent. Everyone can find something. He is a man and I understand well the pride that stops them from doing a job they consider beneath him. You not enabling him by providing for him will help him overcome that. Everyone has to start somewhere. If he fails to do that then consider turning him out.

    As you take away physical support in food and shelter, offer more non-material support. see if you can just ask him what's going on. Be there more which must be mighty difficult if you're playing the mother role to your kids and him. That's what siblings can do in the long run, right. He's fortunate to have you in his life and that you're an ENFP. Slowly move to offering more comfort and encouragement and less material support.

  9. #39
    lab rat extraordinaire CrystalViolet's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    MBTI
    XNFP
    Enneagram
    5w4 sx/sp
    Posts
    2,170

    Default

    Na, you are not being unreasonable.
    I've been unemployed for a bit, it's tough out there. It's easy to lose motivation and give up. A good kick up the butt is maybe what he needs.
    The fear of starving is a BIG motivator. I can understand losing momentum, but some times you have to keep going even though all you want to do is curl up and sleep the days away. I've survived a failure in business, and potential homelessness, and I tell you nothing feels better than knowing, soon, I'll be standing on my two feet again. Seriously, he might not like it at the time, but in the long run, he'll feel better for it once he's got a job and is contributing.
    Currently submerged under an avalanche of books and paper work. I may come back up for air from time to time.
    Real life awaits and she is a demanding mistress.

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  10. #40
    12 and a half weeks BerberElla's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    MBTI
    infp
    Posts
    2,726

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Eckhart View Post
    <snipped>

    But well, it is not good when I try to analyze his situation without knowing him, so you have to know better than us how he feels and how he can deal with it. We can just say how your approach COULD get to him, and I think it is ok. The hint however that he should not think that the ultimatum comes "out of the blue" is very important.
    Thank you for your post, I think you have grasped his situation really well, you seem to understand where he is at. It's very similar, and if he had not been mixed up in crime for awhile, he probably would still be at home in the parents house living the same way you are now. I think he would take an ultimatum badly, the more I think about it.

    Maybe in part because he would feel the extremeness has come out of the blue, if not the reasons.



    Quote Originally Posted by Requeim View Post
    I think it's very rude (not an NFP though!)
    What would not be rude to you?

    Quote Originally Posted by GemPOPGem View Post
    Honey, theres a big thing your missing here
    He's not you, he does have someone-he has you.
    You can still help and support him if he's not living with you, you didn't have that, but he does.
    Stop with the guilt tripping yourself, he needs to fix up. There are plenty of flat shares out there, put him onto gumtree. He'll have to work and pay most of his money on rent like we did, thats life...he needs to find his own way. You can still talk to him everyday..hell you can even do his washing and take him round dinner if you want....
    Stick to your guns do not give in...you need to think of a consequence if he dosn't find a job...what if he dosn't, what do you do?
    Make it crystal clear...
    You could give him a list of jobcentres, websites, jobfinding papers etc etc wake him up when you get up, and get him out of the house when you take the kids to school....he needs to spend his time constructively, he can come back in the afternoons...just an idea

    Also could further study be an option for him, there are some new fangled yts schemes that pay a nominal amount like 30 a week to attend, they often have placements at the end. You could write up a rota of chores for him to do around the house while he's studying...that he has to stick to to earn his keep + he should give some of his money to you a nominal amount like a fiver.

    It's NOT mean of you to do theese things, it's helping him. You have to teach him to respect you, your children and your household, eventually he will thank you for it.
    I know it's hard, be tough.
    Remember he does have someone, it's you
    See, my sister, the ESFJ, would do exactly that. My other brother lived with her for a few months and she would throw him out in the morning and not let him back until the evening, in the hopes he would use that time to better himself, instead he used that time to hang around Grove getting high and getting into trouble with his friends.

    One of my things is knowing that he won't use that time well, he will hang around, if not in grove because of where I am based, then with his new petty theft friends locally, and get in trouble again, something that hasnt happened since I took him in.

    It has to be depression, depression keeps me inside, and it seems to do the same to him. The jobcentres are in the centre of a busy town, and he says the thought of going there, amongst all those people stresses him out. I offer to go with him, but that embarrasses him.......I think, as he doesn't take me up on that offer.

    I have tried to be supportive, to motivate him, I show him ideas, courses, the princes trust etc. The £30 a week thing stops at 19, so it's not an option anymore.

    Haha I see myself in him, the way I gave up so often, but necessity forced me to work or starve.

    I feel as if only necessity will force him to man up, is that really the only way?

    The other way seems to be continue to blindly support him until he feels better and sorts himself out, but there is no end in sight to that.

    Anyway I'm making up a chore sheet today, alot of my anger is building up because he barely does his share, and I feel like I'm nagging all the time. This evening I will go over it with him, along with a talk about the other stuff.

    Like selling one of my mobile phones whilst I was away, or taking my alcohol out for his mates and replacing it with water, or any of the many other things he does that seem so standard I am angry that I even need to bring them up. :steam:

    I will do it calmly, without losing my cool. I should write a list of things I want to talk about so I don't forget them.

    Then take it from there, see how things go.
    Echo - "So are you trying to say she is Evil"

    DeWitt - "Something far worse, she's an Idealist"

    Berb's Johari Berb's Nohari

Similar Threads

  1. Neighbors! How would you handle this?
    By CzeCze in forum The Bonfire
    Replies: 32
    Last Post: 06-02-2009, 09:20 AM
  2. What type would you say this guy is?
    By Samvega in forum What's my Type?
    Replies: 7
    Last Post: 04-14-2009, 05:01 PM
  3. How would you solve this
    By chegra in forum Academics and Careers
    Replies: 27
    Last Post: 04-05-2009, 12:42 PM
  4. what would you guess this guy's type is?
    By white in forum The Fluff Zone
    Replies: 13
    Last Post: 02-18-2008, 11:23 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO