[MBTI General] wanting justification.

[Tallulah]

oh, of course i apologized! and with all sincerity! and, i STILL felt bad afterwards.

If you apologized sincerely, and it was clear that you understood why they'd be upset, and they didn't let it go, that's their own insecurity or something at play, and you can't beat yourself up about it. You made an honest mistake. All you can do is own it and move on. If you have a habit of doing this a lot, though (and I don't know if that's the case--just speculating another reason they might still be upset), they might feel like you don't really understand what you did wrong, and are just trying to blow them off.

right, but it's not especially helpful to be told something i already know. i did own up to it, but i still have a difficult time letting it go and so do my friends, apparently.

Hee, well, you did ask. Don't ask if you want it to go in a certain direction. Especially don't ask a T. Especially a male T.

 

[SilkRoad]

Lots of good comments here.

My bit of wisdom for the day...something I have been thinking about a lot lately...is that all of us need to learn to accept responsibility for our own actions...and to not accept responsibility for the actions of others.

So simple, but hard to put into practice!

in other words, i can analyze my feelings to death, understand why i feel them, but then do not know how to cut myself loose from them...

I relate...big time!

 

[INTP]

yeah, i wish i could get past things quicker... it's a gift to be able to do that. sometimes i feel like relationships are more trouble than they are worth.

someone said in a post somewhere that people think being an enfp is like this:



but that in reality it is more like this:



so true.

imo stop the and start to

even tho your nf, it doesent mean that you couldnt do reasoning, it just might take bit more effort for you than for nt for example.

you dont need to stop feeling bad even if you try to rationally think about it, but i can assure after you do think about it rationally you will feel better.

ask these questions from yourself and try to look at ansvers from someone elses point of view(preferably from your friends who were mad at you or if they are all feelers, then try to think from T point of view):

why were they pissed off?
how mad are they at you?
will they be pissed off at you for long?
if you think that they will be mad at you for long, ask yourself if its justified or not(coinsidering after all the times they have threated you badly and after all the good things you have done to them).
what happens if they stay mad at you for longer than a day?
why should you feel so bad about this?
you feel really bad about this and basicly you are unconsciously punishing yourself about it. have you punished yourself enough allready?
do you feel more bad about this than your friends do. if you do feel more bad about this, then you have punished yourself more than enough allready.

if these arent enough questions try to come up with more

 

[Rachelinpa]

You used the word justified, but I suspect you may be looking more for someone to justify your feelings (about the situation), rather than justifying your actions. The thing about going to a third party is that we REALLY want our feelings to be validated by the person we feel wronged by so any relief we feel is fleeting when we go the third party route.

As for me, going to the person I am feeling conflicted about and talking to them about my feelings is the only solution. It is the only thing that lifts the weight off of my shoulders. I was taught long, long ago that my feelings didn't matter and I was only valued (and loved) by tending to others emotions and needs while smiling, always being "happy" and never complaining, so having these discussions is extremely difficult sometimes. I have learned through an arduous process that people seem to receive me well when I focus on how I am feeling and not what they did "wrong" - especially because the issue is entirely in my head half the time. It almost always leads to a very good result and not the train wreck I was imagining in my head. Does that make sense?

yes! that's it! definitely difficult to have those conversations. people are always so shocked when we reach the end of our rope or finally are bothered enough to say something. ooo, that is very true... the part about focusing on how i "feel" instead of the "wrong" thing. i talked to istp last night and when i communicated that what he said MADE ME FEEL--he was so surprised (how is that even possible?) and explained that it certainly wasn't his intent, he would try to work on his delivery and... would i like some more waffles? hahaha. it's incredible to me how affected i was by the situation and how he thought that nothing was wrong at all. how could he have even thought that?! ridiculous.

thank you so much for affirming that. it's true, i mostly just want my feelings validated. i guess it can be difficult sometimes when i'm not entirely sure EXACTLY what it is i'm feeling, and when i'm having to talk to people right away instead of stepping back to process... it all comes out in a jumble of thoughts and emotions!

istp last night was like "i think you've reached the istp emotional quota for the day. you have fully exhausted istp." of course, immediately i start to think OH NO! He can't handle me!! but, of course, he was kidding. in fact, most of the time he is.

 

[Rachelinpa]

If you apologized sincerely, and it was clear that you understood why they'd be upset, and they didn't let it go, that's their own insecurity or something at play, and you can't beat yourself up about it. You made an honest mistake. All you can do is own it and move on. If you have a habit of doing this a lot, though (and I don't know if that's the case--just speculating another reason they might still be upset), they might feel like you don't really understand what you did wrong, and are just trying to blow them off.

Hee, well, you did ask. Don't ask if you want it to go in a certain direction. Especially don't ask a T. Especially a male T.

thank you. i will try to work on learning how to move on.

yes, i know. Ts. hahaha. i wish i could T my way through life sometimes. i think i can learn a lot from you all. haha. RUN from the hugs!!

 

[JoSunshine]

yes! that's it! definitely difficult to have those conversations. people are always so shocked when we reach the end of our rope or finally are bothered enough to say something. ooo, that is very true... the part about focusing on how i "feel" instead of the "wrong" thing. i talked to istp last night and when i communicated that what he said MADE ME FEEL--he was so surprised (how is that even possible?) and explained that it certainly wasn't his intent, he would try to work on his delivery and... would i like some more waffles? hahaha. it's incredible to me how affected i was by the situation and how he thought that nothing was wrong at all. how could he have even thought that?! ridiculous.

thank you so much for affirming that. it's true, i mostly just want my feelings validated. i guess it can be difficult sometimes when i'm not entirely sure EXACTLY what it is i'm feeling, and when i'm having to talk to people right away instead of stepping back to process... it all comes out in a jumble of thoughts and emotions!

istp last night was like "i think you've reached the istp emotional quota for the day. you have fully exhausted istp." of course, immediately i start to think OH NO! He can't handle me!! but, of course, he was kidding. in fact, most of the time he is.

Good for you Rachelinpa! It sounds like you feel much better since you talked to your guy...see he does care about how you feel - I think you will find that most people do. Isn't that a comfort in itself? I'm happy for you

Once again, I understand what you mean about "not being entirely sure exactly what it is I'm feeling". I think becuase of this, it is OK to step back sometimes, think about it and then go back to the person (like you did last night). I sometimes tell people that I can't talk to them in the moment and that I have to "process". I will literally sit alone with my eyes closed and ask myself, "What am I feeling?" Then I just let my thoughts, emotions and fears freely float through my head. It sounds super corney, but it works for me (holy repressed emotions, batman!!!!). Then I go back and talk to the person - calmly and with my thoughts/feelings collected and intelligable

OK, I am ENFJing all over you! Good luck darling and just know that what you feel matters

 

[jenocyde]

it's incredible to me how affected i was by the situation and how he thought that nothing was wrong at all. how could he have even thought that?! ridiculous.

Hahaha, it works both ways. Like it's crazy to think that you had no clue that most "Ts" consider the matter to be over when we finish the conversation. It seems pretty obvious - people talk when they have something to say and stop talking when they are done. I find it shocking how many things are obsessed about and gone unsaid by "F" types, only to be confronted out of the blue much later with an emo dump.

Ahhh well, lessons to be learned for everyone.

 

[ergophobe]

This sounds all too familiar. ENFPs needing constant external validation, no....

Some practical suggestions and some of what resonates with me. The latter first:
I struggle with the idea of looking outside in deciding how much. On one hand, getting external opinions and not thinking of ourselves as omniscient is a real strength, a sign of humility, a sign of being open to criticism and one of the things I love about maturing as an ENFP. The problem is when we don't use this external input for the purpose of reflection at all but instead need it simply to stroke our ego. You clearly have a well developed Fi. It likely pointed to guilt in the situation you mentioned. In my case, I know when I have done something which may have hurt/harmed someone else and I am very harsh on myself. To drown out this unbearable Fi noise, I seek justification from within and without. From within, it's in the form of using past wrongs from the other side -- well, this is what they did which completely deserve my actions. There. Nicely balanced. Doesn't work, does it? Fi still complains

From without, it's getting reassurance from friends, family, anyone who will listen to reinstate that idealistic view of ourselves as caring human beings. From my own experience, that doesn't work either. When I know I'm at fault, I know. People validating my need for reassurance just lose my trust in the long run. When I've come out of the "woe is me, I've been wronged" loop, I can see the situation more clearly and then I not only dislike my own weakness, I also dislike the enablers. Your ISTP guy is an asset in that he speaks truthfully. That's rare.

You already know the answer - Fi is giving it to you without you asking for it . The key as others have said is not drowning in it. Striking that balance between being able to listen to Fi and not getting completely lost in what it reflects. Ultimately, it was a small transgression among friends. Friends forgive and forget. Those who don't won't last very long around an ENP. Your strong moral compass is a strength. Being genuinely sorry and expressing it, resolving to do better in the future and moving on is all you can do. Other people control how they react.

Practical advice:

When I don't want to hear what I already know (I did something I regret) because it's only going to add to the Fi noise, I ask the person I turn to to just listen. They don't have to give me the honest truth if I'm not ready and they don't have to lie or sugar coat it either. The best answers are the ones we find for ourselves and sometimes as an extrovert and a rambly one at that, it's nice just to have someone who listens patiently as I figure out how I feel about it all so that I can Te through -- sort, file, make a decision on how to resolve the problem and move on.

I am a very dependable friend but I am also regularly tardy for social engagements and sometimes feel hemmed in by my own plans so I have to change them at short notice. While my friends are very understanding, I don't want to disappoint them or myself. I try to not over commit and keep the few commitments I make. I'll still be me but I have a cut off by which a decision must be made and the person informed. Beyond that, I stick to the original commitment. The friends appreciate the effort but it's also to keep me sane. I don't like disappointing myself. That crazy, relentless Fi... it just won't shut up.

Hope you're feeling better about it all.

 

[foolish heart]

Sometimes the problem is not wanting justification for yourself, but justifying other people. Plans change for everyone, I don't think you did anything wrong except to put up with your friends making drama about it. I guess you could ask for their forgiveness for inconveniencing them (at worst) but past that there's not much you can do about it, so why sweat it?

It seems like the vast majority of the things that bother a person are forgotten within a day, so sometimes we need to just step back and laugh at ourselves and others for taking our own inconveniences so seriously. I know it's terribly cliche, but there's some kid in Africa who hasn't eaten in days with flies on his face and we get irritated when we have to reboot our cell phone. Yeah, it's not any one of us over there but it is reality. I've never been in a 3rd world country and I complain too, but the more I think about it, the more I think we all need to keep things in perspective a little better and just get over ourselves sometimes.

 

[Spastic_Blondie]

I wondered the very same thing, many, many times...What am I supposed to do with all these feelings???? For me the answer is get them out...get them outside of myself and into the world. I used to (and I admit still do at times) talk to a third party looking for VALIDATION of my feelings. You used the word justified, but I suspect you may be looking more for someone to justify your feelings (about the situation), rather than justifying your actions. The thing about going to a third party is that we REALLY want our feelings to be validated by the person we feel wronged by so any relief we feel is fleeting when we go the third party route.

AMEN to that. Chances are that you're a hundred times more upset than they are and they don't really understand that or how much effort you've tried to put in to make them happy...and that's frustrating. (I've been there.) But if they really do have such a problem with you ditching them one time to talk to a nice guy, then you need to go to them with this discussion. Don't let them walk all over you. And try not to blame istp, haha. My brother is istp and I've lived my entire life with him. The only thing they really understand is logic, so the whole "emotions" thing is just out of their realm of expertise. It's alien to them lol. He probably doesn't understand the way we NF's over-react to things and was just trying to be helpful by applying his own methods of conflict resolution to your situation, when really they had nothing in common. You would have had to really explain the situation for him to understand that you weren't in the wrong, and even then he would probably wonder why it mattered so much. He was judging the situation simply by your reaction to it, not realizing that you would freak out over something so trivial.

I do the exact same thing, haha, so by no means am I trying to criticize. ISTP could learn to be more supportive, but you could also accept that this probably isn't such a big deal. That's REALLY hard, I know. I feel like I should take my own advice lol, but I guess the fact that I'm looking at the situation from the OUTSIDE gives me more objectivity.