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Thread: Morality in NTs

  1. #21
    pathwise dependent FDG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shaunward View Post
    I use what socio-economic power I have to discriminate against people who go against the grain of my morals and aid those that generally promote them or live by them.
    You'd make a good pope.

    Btw, are you real or just a troll?
    ENTj 7-3-8 sx/sp

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    You'd make a good pope.

    Btw, are you real or just a troll?
    I make statements I believe to be true. I've noticed subconsciously that I sometimes word things in a way that while true, generate a response. So while I do believe what I say, I choose a way that lets me learn from others. I don't mean to upset people, just get them to reveal a bit more about themselves.

    Does this response sufficiently answer your question?

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    pathwise dependent FDG's Avatar
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    Yeah, you're a troll. Thank you.
    ENTj 7-3-8 sx/sp

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    Senior Member Moiety's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Begoner View Post
    In my opinion, to the extent that (stereotypical) NF morality differs from NT morality, one is rooted in feelings while the other is predicated upon reason. For example, if there was a runaway trolley that was going to kill five people and the only way to avert that catastrophe would be to push an obese man in front of the trolley (thereby stopping it but killing him), an NT would be more likely to make the correct decision. On the other hand, when it comes to dealing with everyday emotional situations, NFs are more adept than NTs.

    When one thinks of morally virtuous people, one might think of Mother Teresa, who exemplifies compassionate, NF-based morality. On the other hand, Bill Gates, as a philanthropist, used NT-based logic to determine how to best help people. And, of course, he did far more good than a hundred Mother Teresas could have done -- yet he is seldom seen as a moral paragon. The problem isn't that NTs aren't moral, but that our concept of morality is founded upon emotion rather than reason.
    No offense, but I don't think you know what you are talking about.

    I would argue you can't have morality solely based on reason alone OR feelings alone. Reason never points to anything moral because it needs some sort of emotion to discriminate on how/when/where to that same reason.

    And any self-respecting NF will always introduce some degree of logical coherence to their own morality.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    Yeah, you're a troll. Thank you.
    Depends on your definition. To me, a troll is somebody that aims, first and foremost, to annoy and provoke. The actions a troll may include condescending with terms as "cute", making passive-aggressive anticomplements, displaying general hostility toward posters, et cetera. I assure you, such is not my aim.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shaunward View Post
    Depends on your definition. To me, a troll is somebody that aims, first and foremost, to annoy and provoke. The actions a troll may include condescending with terms as "cute", making passive-aggressive anticomplements, displaying general hostility toward posters, et cetera. I assure you, such is not my aim.
    Ok...an elegant, high-class troll
    ENTj 7-3-8 sx/sp

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    Senior Member Moiety's Avatar
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    FDG, there's a difference between a troll and a megalomaniac ENTJ. You of all people should know.(being an ENTJ yourself, I mean)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sytpg View Post
    I would argue you can't have morality solely based on reason alone OR feelings alone. Reason never points to anything moral because it needs some sort of emotion to discriminate on how/when/where to that same reason.
    I would take the opposite position: only reason can illuminate morality. Emotion enters the equation insofar as our brains are hard-wired to have particular emotional reactions to acts which are evolutionarily detrimental to the community. For example, when we see someone being beaten up, our instinct might tell us to intervene, as morality would dictate. On the other hand, we can often be led astray by such feelings -- many people think gay sex is immoral, even though it obviously isn't, because of how they personally feel about it (i.e., it's gross so it must be wrong). And people are much more likely to donate to local charities (i.e., help their community) than give money where it is needed the most (to alleviate crippling poverty in Africa, perhaps). In the trolley example I cited, 80% of people selected the immoral answer -- not due to ethical reasoning, but because of a visceral, emotional response against murder.

    Certainly, morality cannot exist among beings completely devoid of emotion and feeling -- since such beings cannot be wronged, there can be no wrong. However, moral truth can only be determined by taking emotion rationally into account. In general, reasoning in this manner comes more naturally to NTs than NFs.

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    Senior Member Moiety's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Begoner View Post
    I would take the opposite position: only reason can illuminate morality.
    I wouldn't say it is opposite. I agree with that. I would add that only morality can illuminate reason, though. Reason needs a purpose or goal to be used in the first place.

    Quote Originally Posted by Begoner View Post
    Emotion enters the equation insofar as our brains are hard-wired to have particular emotional reactions to acts which are evolutionarily detrimental to the community.
    Or the individual. And emotion is not just opposing in nature. You can see emotional reactions to acts which are evolutionarily benign to the community (or individual) also.

    And the scope can vary. Short-term, long-term, humans as a race, humans as individuals.


    For example, when we see someone being beaten up, our instinct might tell us to intervene, as morality would dictate
    As feelings would dictate. Morality is not just the conduct influenced by the whole of your feelings. If that were the case no one would ever be polite in any way to someone they never met before, but who reeks of "bad news". It is always tempered by some sort of reasoning, however crude and simple.


    Certainly, morality cannot exist among beings completely devoid of emotion and feeling -- since such beings cannot be wronged, there can be no wrong. However, moral truth can only be determined by taking emotion rationally into account.

    Or reason emotionally into account. (You say one must filter feelings in a rational way. I agree, but I would add you need to filter reason in a emotional way too.) If one even BELIEVES in an "moral truth" as you put, in which I, an NF, personally don't. Morality will always be a relative concept. There is nothing that all of the human race can agree upon as right or wrong. No single concept.

    On the other hand, we can often be led astray by such feelings -- many people think gay sex is immoral, even though it obviously isn't, because of how they personally feel about it (i.e., it's gross so it must be wrong). And people are much more likely to donate to local charities (i.e., help their community) than give money where it is needed the most (to alleviate crippling poverty in Africa, perhaps). In the trolley example I cited, 80% of people selected the immoral answer -- not due to ethical reasoning, but because of a visceral, emotional response against murder.
    In general, reasoning in this manner comes more naturally to NTs than NFs.

    Pure logic as defined in Ti and Te descriptions, sure. But I think you might have to distinguish between SFs (or even SPs and SJs) and NF when it comes to morality. Our N ensures we are usually more interested and prone to reading between the lines and considering the implications. An NF is not as interested in "petty charity" as you might think. We are called idealists for a reason.




    PS : Just to clarify (I typ0 left and right) - where I wrote "Reason never points to anything moral because it needs some sort of emotion to discriminate on how/when/where to that same reason." it should read "Reason never points to anything moral because it needs some sort of emotion to discriminate on how/when/where to use that same reason.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Begoner View Post
    Certainly, morality cannot exist among beings completely devoid of emotion and feeling -- since such beings cannot be wronged, there can be no wrong. However, moral truth can only be determined by taking emotion rationally into account. In general, reasoning in this manner comes more naturally to NTs than NFs.
    Let's work from your view that NFs have a more adequate sense of handling emotions than NTs.

    If you reason from the wrong set of assumptions--such as a "faulty" initial emotional response--you've still drawn incorrect conclusions. Therefore, while an NT might be able to reason in such a manner, that isn't all that's necessary to provide the "correct" response to a moral situation.

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