[ENFP] ENFP+INTJ=Disasterous Combo o' love

[Zarathustra]

Will you deny that 2+2 = 4? Or that the surrounding physical world can so precisely and accurately be defined (if not exactly understood) by physics?

By the words "logic" and "reason", I meant theoretical (but practical) constructs such as math and physics, not the simple misuse of words (that "philosophers" are so fond of using). I don't think that you can prove to me 2+2 =/= 4, however I can prove to you 2+2 = 4. Its as simple as that. As far as I understand "logic", it is the understanding of reality (the physical world) and using this understanding (and experimentation) to further develop more understanding. Words are simply a tool I use to express this very intuitive "logic" to other people. I know exactly what you mean by the "language game", but I have never fondly looked at those who play such games and call it "logic", "reason", or "philosophy".

I do my best to pursue to "truth" (understanding the actual state of the physical world). This "truth" further leads to an understanding of our existence. I don't see how this pursuit is simply a "particular game or narrative". Here, I am not going to argue about the "inherent truth" discovered through "logic" (since I don't see how 2+2 =/= 4). However, I will admit that sometimes, I myself wonder whether 2+2 = 4 and how this could be my perception (the limitation of the human mind), just like we are not able to imagine other colors.

Maybe you would like reading Wittgenstein.

He was originally a philosopher of math, who tried to prove the foundation of mathematics.

Ultimately, like those who tried before him, he failed.

That being said, I'm not saying 2+2=/=4.

I'm just saying, at least to some extent (I'm not denying that the rules we've created make sense), it is so because we've defined what "2", "4", "addition" and "equalling" mean, and, when you play by those definitions and rules, then, yes, 2+2=4.

Regardless, the much more important question is: how do you move from "2+2=4" to "the universe is meaningless"?

 

[SillySapienne]

Eh, to clarify, I know PLENTY OF RATIONALS, who are not only esteemed academics, and hugely successful in their field, but who are also happy individuals.

Shit, think of Richard Feynman, listen to his lectures.

He was a happy man, and ridiculously bright, and rational, too.

Own your own misery, don't use rationalism as an excuse as to why you're miserable, that is simply hogwash.

Your misery has something entirely different to do with than your rationality, period.

 

[Zarathustra]

Eh, to clarify, I know PLENTY OF RATIONALS, who are not only esteemed academics, and hugely successful in their field, but who are also happy individuals.

Shit, think of Richard Feynman, listen to his lectures.

He was a happy man, and ridiculously bright, and rational, too.

Own your own misery, don't use rationalism as an excuse as to why your miserable, that is simply hogwash.

Your misery has something entirely different to do with than your rationality, period.

Just as true as 2+2=4.

 

[Mr.Time]

^ You sound like a sensor, no offense, but you do.

I've met one theoretical mathematician, and he was RIDICULOUSLY BRILLIANT, and...

HAPPY, TOO!!!

Also, I've read quite a bit of Rudy Rucker, Rudy Rucker - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

^He seems like one happy and unique bloke, too!!!

I'm putting something down, here, not sure if you're able or willing to pick it up, though.

I don't think sensors spend too much time thinking about the meaning of life (as far as I know).

 

[Virtual ghost]

Why do you wake up in the morning, what motivates you to not kill yourself, Mr. Time?

At this level there is no motivation anymore. Especially since you no longer think in the terms of good or bad anymore.

Plus among everything you no longer think that you have a free will.(what changes all the rules) Neither do you really feel any joy or sorrow in life. You simply have your logic and dots you are connecting for the rest of your life. (and you can't really stop since your brain is doing it no matter what you think or feel about it)

As I said in some of my Ni threads : Ni is possbly the best feeling killer there is.

Which is becuse it focuses on things that are out side of "human realm". (what is a very long story/explanation so I will skip it)
In other words we don't care about having fun or enjoying life in any usual sense of the word. Especially since we undersand how pointless this approach is. I mean I am 25 I still haven't fall in love. (not even once)


To be honest with you I am not sure we can experiance it as majority does since our picture of the world has changed so much after years of thinking that we can't truly go back anymore. We simply can't start believing in ethics or national identity or "inser something down to earth" because our Ni is pointing out to us that this would be pointless or counter-productive.

However since some INTJs have strong Te they will try to enforce what their Ni has told them.



Feel free to accuse me that I am BSing. My ENFP mother does that for 20 years now. However the existance with very little Fi (or Fe) is possible and it is not unplesant as some people think.

 

[SillySapienne]

Infinity and the Mind - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

^Happy, delightfully challenging reading.

If you are interested in mathematics and the hard sciences, and you need a pick me up, and are, in deed, an INTJ, you will enjoy Rucker, very much.

Even a brilliant mind such as he, can show humility and humor, and relatedness to seemingly mundane things.

Rationals, in the MBTI sense, should be astounded by how much cool shit exists out there for us to discover, explore and understand.

 

[Mr.Time]

Maybe you would like reading Wittgenstein.

He was originally a philosopher of math, who tried to prove the foundation of mathematics.

Ultimately, like those who tried before him, he failed.

That being said, I'm not saying 2+2=/=4.

I'm just saying, at least to some extent (I'm not denying that the rules we've created make sense), it is so because we've defined what "2", "4", "addition" and "equalling" mean, and, when you play by those definitions and rules, then, yes, 2+2=4.

Regardless, the much more important question is: how do you move from "2+2=4" to "the universe is meaningless"?

Forget it! I can spend 12 hours writing a 25 page treatise on how I went from "2+2=4" to "the universe in meaningless" (and analyze all the possible "flaws" in my argument giving explanations to why these "flaws" seem to be logically consistent with the overall founding principles), but I don't have the energy or that kind of motivation. Let's just say I've studied plenty of physics, math, and astronomy (as a physics major) for me to come to many of my conclusions.

 

[Zarathustra]

At this level there is no motivation anymore. Especially since you no longer think in the terms of good or bad anymore.

Plus among everything you no longer think that you have a free will.(what changes all the rules) Neither do you really feel any joy or sorrow in life. You simply have your logic and dots you are connecting for the rest of your life. (and you can't really stop since your brain is doing it no matter what you think or feel about it)

As I said in some of my Ni threads : Ni is possbly the best feeling killer there is.

Which is becuse it focuses on things that are out side of "human realm". (what is a very long story/explanation so I will skip it)
In other words we don't care about having fun or enjoying life in any usual sense of the word. Especially since we undersand how pointless this approach is. I mean I am 25 I still haven't fall in love. (not even once)

To be honest with you I am not sure we can experiance it as majority does since our picture of the world has changed so much after years of thinking that we can't truly go back anymore. We simply can't start believing in ethics or national identity or "inser something down to earth" because our Ni is pointing out to us that this would be pointless or counter-productive.

However since some INTJs have strong Te they will try to enforce what their Ni has told them.

Feel free to accuse me that I am BSing. My ENFP mother does that for 20 years now. However the existance with very little Fi (or Fe) is possible and it is not unplesant as some people think.

Speak for yourself (i.e., stop using "we", cuz you don't speak for every Ni dom, nor INTJ).

I share almost none of these beliefs of yours.

I may have shared some of them at one point or another, but they are not simply the natural conclusions to which NiTe leads.

 

[SillySapienne]

At this level there is no motivation anymore. Especially since you no longer think in the terms of good or bad anymore.

Plus among everything you no longer think that you have a free will.(what changes all the rules) Neither do you really feel any joy or sorrow in life. You simply have your logic and dots you are connecting for the rest of your life. (and you can't really stop since your brain is doing it no matter what you think or feel about it)

As I said in some of my Ni threads : Ni is possbly the best feeling killer there is.

Which is becuse it focuses on things that are out side of "human realm". (what is a very long story/explanation so I will skip it)
In other words we don't care about having fun or enjoying life in any usual sense of the word. Especially since we undersand how pointless this approach is. I mean I am 25 I still haven't fall in love. (not even once)


To be honest with you I am not sure we can experiance it as majority does since our picture of the world has changed so much after years of thinking that we can't truly go back anymore. We simply can't start believing in ethics or national identity or "inser something down to earth" because our Ni is pointing out to us that this would be pointless or counter-productive.

However since some INTJs have strong Te they will try to enforce what their Ni has told them.



Feel free to accuse me that I am BSing. My ENFP mother does that for 20 years now. However the existance with very little Fi (or Fe) is possible and it is not unplesant as some people think.

I didn't fall in love until I was 25, and I was a hardcore skeptic, too.

I was hellbent in thinking that I could never find a man who would get me, and who would be as brilliant and special as I needed him to be.

I was wrong.

You have to let yourself be free, and open to the idea that love exists for us all, for the masses and for the eminent, it does not matter, love transcends social rank and status, it is there, and if you open your heart, and your eyes, you will find it.

 

[Zarathustra]

Forget it! I can spend 12 hours writing a 25 page treatise on how I went from "2+2=4" to "the universe in meaningless" (and analyze all the possible "flaws" in my argument giving explanations to why these "flaws" seem to be logically consistent with the overall founding principles), but I don't have the energy of that kind of motivation. Let's just say I've studied plenty of physics, math, and astronomy (as a physics major) for me to come to many of my conclusions.

That's fine.

Let me just tell you that I would poke a million little holes in your conclusion, showing why it's not logic, but your pre-conceived bias leading you to those beliefs.

 

[Virtual ghost]

Speak for yourself (i.e., stop using "we", cuz you don't speak for every Ni dom, nor INTJ).

I share almost none of these beliefs of yours.

I may have shared some of them at one point or another, but they are not simply the natural conclusions to which NiTe leads.

Correct, I was simply speaking from "I am Mr Time" perspective . So I used we. However I also don't relate that much with what I have said. But I am quite familiar with this prespective.

 

[Virtual ghost]

I didn't fall in love until I was 25, and I was a hardcore skeptic, too.

I was hellbent in thinking that I could never find a man who would get me, and who would be as brilliant and special as I needed him to be.

I was wrong.

You have to let yourself be free, and open to the idea that love exists for us all, for the masses and for the eminent, it does not matter, love transcends social rank and status, it is there, and if you open your heart, and your eyes, you will find it.

Actully I was just questioning its importance and our ability to experiance all levels of it.

 

[SillySapienne]

Actully I was just questioning its importance and our ability to experiance all levels of it.

Hahahahaa, this reminds me of a thread I wrote years ago, on a different forum entitled, "Misanthropes Need Love, Too!!!"



Are you lonely, do you hunger for love?

Companionship, understanding, acceptance?

If so, then love is, in fact, important for you.

Regarding the levels aspect to your question, that really depends on the person and the level of compatibility s/he finds with his/her respective mate.

 

[Virtual ghost]

Are you lonely, do you hunger for love?

Companionship, understanding, acceptance?

If so, then love is, in fact, important for you.

Regarding the levels aspect to your question, that really depends on the person and the level of compatibility s/he find with his/her respective mate.

I am alone but not lonely (when it comes to SO). I have spent too much time alone if life to trully be bothered by this.


However I am scaning the environemnt for a potential SO.

 

[stringstheory]

Well i LOVE my INTJ. I love having Js in my life in general because they keep me grounded and on task just by being them! When I have a strong J in my life, just seeing the way they operate makes me wish I could be as dedicated to one thing as they were (like school/career work), so I find myself trying to draw from that kind of energy, with a fair amount of success.

Also, I just love being the person that is able to draw people out of their shells. I don't know why but i love the feeling, and i have my way of getting to NTs.. I think partly because i just want so badly for EVERYONE to see the absolutely amazing individual that i am privileged to see (even though i know they reserve aspects of that individual for someone special). I also like strong Introverts because even though i get good use out of my E, at the end of the day my favourite thing to do is come home and spend "time alone together" with someone special, like just sitting on the computer, only speaking occasionally about some funny youtube video or something and then going back to our own thing. it's like that quote "you know you've found someone special when you can just shut the fuck up and enjoy the silence together"

So all in all, i've found INTJ to be a great combo for me

 

[SillySapienne]

I am alone but not lonely (when it comes to SO). I have spent too much time alone if life to trully be bothered by this.


However I am scaning the environemnt for a potential SO.

I spent nearly 10 years with a mate who was not only an only child, but a well-adjusted hyper-introvert. So I can understand, though not from personal experience, your first statement/stance. Hahaha, consider yourself lucky, in that regard!

Regarding your second statement, I, for one, find you charming and adorable in a very unique way.

I haven't seen pics of you, nor have I spoken to you in your native tongue, but if I was still single, you would definitely pique my curiosity.

In short, I think that there is hope for you in the l-o-v-e department.

 

[Zarathustra]

Well i LOVE my INTJ. I love having Js in my life in general because they keep me grounded and on task just by being them! When I have a strong J in my life, just seeing the way they operate makes me wish I could be as dedicated to one thing as they were (like school/career work), so I find myself trying to draw from that kind of energy, with a fair amount of success.

Also, I just love being the person that is able to draw people out of their shells. I don't know why but i love the feeling, and i have my way of getting to NTs.. I think because i just want so badly for EVERYONE to see the absolutely amazing individual that i am privileged to see (even though i know they reserve aspects of that individual for someone special). I also like strong Introverts because even though i get good use out of my E, at the end of the day my favourite thing to do is come home and spend "time alone together" with someone special, like just sitting on the computer, only speaking occasionally about some funny youtube video or something and then going back to our own thing. it's like that quote "you know you've found someone special when you can just shut the fuck up and enjoy the silence together"

So all in all, i've found INTJ to be a great combo for me

Silly and I are very similar.

ENFPs and INTJs definitely have a special connection.

 

[SillySapienne]

Well i LOVE my INTJ. I love having Js in my life in general because they keep me grounded and on task just by being them! When I have a strong J in my life, just seeing the way they operate makes me wish I could be as dedicated to one thing as they were (like school/career work), so I find myself trying to draw from that kind of energy, with a fair amount of success.

I love my INTJ, too.

He absolutely keeps me grounded, and I have told him many times that he's my anchor in the swirling chaotic clusterfuck called life.

Also, he does motivate me to do things I wouldn't normally do. (I'm a hardcore EP, prone to lazy self-indulgence and hedonistic, aimless bouts of wanting to taste/touch/know everything and everyone, and every aspect out there that the universe has to offer).

Perfect example, he got my ass out of bed at 6:45 this morning, I hated him for it, at first, but so far, our day has gone on sublimely, and I, for one, have accomplished and enjoyed a lot, thanks to him. (If I were left to my own devices, I'd probably still be in bed, right now. )

Also, I just love being the person that is able to draw people out of their shells. I don't know why, but i love the feeling of getting someone to open up to me like they've never done before, and i have my way of getting to NTs. I also like strong Introverts because even though i get good use out of my E, at the end of the day my favourite thing to do is come home and spend "time alone together" with someone special, like just sitting on the computer, only speaking occasionally about some funny youtube video or something and then going back to our own thing. it's like that quote "you know you've found someone special when you can just shut the fuck up and enjoy the silence together"

^ YOU SPEAK TRUTH!!!

 

[stringstheory]

Silly and I are very similar.

ENFPs and INTJs definitely have a special connection.

Same for me and my partner; i find it interesting that for how incredibly different ENFP/INTJ appear on the outside, in my experience we've usually ended up being very similar on deeper levels.

 

[Ivy]

Lex Talionis, Silly Sapienne, and Zarathustra are all banned from this thread, at least for the time being. Bickering and insults stop now, from all parties.