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[ENFP] ENFP+INTJ=Disasterous Combo o' love

onemoretime

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How do I know how you are manipulating MBTI to prove your internal logic?

Yes, you hit a button.

Because MBTI isn't correlative with anything in reality, and I'm merely using its language as a template to explain my ideas on how these things work.
 

onemoretime

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I'm talking about the speed at which Xi processes something new vs the speed at which Xe processes something new.

Yes, for INTJ, Ni "gets there first", and for an INTP Ti is "instantaneous" in cases where the knowledge is already correct and there are no conflicts.

In conflict resolution, the Xi function is always slower at resolving the issue than Xe, because the Xi function has to do something other than the "same old same old." Database analogy: I can run existing queries quickly, but it takes me a while to write a new query.

When I said Ti was instantaneous, I meant that a preliminary logical framework is already thrown together at the start. It's constantly reworked as new information comes in. Remember, Ti cares about whether it works or not, and not so much whether it's true/correct or not. Conflict resolution.
 

sculpting

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This is kinda where I sit. I have no drive to be part of the social hierarchy, but enjoy the challenge of attemping to topple the strong. Its not done to move up in the ladder, but to make sure the person that is trying to put himself on top deserves to be on top. I am generally the person in the background waiting for someone to challenge. I enjoy the challenge, not to win, but for the experience and the knowledge I get.

ISTPa strike me as the ultimate hunter. It makes sense that you would endlessly challenge the other hunters to sharpen skill sets. The other comments you said about wanting to help as well-I see those in my istp. It is of great significance I think.

What does Se "look like" to you in an INTJ?
What does Ne "look like" to you in an ISTJ?

Another diff-something about the eyes-not the direction-the muscle use around the eyes.

Ne is usually in outer space just starring off at nothing. Si is watching you but really looking inside. Ni is slack jawed absentness and Se is actually watching you.

An ISTJ looks at you, but is really looking inside at Si-thus the eyes are softer-even if they are trying to dominate via Te.
An INTJ uses lots of TeSe, thus looks very dominating much of the time AT YOU. The gaze is much more intense, and can be taken as angry.
An INTJ looks at you with Se

I've put together some thoughts on Te/Fi vs Fe/Ti, based on our discussions here and first principles. This is still hypothesis, but it seems to fit in with prior observations.

Fi:
ego is emotion
processes feelings slowly

Ti:
ego is intellect
processes ideas slowly

"slowly" != stupid or inept, but rather slowly == carefully
ego == how easily one may feel "attacked" by disagreement (in the realm of that judging function) So Fi will never feel attacked by logic, but only by values/emotion. Analogously, Ti will feel attacked by disrespect for one's ability to reason, and not by emotion/values. In both cases, Je handles the other judging style "objectively", and while disagreements may occur, they "don't feel like attacks".

Just for those poor folks still hanging on the thread looking for INTJ:ENFP advice-Ne doms seek social affirmation. We are offering out "gift", our ideas or our feelings back to the other. To reject the emotional offering of an ENFP or reject the ability to create new ideas for an ENTP is agonizing and a very nasty blow.

on a side note, its fun to watch an Fi user try to protect Fi that doesnt exist on the other end, its revealing ;)

We are just trying to take care of you!!! Your Fe reminds me a bit of my Fi-it's a bit like a little kid's. It doesnt play all of the games a grown up Fe does. It brings out my nurturing side. :)
 

Kalach

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Is this TRUE????

:shock::doh:

No. But I'm not sure why. Something about OMT applying across the board the values inherent in any Ti system, namely that all truth is subjective. The application of this value is being made too broadly. Broadly enough in fact that likely under this regime, e functions don't actually exist. (Well, they do, but as a veil of images and sensations thrown up before the "eyes" of consciousness, not as actual direct(ish) links to a real world.)


Or something.
 

onemoretime

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No. But I'm not sure why. Something about OMT applying across the board the values inherent in any Ti system, namely that all truth is subjective. The application of this value is being made too broadly. Broadly enough in fact that likely under this regime, e functions don't actually exist. (Well, they do, but as a veil of images and sensations thrown up before the "eyes" of consciousness, not as actual direct(ish) links to a real world.)


Or something.

Is it untrue, or does it possibly being true bother you?
 

uumlau

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No. But I'm not sure why. Something about OMT applying across the board the values inherent in any Ti system, namely that all truth is subjective. The application of this value is being made too broadly. Broadly enough in fact that likely under this regime, e functions don't actually exist. (Well, they do, but as a veil of images and sensations thrown up before the "eyes" of consciousness, not as actual direct(ish) links to a real world.)


Or something.

In other words, Kalach is saying that OMT is phrasing what he says in "Fe/Ti language", for lack of better better way to describe it.

Is it untrue, or does it possibly being true bother you?

No, OMT. Usually, it will be the crosstalk at play. When I evaluate what you wrote in a Ti way, I see the logic, and it all fits together. When I translate into Ni/Te terms, it falls apart, especially when comparing in a Te way with empirical reality. I suspect our (that's "your and my", OMT, not Jungian functions') internal models are different enough that adequate translation is difficult. They may be in agreement, but certain turns of phrase can easily make a true statement in one model sound patently false in the other.

Also notice how your reply is phrased. You don't ask how it's unclear, or express an interest in how Kalach is interpreting it ... you instead ascribe to Kalach a motivation to not want it to be true. That kind of language is a good example of what does not translate well into Te/Fi terms, and can lead to unconstructive disagreement because it violates Fi boundaries.
 

Poki

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ISTPa strike me as the ultimate hunter. It makes sense that you would endlessly challenge the other hunters to sharpen skill sets. The other comments you said about wanting to help as well-I see those in my istp. It is of great significance I think.

I have had this wanting to help since I was little. I realized young that I cannot help everyone with the problem at hand and that sometimes if you can just get them to enjoy themselves and do what will allow people to relax it helps.

We are just trying to take care of you!!! Your Fe reminds me a bit of my Fi-it's a bit like a little kid's. It doesnt play all of the games a grown up Fe does. It brings out my nurturing side. :)

I refuse to play those adult games unless I have to, I do like playing different mind games with people though. I have no desire to grow up, life is about having fun. To many grown ups stuck in a rut trying to find a purpose and a drive. Kids are like sponges, when we grow up we have this drive to be thought as "knowledgable" and we can easily push an image and lose the sponge like mentality. We have this drive to grow up and knowledge is a "marker" of being a grown up. When we dont feel knowledgable we dont feel like we are of use in society and causes us to try to find our calling. I enjoy being a sponge, knowledge is just a side affect ;) I dont have an "idealist" mentality so I leverage others ideals and wants to give me direction in what I learn.

In regards to Fe heirarchy, the only times it really bothers me is when I lose my image to the point of being shunned by it, I dont care where I sit. I am known for who I am and what I do on a personal level, not by where I sit in this heirarchy. That is my image that I push for, not a societal image.

Is it untrue, or does it possibly being true bother you?

For me its that in parts of the xxTP you propogate something I am not. Remember I am Fe, I do care somewhat about my social image and on here it has a much bigger effect then in real life. Some people like to label and have a "set" traits they apply to that label. I mentioned in one post about rose colored glasses. Labels can apply these glasses prematurely in certain people and cause a distortion based on an abstract label. Simple things like "man" and "woman" is an abstract label. So when your label is wrong in a context that tends to raise these labels up even more it does rub me the wrong way.

/Ti rant :D
 

gromit

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I usually find myself dating men who are more like INFJ/ISFJ (?) or something, and it usally ends up terribly. We both end up getting really needy and angst-y and insecure.

Part of me would really like to try dating INTJ men, and part of me suspects that this is the only type of person who could withstand the full emotional and intellectual force of my being. I am always feeling like I need to hold back. However, if I have ever known any (INTJ men), I have felt too intimidated to approach them or even show any interest. I have a couple INTJ women friends, and I love them dearly. They see and understand parts of me like nobody else seems to be able to, and I love them like I love no one else because of that.

So I see potential, but somehow, romantically (i.e. with men), it's really scary. I don't know how to approach it at all. Any ideas? Or, if there's a portion of the topic that already discusses this, could somebody point me to it? I began to read through but only got to about page 10.


What boondocked described, that - as Alanis Morissette would say - intellectual intercourse, actually sounds so wonderful. Sigh...

I loved his brilliant, idiosyncratic brain, the fascinating bends and turns of it. I loved how precise it was, whereas my brain is so wishy washy and impressionistic. And he made me laugh harder than anyone ever had. He was just so bright, so sharp. He liked my abstractions and theories and how I expressed myself, from the way I phrased things to my over-emotive facial expressions :rolli: We both just found the whole thing unbelievably exciting
 

Poki

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Also notice how your reply is phrased. You don't ask how it's unclear, or express an interest in how Kalach is interpreting it ... you instead ascribe to Kalach a motivation to not want it to be true. That kind of language is a good example of what does not translate well into Te/Fi terms, and can lead to unconstructive disagreement because it violates Fi boundaries.

From a Ti standpoint his wording or the way he went about it didnt bother me because its wrong and he is jumping to conclusions. Ti prickly, we use this sometimes to bring out truth. I see how this is used and I choose if I want to reply or not. The trick is to hit someone in a way they dont want to be percieved. Its fun when someone tries this in a manner you dont care about. Or in a manner that is obviously not who you are.
 

uumlau

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Another diff-something about the eyes-not the direction-the muscle use around the eyes.

Ne is usually in outer space just starring off at nothing. Si is watching you but really looking inside. Ni is slack jawed absentness and Se is actually watching you.

An ISTJ looks at you, but is really looking inside at Si-thus the eyes are softer-even if they are trying to dominate via Te.
An INTJ uses lots of TeSe, thus looks very dominating much of the time AT YOU. The gaze is much more intense, and can be taken as angry.
An INTJ looks at you with Se
Interesting. I like how you've analyzed the INTJ "death stare." I'll need to think about it for a bit. I think the key is, as you point out, Si vs Se, that the INTJ is more likely to be "present" in his gaze.

The funny thing is, we don't realize we're doing it, most of the time:
"Why are you so angry?!"
"I'm not angry."
"Yes you are. And you're staring at me."
"I am? Sorry. But no, I'm not angry. I'm just thinking."
"What are you thinking about that is making you so angry?"
"I'm not angry. I'm just working out a problem in my head. I'm not angry. Scratch that, you're starting to make me angry ..."

The main thing I've noticed that is common is that INTJs as a rule have schooled themselves not to emote, because of exchanges like the above. When we're young, our Ni probably comes out as slack-jawed unawareness of the world around us. But there's something else going on, too. We have all of these thoughts and musings going on, sort of planning, sort of daydreaming, sort of hypothesizing. And we react to them as if they were "real." This sends out all sorts of false emotional signals because we're not reacting to the outer world, but the inner world.

As you note, the result isn't "slack jawed" Ni but "fully present" Se. That's because we're focusing very hard on not reacting to anything, because 90% of the time, we'd just react to what's in our head (Ni), and express it outwardly (Se). I suspect that angry/focused/dominating stare is simply the outward expression of the inner focus not to say anything stupid.
 

Poki

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Because MBTI isn't correlative with anything in reality, and I'm merely using its language as a template to explain my ideas on how these things work.

This only works though when people hold its language concrete, which even something as simple as a defintion can be percieved differently across people. Sometimes you have to learn to seperate from the "external" language and jump into someone elses internal language. So while you may agree on the wording of something you may be talking about different things. Or you may disagree over wording yet both understand the same thing.

Some people like "external" language being concrete and others try to learn the "internal" language of someone else.
 

uumlau

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Part of me would really like to try dating INTJ men, and part of me suspects that this is the only type of person who could withstand the full emotional and intellectual force of my being. I am always feeling like I need to hold back. However, if I have ever known any (INTJ men), I have felt too intimidated to approach them or even show any interest.

...

So I see potential, but somehow, romantically (i.e. with men), it's really scary. I don't know how to approach it at all. Any ideas? Or, if there's a portion of the topic that already discusses this, could somebody point me to it? I began to read through but only got to about page 10.

Only reading up to page 10 is OK. This is what the thread is really about anyway ... we've been discussing some other tangents.

How to approach an INTJ guy? He's more scared of you than you are of him.

Use your strengths. Just be yourself in front of him. Trust me on this. He will totally get you. Then the hard part: you have to initiate, because he will be too scared to do so. You have to make it bluntly obvious that you like him and want to do something (lunch, a date, whatever) with him. Mostly, though, you'll get to know him because you'll be yourself in front of him, and he'll learn he can be himself in front of you. That's the attraction: as long as there are no odd cultural or value differences, it's easy for each to be into each other. INTJ loves the sparkly, quirky, interesting ENFP personality, and ENFP loves that this calm super-intellectual INTJ takes her as she is. We admire and secretly wish that we could be like the other, but we just aren't.

So, if you have an INTJ guy in mind, and you're interested, just go and play. As long as you allow each other to be naturally ENFP and INTJ, it will work. If you start demanding that he be "more ENFP" or he tries to get you to behave "more INTJ", it will start to break down. The boundary is, I believe, best defined by what MBTI covers: it's fully OK to call the other out on bad behavior, period; it isn't OK to try to change the others' preferences to suit oneself.
 

digesthisickness

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i fully agree with the above post. also, i think this particular topic deserves its own thread.
 

onemoretime

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No, OMT. Usually, it will be the crosstalk at play. When I evaluate what you wrote in a Ti way, I see the logic, and it all fits together. When I translate into Ni/Te terms, it falls apart, especially when comparing in a Te way with empirical reality. I suspect our (that's "your and my", OMT, not Jungian functions') internal models are different enough that adequate translation is difficult. They may be in agreement, but certain turns of phrase can easily make a true statement in one model sound patently false in the other.

Also notice how your reply is phrased. You don't ask how it's unclear, or express an interest in how Kalach is interpreting it ... you instead ascribe to Kalach a motivation to not want it to be true. That kind of language is a good example of what does not translate well into Te/Fi terms, and can lead to unconstructive disagreement because it violates Fi boundaries.

I made my statement. It's up to you to take it or leave it. If you leave it, the burden's on you at that point to tell me why. You mentioned earlier growing fatigued at when it seems like you do all the work for Ti. This is the same sort of situation. I don't want to have to do the work for you in figuring out why you disagree with what I say. I'm more interested in what you disagree with, and why you disagree with it. That you simply disagree with it is essentially useless information.

For me its that in parts of the xxTP you propogate something I am not. Remember I am Fe, I do care somewhat about my social image and on here it has a much bigger effect then in real life. Some people like to label and have a "set" traits they apply to that label. I mentioned in one post about rose colored glasses. Labels can apply these glasses prematurely in certain people and cause a distortion based on an abstract label. Simple things like "man" and "woman" is an abstract label. So when your label is wrong in a context that tends to raise these labels up even more it does rub me the wrong way.

/Ti rant :D

Yeah... I'm looking at it with the bias that Ti generally handles abstract information in my experience. Of course it doesn't follow your experience exactly; that much should be so obvious that it isn't even worth mentioning. At that point, it's better for you, rather than accepting or rejecting it forthright, to modify what I'm saying or add your experiential understanding to it, because for me, it absolutely is true. I understand that it may not be true for you. To say that I'm wrong is to accuse me of lying to you.

This only works though when people hold its language concrete, which even something as simple as a defintion can be percieved differently across people. Sometimes you have to learn to seperate from the "external" language and jump into someone elses internal language. So while you may agree on the wording of something you may be talking about different things. Or you may disagree over wording yet both understand the same thing.

Some people like "external" language being concrete and others try to learn the "internal" language of someone else.

It doesn't work that way. I'm not speaking to an individual on an open thread. I'm speaking to that person and everyone else who reads this thread. Trying to speak that person's internal language in that context would be incomprehensible to everyone else reading the thread, making my post essentially useless. I'll be happy to personalize my approach in a PM or other non-public forum, but in threads, I'm going to talk as if I'm addressing the world... because I am.
 

gromit

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He's more scared of you than you are of him.

INTJ loves the sparkly, quirky, interesting ENFP personality...

Well, I don't know why, but it's really difficult for me to believe this. Probably on some level I can conceive of it, but I just can't seem to wrap my mind/self around it entirely. I would just imagine that "he" (since there is no specific one right now, though a couple have caught my attention in the past) would have no use for someone like me, would see me as a purely fluffy sparkles person, or would want someone who isn't such a spaz, emotionally or in terms of thought processes, even. I am a thoughtful and intelligent person, but I just also like fun things and silly things and even dumb things.


I don't know... it's easy to tell yourself to just be yourself, but it's really difficult to do when it's a situation that is intimidating.
 

sculpting

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When we're young, our Ni probably comes out as slack-jawed unawareness of the world around us. But there's something else going on, too. We have all of these thoughts and musings going on, sort of planning, sort of daydreaming, sort of hypothesizing. And we react to them as if they were "real." This sends out all sorts of false emotional signals because we're not reacting to the outer world, but the inner world.

Ah at INTJc they talked about actually sometimes making facial gestures and such. And whole conversations with yourselves?

Also-what is your typical perspective of ISTJs? My favorite ISTJ just got utterly screwed via the judgment of an INTJ. Trying to understand why.

Part of me would really like to try dating INTJ men, and part of me suspects that this is the only type of person who could withstand the full emotional and intellectual force of my being. I am always feeling like I need to hold back. However, if I have ever known any (INTJ men), I have felt too intimidated to approach them or even show any interest. I have a couple INTJ women friends, and I love them dearly. They see and understand parts of me like nobody else seems to be able to, and I love them like I love no one else because of that.

What boondocked described, that - as Alanis Morissette would say - intellectual intercourse, actually sounds so wonderful. Sigh...

i fully agree with the above post. also, i think this particular topic deserves its own thread.

Ahhhh intellectual intercourse!!! See digest-that's what we are up to in this thread. It's better than online sex. I find it delightful. (I miss your little smoking girl avatar.) Gromit you might try online INTJ chatting. At INTJc, they say they are more talkative online then in real life. And yes they can handle our emo quite well. Total honesty?? I think so.

Also notice how your reply is phrased. You don't ask how it's unclear, or express an interest in how Kalach is interpreting it ... you instead ascribe to Kalach a motivation to not want it to be true. That kind of language is a good example of what does not translate well into Te/Fi terms, and can lead to unconstructive disagreement because it violates Fi boundaries.

There is something very legitimate here. You have to just hold my hand and trust me, I cant convince you of the below, just explain my observations and have you understand they may be highly subjective.

I cheated with Fe when I was terribly depressed and found myself terribly flawed. I found I could find Fe. Not just brush it or use it in a shadow sense but really deeply fall into it and quench Fi. I spent a couple of weeks doing this. I could do it now if I tried-meaning actual hard work honestly, like 30 minutes of meditation-but it makes me a different person. I JUDGE things differently. The world looks different.

One thing I noticed. When conversing with Fe users my mind would use different sets of words-very soft pleasing words, group words. I didnt decide to do this-it just happened. But at the end of each sentence I would complete the thought in my head and ascribe motivations or harsher judgments to the person talking. "Spoken: Now we will all work as a team (Unspoken: Because bob didnt really complete his work)"

With Fe users this works amazingly well. Suddenly I felt like I was hearing pieces of conversations I had never heard before. It was really nice to "fit in" and not feel like I was a social outcast. I "understood" the unspoken social rules.

Once while playing with Fe I found myself talking to an ISTJ at work. Good guy.

He was talking to me about my best friend. He said " Well SL has a list of things to do and really needs to get to work on that project" In my mind I found myself completing his sentence with a very harsh judgment "because she is incompetent at her job". I started to internally become very cold towards him and withdraw (the Fe shrug)-then realized the issue. I Fe'd into his phrase. He, as an ISTJ, said EXACTLY what he meant. I read motive into his phrasing which was more harsh than his spoken words.

This is so subjective and so cheated that I cant assume it it is a universal thing-but the observations felt very real.

Fe users always comment that ENFPs Ne into the emo states of others-part of this is not being able to see/hear these unspoken Fe conversations, yet picking up on subtle signs that we are missing some vital component of the conversation. We will jump to assuming the worst.

I think INTJs never even know they missed anything-thus plow forward.
 

sculpting

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Well, I don't know why, but it's really difficult for me to believe this. Probably on some level I can conceive of it, but I just can't seem to wrap my mind/self around it entirely. I would just imagine that "he" (since there is no specific one right now, though a couple have caught my attention in the past) would have no use for someone like me, would see me as a purely fluffy sparkles person, or would want someone who isn't such a spaz, emotionally or in terms of thought processes, even. I am a thoughtful and intelligent person, but I just also like fun things and silly things and even dumb things.


I don't know... it's easy to tell yourself to just be yourself, but it's really difficult to do when it's a situation that is intimidating.

If you have no idea what to do with an INTJ, say most insane ridiculous goofy thing you can think of, then look them full on, smile and just let yourself glow with love, then giggle. They just stop and stare....

Keep in mind you then are stuck loving them as you cant give Fi like that without actually making an Fi connection. As a result i love all the INTJs I have ever met. Not like sexually, like as in real love and caring.

All my IRL INTJs are women or married men, so never had a relationship with one, just loved them all. They are the only ones who get to see unbridled Fi.
 

uumlau

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Well, I don't know why, but it's really difficult for me to believe this. Probably on some level I can conceive of it, but I just can't seem to wrap my mind/self around it entirely. I would just imagine that "he" (since there is no specific one right now, though a couple have caught my attention in the past) would have no use for someone like me, would see me as a purely fluffy sparkles person, or would want someone who isn't such a spaz, emotionally or in terms of thought processes, even. I am a thoughtful and intelligent person, but I just also like fun things and silly things and even dumb things.


I don't know... it's easy to tell yourself to just be yourself, but it's really difficult to do when it's a situation that is intimidating.

That's what's magical about it. You don't quite believe it can be true, but it is.

Keep in mind, this is a generic template of a dynamic, in that "this is how it happens, when it happens." There are ENFPs who don't particularly like me, and there are others who do. There's always more at play. But when you do like each other, the dynamic is as I describe.

The reason I tell you to be yourself is that being yourself is the only way you can see if it works. If you can't "be yourself," you really don't have a relationship, do you? It'd just be a mutual fascination society, as you both declare "love" for one another, but hold yourselves back.

So, be yourself (within reason, I'm assuming public interactions to start with). If it doesn't work out, you lose nothing. (It isn't as if he was the love of your life beforehand - you don't know him, yet.) If it works out, you have everything to gain. It seems kind of harsh, since it's scary to let yourself be yourself, but that's how you get from point A to point B. It's one of those fears that is worth facing down.

Now, I can understand why you don't believe it could be true. You have this super-serious INTJ - what the heck would he want with a silly person like you? That's why this thread exists: it's one of those matches that seems impossible, but it isn't. Really, deep down, you aren't that silly. You are in fact judging yourself by some very serious standards, if your opinion of yourself is that you're silly. And an INTJ, really, deep down, is silly, and he's hiding that fact from everyone around him, because he let out his silliness as he grew up and determined that he didn't like how people reacted to it.

The real key is that you are both serious AND silly in the same way. It's hard to describe, but that's where the "Fe/Ti vs Te/Fi" posts are coming from - because the same dynamic doesn't happen between INTJs and ENFJs or ENTPs, for example. There is an essential way of looking at the world that ENFP and INTJ both share, but they approach it from opposite ends: ENFP the emotional side, and INTJ the intellectual side. The ENFP "serious side" is very akin to the INTJ's normal mode. The INTJ's "silly side" is very akin to the ENFP's normal mode.
 

uumlau

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Ah at INTJc they talked about actually sometimes making facial gestures and such. And whole conversations with yourselves?
That's basically the deal. I think your Se insight is key ... we can be in our Ni world, totally, and Se shows our reactions to it for all the world to see. It's one reason we get so tired, socially. Randomly saying things, laughing at jokes one makes to oneself, and all of that just doesn't play well in the real world. Alone, or with those we trust, we can let it flow, but in public, the self-control has to snap into place, because we don't want to be regarded as silly or crazy.

Also-what is your typical perspective of ISTJs? My favorite ISTJ just got utterly screwed via the judgment of an INTJ. Trying to understand why.
I find that they're easy to get along with, in a nice predictable way. I don't think I've ever had any such person in a position to give me trouble, so I don't have a list of things I don't like about the type. To me, they seem like INTJs at first glance, and then I have to delve to determine S/N.


There is something very legitimate here. You have to just hold my hand and trust me, I cant convince you of the below, just explain my observations and have you understand they may be highly subjective.

I cheated with Fe when I was terribly depressed and found myself terribly flawed. I found I could find Fe. Not just brush it or use it in a shadow sense but really deeply fall into it and quench Fi. I spent a couple of weeks doing this. I could do it now if I tried-meaning actual hard work honestly, like 30 minutes of meditation-but it makes me a different person. I JUDGE things differently. The world looks different.

One thing I noticed. When conversing with Fe users my mind would use different sets of words-very soft pleasing words, group words. I didnt decide to do this-it just happened. But at the end of each sentence I would complete the thought in my head and ascribe motivations or harsher judgments to the person talking. "Spoken: Now we will all work as a team (Unspoken: Because bob didnt really complete his work)"

With Fe users this works amazingly well. Suddenly I felt like I was hearing pieces of conversations I had never heard before. It was really nice to "fit in" and not feel like I was a social outcast. I "understood" the unspoken social rules.

Once while playing with Fe I found myself talking to an ISTJ at work. Good guy.

He was talking to me about my best friend. He said " Well SL has a list of things to do and really needs to get to work on that project" In my mind I found myself completing his sentence with a very harsh judgment "because she is incompetent at her job". I started to internally become very cold towards him and withdraw (the Fe shrug)-then realized the issue. I Fe'd into his phrase. He, as an ISTJ, said EXACTLY what he meant. I read motive into his phrasing which was more harsh than his spoken words.

This is so subjective and so cheated that I cant assume it it is a universal thing-but the observations felt very real.

Fe users always comment that ENFPs Ne into the emo states of others-part of this is not being able to see/hear these unspoken Fe conversations, yet picking up on subtle signs that we are missing some vital component of the conversation. We will jump to assuming the worst.

I think INTJs never even know they missed anything-thus plow forward.

Yes, very often, INTJs never even know they missed anything. Very very true. Even weirder for us is when we serendipitously do something "right", and we never quite know what it was ...

These days, I can read Fe signals, but I suspect it's all Te on my part, picking it up, and deriving general "objective" rules of politeness based on success and failure. In general, I focus on projecting positive emotions with Fi, which Fe appears to read as sincere good intentions. One thing I've noticed is that, in person, xxFJ gets along with me very well, if not always buddy-buddy. In only my very closest relationships (my brother, my ex-wife, both ESFJ) has it been difficult, and I think that's the N vs S aggravating the Te/Fe divide. My Mom was INFJ and we always got along. My best friend of many years is INFJ, and we "just get each other."

Online, however, it's a different story, especially on forums (and on "usenet newsgroups" back in the old days). I suspect that the online environment cripples much of the tools of Fe, so the good vibes I'm usually sending out don't get received, so if a statement of mine could be interpreted as an affront based on words alone, it is more likely to be thus interpreted.
 

Kalach

Filthy Apes!
Joined
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Is it untrue, or does it possibly being true bother you?

This is where I should tap into Si and reassure you with lengthy concrete descriptions and caring facial expressions that, don't worry so much, the world really does exist.

But I'll plow forward with some, well, I'll call it logic:

The particular part of the earlier thesis I noticed was the suggestion that Te is used to impose something on external variables. Te efforts are rightly called an imposition if all truth is subjective. If, like all e functions are supposed to be, it is, or aims to be, objective, then Te efforts are better called conclusions. But if Te isn't objective, indeed if as it seemed you were suggesting, all i functions either end up or just are more important than e functions, all e functions must fail to be objective, either some of the time, or all of the time, owing to the primacy of all i subjectivity.

That means your Ne too. And your Fe. That social order you've been perceiving? It isn't there. And while I'm happy to be free of that, the cost is too high because not only is the social order not there, the world isn't either. And that subjectivity of the i functions is so totally justified it doesn't need to be questioned anymore. Except that [etc and so on and philosophical arguments about the nature of reality].

Do e functions access an objective reality? If they do, then individuals sticking too hard to an i subjectivity are making a mistake. And further to that, if e functions do access an objective reality, then sticking to an i subjectivity is OKAY!!! Where, if it's a judging i, did that i function get its data? Where did a perceiving i gets its structured conclusions?

But if e functions don't generally access an objective reality, then [insert Wittgenstein's Private Language Argument, or whatever modern variation actually works] and don't worry anyway.
 
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