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[ENFP] ENFP+INTJ=Disasterous Combo o' love

onemoretime

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I stand by the way I think, but it was wrong to attack your credibility. Do you agree that its wrong to attack others credibility?

Clearly. Otherwise, I wouldn't have made an issue of it.

And don't flip this around to be about Fi. The two areas are not directly comparable.
 

Poki

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Clearly. Otherwise, I wouldn't have made an issue of it.

And don't flip this around to be about Fi. The two areas are not directly comparable.

Of course not, its about Ti :newwink:

edit: and in all honesty I wasnt taking it down that Fi road intentionally.
 

sculpting

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One last thing, which I want to take out of the context of prior discussions and have it in its own context: the source of NiTe arrogance. It may be difficult to believe, but INTJs are really very unsure of themselves, we lack confidence, and in general would really rather hang back and be unobtrusive and observe and learn. The INTJ is very afraid of saying something wrong. Yet, Ni eventually comes to understand certain things very well. Extremely well, even. The INTJ becomes a true expert. (Immature INTJs can believe that one is an expert when it is far from the truth ... that's a different matter, that does not contradict the point I am making here.) For those things in which the INTJ is a true expert, a different personae appears, however briefly, when an issue to which the expertise pertains arises. We just know we are correct, our knowledge and understanding has been tested, perhaps for years or even decades. We also know what we do not know, and we don't make assertions on that.

What is this persona in function speak? How are you certain the idea is correct? What do you measure it's validity by?

EXTPs appear to measure the validity of our Xi feelings/ideas by our Si history of feeling/idea deployment.

When you carry on ideas and conversations in your head-with Ni-does the other person speak as well? It sounds like they involve Te being deployed internally in an Ni intuition? I ask as I think ENFPs do something kinda like this, but backwards wrt to Fi-Si constructs.
 

Poki

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Clearly. Otherwise, I wouldn't have made an issue of it.

And don't flip this around to be about Fi. The two areas are not directly comparable.

The whole reason I started this was because you inadvertently killed the credibility of internal logic itself with the bolded statement. I simply turned your logic in on itself until it imploded. Next time I will call you out in a PM.

So for xxTPs, when their logic is questioned, they will use their extraverted perceiving function to manipulate the variables to justify their internal logic structure, while being less inclined to dismiss that structure itself. Ne will do this in the abstract realm, while Se will do this in the concrete realm. So you have the xNTPs who manipulate abstractions externally (theories, inventions, legal arguments) to justify an internal conception, and the xSTPs who manipulate objects externally (sports, combat, social interactions) to justify an internal conception.
 

onemoretime

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The whole reason I started this was because you inadvertently killed the credibility of internal logic itself with the bolded statement. I simply turned your logic in on itself until it imploded. Next time I will call you out in a PM.

No you didn't. You're interpreting it in a way that discredits me, because you don't view me as a credible commentator on this. That's fine. That doesn't mean what I said was invalid. What you're not realizing is that the internal logic structure may not be wrong. That the variables have to be manipulated, because they're rotated in the wrong position in the first place! Do you finish a puzzle by maintaining all the pieces in the position they come out of the box? Of course not. You manipulate the pieces! In much the same way, Ne and Se bring an image of what the goal is into their head. Ti figures out how to manipulate the puzzle pieces of reality to bring that image into fruition. This can be very concrete (athletics, hunting), or very abstract (engineering, theory).

Get it now?
 

uumlau

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What is this persona in function speak? How are you certain the idea is correct? What do you measure it's validity by?

EXTPs appear to measure the validity of our Xi feelings/ideas by our Si history of feeling/idea deployment.

When you carry on ideas and conversations in your head-with Ni-does the other person speak as well? It sounds like they involve Te being deployed internally in an Ni intuition? I ask as I think ENFPs do something kinda like this, but backwards wrt to Fi-Si constructs.

It's still Ni/Te, but the difference is where before understanding had not yet been achieved, now one has achieved understanding, to the point that we're rather sure that we're not incorrect. Also to clarify, I'm not talking about stating half-assed opinions for the sake of argument, but rather such a full and deep understanding that when one says something, others are surprised at the depth of knowledge in play, and are either amazed at the accuracy and insight or are intimidated by it. Like watching a figure skater at the Olympics, what you don't see is all the days/weeks/months of effort that went into being able to do that, you don't see all the effort, the raw experience, skill and training, that the INTJ put into his statement.

Moreover, the INTJ is stating that which is obvious to him. He did all the hard work a long while ago, when you weren't looking, and now it is time to act, bringing that "J" into play. The idea was tested over and over and over, in his head and in real world observations, and then was carefully stored as an Ni functional pattern (functional is in the kind of idea, not Jungian function). That "in his head" testing is sort of the "inner conversation" thing you mention, but more accurately it's running multiple scenarios, in a "quality assurance" kind of way. We keep trying out ideas and discarding the ones that "don't work." Again, it's all functional ... it isn't about true/false, but workable/unworkable. Does the plan get me from point A to point B, for example. The few ideas that get past this test, are tested against the real world.

So by the time he's talking about it, the idea or plan or whatever has already existed a long while, except it's stored in Ni, not Si (as would be the case for ISTJ). When he explains it, he doesn't have to figure out how to explain it, because it's already been tossed back and forth between Ni and Te for a while. He's explained it to himself many times already, and edited it so that is clear and understandable, especially if it requires explaining to others.

So it isn't a different Jungian function rearing its head, it's the same ones as before, only now it's in play. Perhaps your observations w/r to Se might apply, that once it is time to present the idea to others, Se gives the INTJ a great deal of presence that he doesn't normally have. He is now about being active and doing things and executing the plan, not discussing or debating. I imagine that many others, for whom the plan or issue might appear to be very new, will resent the manner of presentation and find it overbearing, feeling like they have little say, because the INTJ has already answered all of their objections in his head, long ago (he thought of the objections first!). Hence, the arrogance.
 

sculpting

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Togetherness is a thing of beauty, a gift regardless of how we choose to describe it in our jungian terms.

Our words, our thoughts, our eyes, our hands, our ways of showing love will differ, our minds, our souls, how we see the world and what we choose to become in it, what part we play in our theoretical realities will endlessly confuse us...

however the end result- to not be alone on our paths, to be part of something larger, to hold each other against the dark night,

these are our common destinations.

:hug:
 

gromit

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If anyone is interested, I started a new thread! I tried to put in everyones comments, I hope I got them all...
 

gromit

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Togetherness is a thing of beauty, a gift regardless of how we choose to describe it in our jungian terms.

Our words, our thoughts, our eyes, our hands, our ways of showing love will differ, our minds, our souls, how we see the world and what we choose to become in it, what part we play in our theoretical realities will endlessly confuse us...

however the end result- to not be alone on our paths, to be part of something larger, to hold each other against the dark night,

these are our common destinations.

:hug:

You are so beautiful!!!
 

Kalach

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How are you certain the idea is correct? What do you measure it's validity by?

It's not an idea, it's an intuition. And that intuition is cultivated in an extraverted thinking environment. The measure then is not validity so much as, "will this be real?"

Validity is for those suckers still hamstrung by the subjectivity of truth.



That perhaps answers the question of how one can be certain too: here's the intuition, where's the framework, there it is, where's the subjectivity, there isn't any, good to know, go for it.
 

sculpting

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The idea was tested over and over and over, in his head and in real world observations, and then was carefully stored as an Ni functional pattern (functional is in the kind of idea, not Jungian function). That "in his head" testing is sort of the "inner conversation" thing you mention, but more accurately it's running multiple scenarios, in a "quality assurance" kind of way. We keep trying out ideas and discarding the ones that "don't work." Again, it's all functional ... it isn't about true/false, but workable/unworkable. Does the plan get me from point A to point B, for example. The few ideas that get past this test, are tested against the real world.

This sort of seems like it parallels how I develop ideas-except I externalize them to others over and over again, to refine them-and likely affirm them. I will stumble across an Ne connection, link to several other previously observed connections, then build a functional pattern. Then I bring it here and just keep dropping it in places on various threads hoping for feedback or I will work with my ENTP to identify flaws. I am very often wrong-but I need that external feedback to help me understand how I am wrong. I cant do what you do in your head-the quality assurance.

Internally, I take the pattern and just keep cross checking it against newly observed patterns. So every idea I have really needs a percentage certainty added. In addition the ideas are never, ever complete. The are skeletons that-sort of like those graphs of mandlebrot sets-can be endlessly refined downwards with new patterns in old patterns. The first pattern can be built into larger patterns.

One of my most trusted patterns is the "ENXP Symmetry Model". This means that every thing I see an ENTP can be back predicted onto what an ENFP would do and visa-versa, but the action will be reflected in reverse via the two judging functions. Sounds cute until you find yourself looking at your own flaws-flaws you never knew you had till you found an ENTP's flaws. You learn a lot that way.

So this model gets a 95% certainty score. An ESXP Symmetry model gets a 85% certainty. An INXJ Symmetry model-A 30%-it should be there but I dont have data and I dont understand introverts and I dont understand how Ni...Thus it sits as a puzzle simmering over in the corner. Yet I will still externalize the possibility.

So by the time he's talking about it, the idea or plan or whatever has already existed a long while, except it's stored in Ni, not Si (as would be the case for ISTJ). When he explains it, he doesn't have to figure out how to explain it, because it's already been tossed back and forth between Ni and Te for a while. He's explained it to himself many times already, and edited it so that is clear and understandable, especially if it requires explaining to others.

I dont like having to externalize ideas, but I suppose that's the i/e diff. I keep going back to the same place-how do you know the "conversation" has covered all possibilities? How do you know there is no neglected dust mite in the corner? Since it doesnt seem you guys can "see" the Fe conversations, how can you be certain they will not interfere with plan-or it sounds like maybe you learn to account for them as you grow, without ever really understanding them?
 

Poki

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No you didn't. You're interpreting it in a way that discredits me, because you don't view me as a credible commentator on this. That's fine. That doesn't mean what I said was invalid. What you're not realizing is that the internal logic structure may not be wrong. That the variables have to be manipulated, because they're rotated in the wrong position in the first place! Do you finish a puzzle by maintaining all the pieces in the position they come out of the box? Of course not. You manipulate the pieces! In much the same way, Ne and Se bring an image of what the goal is into their head. Ti figures out how to manipulate the puzzle pieces of reality to bring that image into fruition. This can be very concrete (athletics, hunting), or very abstract (engineering, theory).

Get it now?

Why is it that you know you best, yet you also seem to know me best?

And I do not have images that I manipulate reality to bring into fruition. That sounds chart the course. Here is an example of how I work. When I play chess I do not go more then 2-3 moves ahead. It physically drains me to attempt to go any further because of the way I work. Its actually entertaining in person when I do something without even thinking in chess and the person sits there trying to figure out why I did that. If there are to many pieces on the board I will purposely start allowing you to eat my players so I can eat yours and remove alot of game pieces and bring the game into my realm of expertise.

If you would like to take this to a PM feel free as almost everything I say will cause you to lose credibility. I cant change the way I piece things together and you have not given me any more information that would allow me to think differently.
 

Poki

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The idea was tested over and over and over, in his head and in real world observations, and then was carefully stored as an Ni functional pattern (functional is in the kind of idea, not Jungian function). That "in his head" testing is sort of the "inner conversation" thing you mention, but more accurately it's running multiple scenarios, in a "quality assurance" kind of way. We keep trying out ideas and discarding the ones that "don't work." Again, it's all functional ... it isn't about true/false, but workable/unworkable. Does the plan get me from point A to point B, for example. The few ideas that get past this test, are tested against the real world.

I run in so many circles when I do this. I think teamed with Ti it creates a logical loop of true/false vs workable/unworkable. I am really starting to work on recognizing this when it happens and escape. I may have problems because I am not using it to go from point A to point B. Its used as a mechanism to understand how we got from point A to point B and if the situation did not work between 2 people no matter how much I analyze what happened with Ni it will always come out as unworkable since I am simply analyzing what happened. An ENFP helped me greatly to recognize this and how to escape from this defense mechanism. Some people naturally push you into your defense mechanism and if what they did to push you there does not allow your defense mechanism to work and they dont know how to get you out of it everything falls apart.

Ni teamed with Ti work really good to understand things that actually work though and is where I am trying to focus it right now.
 

Waffle

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Holy moly, I haven't been on in a couple weeks due to school and life craziness, but I never expected this thread to still be alive, and especially not get to 112 pages.

...Did someone change my thread title? :laugh:
 

Poki

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Holy moly, I haven't been on in a couple weeks due to school and life craziness, but I never expected this thread to still be alive, and especially not get to 101 pages.

...Did someone change my thread title? :laugh:

This one got so derailed that Amar graciously created another thread to help discuss it further.

NFP-NTJ Dynamic
 

onemoretime

Dreaming the life
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Why is it that you know you best, yet you also seem to know me best?

And I do not have images that I manipulate reality to bring into fruition. That sounds chart the course. Here is an example of how I work. When I play chess I do not go more then 2-3 moves ahead. It physically drains me to attempt to go any further because of the way I work. Its actually entertaining in person when I do something without even thinking in chess and the person sits there trying to figure out why I did that. If there are to many pieces on the board I will purposely start allowing you to eat my players so I can eat yours and remove alot of game pieces and bring the game into my realm of expertise.

If you would like to take this to a PM feel free as almost everything I say will cause you to lose credibility. I cant change the way I piece things together and you have not given me any more information that would allow me to think differently.

Everything I'm saying is true for me. You're making it seem like because it works for me, because my Ne-colored Ti works in a certain way, that it's not truly Ti. That's what's aggravating! You have no basis for making that sort of claim. When I'm making assertions about you back at you, it's because I'm purposely using Ti as a weapon to defend myself. It's competitive.

Nothing you say will make me lose credibility, because you don't have that level of authority to make such determinations.
 

Poki

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Everything I'm saying is true for me. You're making it seem like because it works for me, because my Ne-colored Ti works in a certain way, that it's not truly Ti. That's what's aggravating! You have no basis for making that sort of claim. When I'm making assertions about you back at you, it's because I'm purposely using Ti as a weapon to defend myself. It's competitive.

Nothing you say will make me lose credibility, because you don't have that level of authority to make such determinations.

Then why did I offend you?
 

Kalach

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A:
I keep going back to the same place-how do you know the "conversation" has covered all possibilities? How do you know there is no neglected dust mite in the corner?
B:
Since it doesnt seem you guys can "see" the Fe conversations, how can you be certain they will not interfere with plan-or it sounds like maybe you learn to account for them as you grow, without ever really understanding them?


A: why would you ask?
B: what?

We're not idiot person readers, nor automatons. If something is a project of importance--well, if something is not a project of importance, we're not likely to be there doing it, are we? So we're walking around wondering why someone would choose to fuck with a project of substance and value? Seriously, it's a worthwhile operating procedure to assume other persons are persons of ill will?

There you go, Fe users. We don't make contingency plans against you because we assume you're not the kind of fuckup that destroys for the sake of it.


Gawd, people. Srsly.
 

Poki

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A:

B:



A: why would you ask?
B: what?

We're not idiot person readers, nor automatons. If something is a project of importance--well, if something is not a project of importance, we're not likely to be there doing it, are we? So we're walking around wondering why someone would choose to fuck with a project of substance and value? Seriously, it's a worthwhile operating procedure to assume other persons are persons of ill will?

There you go, Fe users. We don't make contingency plans against you because we assume you're not the kind of fuckup that destroys for the sake of it.


Gawd, people. Srsly.

Here is an example of ENTP Fe and NFP Fi at work in the same context.

Fe from ENTP - Brings what I did to the attention of managers so I can gain recognition for my efforts and knowledge since I work in the background 99% of the time.

Fi from NFP - Brings attention of how helpful I am to managers because she knows about something I am stressing about and knows that it would help me emotionally.

Fi wants to support you emotionally

Fe wants to support your position in the hierarchy

Both have the same effect but different intentions. The context of each situation in regards to the words said, how it came about, when it came about, etc. allows me to determine the difference in intention without asking the person why.
 
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