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  1. #1
    Senior Member Rachelinpa's Avatar
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    Default wanting justification.

    i'm an enfp, and i'm pretty aware of when i do something that isn't right. however, sometimes i want someone else to validate me or justify that my actions were warranted or that what i did wasn't THAT bad. i feel like i'm so hard on myself anyway that i don't really need someone to further affirm that what i did was potentially wrong.

    here's my example...

    last night, i asked istp out for a drink KNOWING that i had told friends that i would meet up with them for quizzo later. at any rate, i had always planned on going to quizzo, but i figured i could do both. i ended up going super late and basically missed the whole thing. all my friends were totally mad at me and ended up leaving right when i arrived. i normally would have given them a heads up that i had lost track of time, but i had left my phone in my car when i was with istp and failed to respond to the TEN individual text messages they sent me asking where i was. i felt awful for letting them down: a) because i don't want to ever be the girl who dumps her friends for her guy (so i feel like perhaps i went against one of my own personal values here) and b) because i told them i would be there.

    at any rate, i expressed to istp how i felt about the situation and he said something like "well, you know what you did was wrong, so you should just apologize." i can't explain why, but i bristled when he said this to me. i guess maybe because i felt like he didn't realize the whole situation. i explained to istp that quizzo goes on every week. i invite people EVERY WEEK. they rarely show up, they bail last minute, and they always make me feel bad when i miss their social events (which is rare). not to mention, i said, none of them would be friends in the first place if i hadn't introduced them all to each other! (i guess it's like i sort of want to put the fun into action and then let it run on its own without feeling the burden of responsibility to keep it spinning)

    istp goes to me, "so you want a pass." "yes! i want a pass!"

    you'd think that would be the end of our conversation, but NO!

    i can see all this happening, and i'm telling istp how i feel and all these feelings of letting my friends down are whirling about me, and then i start thinking: "well, now istp thinks i'm a horrible friend too." and, i just feel awful and i think, "well, now i'm just a stupid girl who can't take criticism from an istp who is only telling the truth and trying to be helpful." and then i think, "i don't value my relationships enough. i should give all my friends gift baskets for being so terrible!"

    i guess when it comes down to it, i feel like i do a lot for my friends and i'm weary of being taken advantage of and angry that i have to always be held to this high standard. this high standard i obviously cast upon myself and this image is only fueled by the fact that istp somehow has this idealized view of me (which i secretly like). so now not only have i not kept up with my own personal standard (which i despise at times like this), but now istp probably thinks i'm fake (which horrifies me).

    at any rate, i wish there wasn't such a crazy whirlwind of feelings involved in everything i do. or, i wish i knew how to cope with them better. i don't know what i should ask istp to do when i come to him vulnerably expressing my feelings. obviously, he cannot help but be honest with me. he wanted to know what his stance should be and i couldn't tell him. frankly, maybe it's my issue that i can't take criticism. thing is, i don't really know how to be like logical about it-- "okay, i did something wrong. i apologize. it's over." NO! instead i berate myself a thousand times over until i feel like i've suffered enough for being an idiot.

    bah, any suggestions for me? please tread lightly. i still feel bad about it this morning.

  2. #2
    You have a choice! 21%'s Avatar
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    I don't know, but to me, what you did really wasn't that bad. It's not like you left someone stranded on her own -- your friends were there in a group. Can't they have fun for one day without you? Maybe it's because I come from a super relaxed girl-friend culture -- if one friend misses a get-together because she's out with some guy, well, good for her! We might tease her to death about it later, but we certainly wouldn't be mad. I think what they did (leaving when you arrived) was pretty harsh, because at least you did eventually show up.

    I wouldn't have liked the "Well, you know what you did was wrong, so you should apologize" either. I think NFs are pretty hard on themselves, and although that is good, logical advice, it just feels like the guy doesn't understand that you are already feeling bad about the whole situation. One thing that I find helpful when I'm feeling horrible with myself is for someone just to say "It's okay. Try to relax and think straight. We'll find a way to fix it, ok?" (the whole "you did wrong" thing would just either make me go up in flames screaming "I know!" or break down and cry and wish I could just die to make up for my mistake)

    I can relate a lot to your post, although in very different scenarios. I hope you feel better soon!

  3. #3
    Senior Member Rachelinpa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 21% View Post
    I don't know, but to me, what you did really wasn't that bad. It's not like you left someone stranded on her own -- your friends were there in a group. Can't they have fun for one day without you? Maybe it's because I come from a super relaxed girl-friend culture -- if one friend misses a get-together because she's out with some guy, well, good for her! We might tease her to death about it later, but we certainly wouldn't be mad. I think what they did (leaving when you arrived) was pretty harsh, because at least you did eventually show up.

    I wouldn't have liked the "Well, you know what you did was wrong, so you should apologize" either. I think NFs are pretty hard on themselves, and although that is good, logical advice, it just feels like the guy doesn't understand that you are already feeling bad about the whole situation. One thing that I find helpful when I'm feeling horrible with myself is for someone just to say "It's okay. Try to relax and think straight. We'll find a way to fix it, ok?" (the whole "you did wrong" thing would just either make me go up in flames screaming "I know!" or break down and cry and wish I could just die to make up for my mistake)

    I can relate a lot to your post, although in very different scenarios. I hope you feel better soon!

    thank you. exactly! i have a really hard time with the honesty is the best policy mindset. i mean, i do WANT to love honesty, but should it always be valued more than kindness and sensitivity? and, then i think, maybe i am just a weaker party... and do i really want to be treated like a baby who can't handle the truth... is kindness less important than truth? do they have to be mutually exclusive?

  4. #4
    half mystic, half skeksis jenocyde's Avatar
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    Did they leave because you arrived, or did you arrive when they were leaving?

  5. #5
    Senior Member Rachelinpa's Avatar
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    arrived when they were leaving. some of them were nice about it. most of them weren't.

  6. #6
    half mystic, half skeksis jenocyde's Avatar
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    Ok, are you sure your friends were as mad at you as you are making it seem, or are you just being paranoid? If someone told you she was annoyed, did you flip it into this whole "she hates me" vibe?

  7. #7
    Lay the coin on my tongue SilkRoad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rachelinpa View Post

    at any rate, i expressed to istp how i felt about the situation and he said something like "well, you know what you did was wrong, so you should just apologize." i can't explain why, but i bristled when he said this to me. i guess maybe because i felt like he didn't realize the whole situation. i explained to istp that quizzo goes on every week. i invite people EVERY WEEK. they rarely show up, they bail last minute, and they always make me feel bad when i miss their social events (which is rare). not to mention, i said, none of them would be friends in the first place if i hadn't introduced them all to each other! (i guess it's like i sort of want to put the fun into action and then let it run on its own without feeling the burden of responsibility to keep it spinning)
    To me, the above is really the key. I definitely relate to your "wanting justification" thing and ESPECIALLY if your friends behave as you say above. They are being more than a little hypocritical in making you feel really bad about this, if it's their habit to not show up, bail, etc etc. You obviously said sorry on this occasion, and you would have let them know if you could but you didn't have your phone. I also think ISTP was being rather unhelpful and legalistic about this and not realising how that would hurt your feelings more.

    I completely sympathize. It can be a really nasty feeling if people deliberately make you feel bad for something that isn't really that huge a deal, and from what you said, I'm pretty sure you apologised at least up to a point (and I don't think grovelling is exactly appropriate for a situation like this.) If your friends are in the habit of doing the same thing without being particularly apologetic, and if they then ream you out if you make the same mistake, or if you miss their social occasions, it frankly sounds like they are being jerks. It makes me really angry and upset when people blame you and deliberately make you feel bad when you make the same mistakes they make, especially if you try to fix it to the best of your ability. That happened to me recently (though quite a different situation from the above) and my friendship with the person involved has at the very least suffered serious damage as a result.

    By the way, along the same lines of the "wanting justification for your own actions" thing, I also find myself badly wanting people who have hurt me, acted badly, etc etc to come back and acknowledge their own mistake to me (especially if I made a mistake, acted hurtfully etc but made a point of acknowledging it and apologising.) Unfortunately, you can sometimes end up waiting a lifetime for those acknowledgements.

    Hope you feel better soon...
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  8. #8
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    i bet they were just pissed off at the moment. dont worry about it, theyll calm down and most likely are allready calmed down, but your still feeling bad about it. why?
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
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  9. #9
    Lay the coin on my tongue SilkRoad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    i bet they were just pissed off at the moment. dont worry about it, theyll calm down and most likely are allready calmed down, but your still feeling bad about it. why?
    Because she's an NF!! We stay upset about things and don't move on for way too long, speaking for myself anyway
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  10. #10
    half mystic, half skeksis jenocyde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilkRoad View Post
    To me, the above is really the key. I definitely relate to your "wanting justification" thing and ESPECIALLY if your friends behave as you say above. They are being more than a little hypocritical in making you feel really bad about this, if it's their habit to not show up, bail, etc etc. You obviously said sorry on this occasion, and you would have let them know if you could but you didn't have your phone. I also think ISTP was being rather unhelpful and legalistic about this and not realising how that would hurt your feelings more.

    I completely sympathize. It can be a really nasty feeling if people deliberately make you feel bad for something that isn't really that huge a deal, and from what you said, I'm pretty sure you apologised at least up to a point (and I don't think grovelling is exactly appropriate for a situation like this.) If your friends are in the habit of doing the same thing without being particularly apologetic, and if they then ream you out if you make the same mistake, or if you miss their social occasions, it frankly sounds like they are being jerks. It makes me really angry and upset when people blame you and deliberately make you feel bad when you make the same mistakes they make, especially if you try to fix it to the best of your ability. That happened to me recently (though quite a different situation from the above) and my friendship with the person involved has at the very least suffered serious damage as a result.

    By the way, along the same lines of the "wanting justification for your own actions" thing, I also find myself badly wanting people who have hurt me, acted badly, etc etc to come back and acknowledge their own mistake to me (especially if I made a mistake, acted hurtfully etc but made a point of acknowledging it and apologising.) Unfortunately, you can sometimes end up waiting a lifetime for those acknowledgements.

    Hope you feel better soon...
    On the other hand, are these "friends" the same friends that don't show up to your events or are you blanketing all these people under flaky friends category?

    And why were they mad? Did you apologize for being late when you showed up, or just started making excuses? If you were out with ISTP and left your phone in the car, why didn't you answer the texts when you got back to your phone instead of ignoring them and just showing up really late? There are 2 sides to every story.

    Initially you said all your friends were mad at you, then you said that some of them were actually nice. I'm just curious if the situation was as dire or if you're just working yourself up.

    I don't think the ISTP was deliberately making you feel bad. You asked if you were wrong and he said yes. What's the big deal about that? Are people not allowed to tell other people when they are wrong? If so, then why ask?

    I feel bad for you, OP, that you get so stressed out over things like this. I'm sorry that you feel so badly about the whole situation. But my guess is that it isn't as stressful as your brain is telling you it is.

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