[ENFP] ENFP+INTJ=Disasterous Combo o' love

[Thalassa]

(After some thought I realized another partner company has another INTJ in the same exact role. But this one uses a bit more Te and is a bit cocky. It makes me feel mixed feelings.

He's kinda sexy, kinda funny, yet endlessly critical of my product, which by nature of fucked up Fi is actually an extension of me (like my furniture). After day three, I start having fantasies of tying him down in a chair, duct taping his mouth shut, and telling him how WONDERFUL all my products are. He only gets untied when he agrees how WONDERFUL all my products are. "You like my products dont you? Of course you do!!! Good INTJ!!!" While this sounds crazy, I actually like him, while a large percentage of my comapny calls him a pompous douchebag.

However from both INTJs I have gotten superb, if painful, product development feedback.)

I just noticed this part of your post, and I think you have a similar reaction to INTJs that I have to ENTPs. It's like we're opposites in that regard. Very interesting.

 

[sculpting]

Oh HP, you are definitely not alone! I have always loved verbal sparring. Maybe not always, but at least since the age of 9-10 years I've felt the joy of intellectual discussions.
And looking back, I've almost always found it a huge relief (yeah, tertiary Te...) to discuss with T's as they hardly ever mix up rational disagreement, witty puns and relentless insistency with personal attacks. The sharper I get, the more they beam - it's so liberating! At least for an ENFP fearful of hurting anybody.

The last couple of years public debate is even becoming part of my work life, which suits me better than I thought...

And while I don't know other confirmed ENFPs IRL, the two that I guess share my type are very much into debate as well.
It could be due to the E. INFPs I know don't seek debate. Though, if they do get agitated enough about a subject to actually raise their voice and debate you, you know you must have overstepped / overlooked something important. Beware.

Anyway, perhaps unlike ENTPs (who I find very, very inspiring to discuss with, btw.) I've never got the impression that ENFPs will do it for the sport alone. The issue discussed has to have an emotional or ethical importance.


PS. Eh-um... my ex-husband, father of my kids, is ISTP too. It seems we have a trend of (young?) ENFPs being into ISTPs. Maybe we should make a thread about this - sometimes quite disastrous - combo?
Come to think of it, I read somewhere that ISTPs are the type most easily being confused with INTJ. Never fully understood why that would be the case, but I must admit those two types come up quite a bit in serious ENFP tales of romance.

I think the debate is Te-Te in ENFPs is worth some discussion. Te in general doesnt get much attention at the forum as most of our NTs are Ti. I had a lot of thoughts about how Te gets utilized by ENFPs that I will gather over the next few days and post here in this thread.

ISTPs? maybe because they kinda look INTJ like on the surface? I dunno... Sapienne why did you like your ISTP? Mine picked me up over his shoulder and drug me out of a fast food restaurant at 17. Things just went from there. I think he was looking for an Fe user to be nurturing towards him, but when young didnt want the control of an ENFJ. ENFPs can be really sweet when we are young so I can see the confusion.

I just noticed this part of your post, and I think you have a similar reaction to INTJs that I have to ENTPs. It's like we're opposites in that regard. Very interesting.

My ENTPs feed Ne. Our ideas race past each other. Since I am super crazy Ne, it's like taking drugs. We also giggle at all the same stuff and they get my jokes and random ass connections.

My INTJs do something totally different. I love them. Like the real deal with Fi and everything. I feel deep affection for several of the INTJs I work with. One is an older man-about 60. When I stop by his office I always hug him and the other day we exchanged "I love you"s after we spoke of the recent loss of his step son. At the christmas party two of the INTJ women I worked with set at my table. After a glass of wine I actually found myself reaching over and touching one on the cheek gently, as she has been through so much in the last two years with anorexia and a near divorce.

The other INTJ women has the utter goofiest silly enfp husband ever and although an executive, chose to sit at our table. She has MS, had a baby who had to have open heart surgery this year, and has gotten handed the biggest cluster fuck at our company this year. She is fixing the shit because thats what she does. Before her baby's surgery I stopped by one day and she looked at me and said "My baby's name is Seth" and started crying. That's when i realized that none of the Fe users would call him anything but her "baby" or talk directly to her about him. The chance of him dying was significant and I guess they avoided her? i dont understand why. He came through okay. Sometimes I sneak by and leave anon flowers in her office. I actually recall touching her face, as well, one day at work, because she looked so incredibly tired and had big circles under her eyes.

The first INTJ I talked about-I actually care for him as well. I tried to buy lunch, but when he isnt criticizing my product, he is very protectively paternal and stole the check from me. He watches out for the trainers when they are visiting as well.

That last one-well he's just a youngster and I tend to find myself meeting direct Te with Te-a battle I cant win with these guys-thus the duct tape emotional affirmation scenario. You will love my products, thus inadvertently loving me eh?? muhahahahahahaaaa!

 

[poppy]

With intjs on a "path", it is much harder to derail-i think they can "feel" what they don't know and dig until they find the pivot point-the crux, the flaw.

That sounds about right (and probably accounts for why others sometimes feel like we're just trying to undermine them or their efforts).

Intjs-is it enough to get to the end of the path and understand the truth?

Do you expect others to resolve?

Would you ideally create your own resolution?

This same dynamic might bubble up occasionally as a pattern in the intj/enfp relationship. I dunno though....

If I get to the end of the path and find that an error has definitely been made, I expect it to be recognized and hopefully resolved. At the very least I expect to talk about it until we know why it happened and how we can make sure it doesn't occur again. If the other party attempts to just brush it off, I'll keep badgering about it (seriously, like a hunting dog with no discipline...it's one of the qualities I like least about myself).

It does seem to cause problems more frequently with people who value social harmony, which includes a lot of types, but very frequently XNFPs fall in that group (I swear, it's not just Fe users).


EDIT: Sorry, just dropped in. I might be totally off the flow of the convo but I wanted to respond to these questions.

 

[SillySapienne]

PS. Eh-um... my ex-husband, father of my kids, is ISTP too. It seems we have a trend of (young?) ENFPs being into ISTPs. Maybe we should make a thread about this - sometimes quite disastrous - combo?
Come to think of it, I read somewhere that ISTPs are the type most easily being confused with INTJ. Never fully understood why that would be the case, but I must admit those two types come up quite a bit in serious ENFP tales of romance.

Story of my life, so far.

I'm 27, met my ISTP at 18, had an intimate relationship with him on and off for nearly a decade.

It took me a while to figure out his type, he is so incredibly intelligent, when not adventuring/vacationing or playing with/programming/fixing/building his computer, and, or actually creating/building something, (he's a civil engineer), he spends his free time reading and thinking, he's always thinking, in fact, he's one of the smartest guys I know, and definitely the most pragmatic, and goal-oriented.

This was why it was difficult for me to ascertain whether he was an N or an S, I think he is pretty borderline, but still more of an S than an N, and due to his micro-managing goal-oriented self, I played with the idea of his possibly being a J, however, I was NEVER confused about his I and his T.

What's odd is, even though I was incredibly attracted to him, and all of his attributes, I can honestly say that he and my current INTJ boyfriend have nearly NOTHING in common, other than the fact that they are both incredibly intelligent.

This fact baffles me.



How could I be so attracted to two men who are soooooo incredibly different.

It honestly doesn't make sense.

Rarely, if ever, has my INTJ reminded me of my ISTP.

However, he has told me that I, at times, remind him of his ESFP ex.

This makes sense to me.

You are attracted to what you are attracted to.

Wait, two other similarites I just put together, they're both not liars, and neither of them are pussies.

But, yeah.

My ISTP was, no, is 100% T, he does have a beating heart and all, but he is the least emotional guy I know.

He's also pretty emotionally unintelligent, which has actually improved over the years.

I need to ruminate on this more, because I find it both interesting, and compelling.

I understand how both the ISTP and the INTJ personalities suit the ENFP one so well.

And how both could potentially make for optimal unions.

My recent thoughts have been on the P-connection.

In life, and in general, I get along better with Ps, I feel at ease with them, they're chill, I'm chill, we're chill, y'know?

Hmm, more thoughts to come.

 

[SillySapienne]

Just thought of this...

My ISTP:

Satiated and stimulated my Ne

Stifled my Fi

And Trampled on my Te <--- seems ironic, but is sooooo very true.

My INTJ:

There's the intuitive connection there, we see things others don't.

Understands, appreciates, and fosters my Fi, which is GREAT!!!

 

[SillySapienne]

Other funny and pertinent thought...

ISTP thinks MBTI/Typology is a bunch of psycho-babble bullshit one or two cognitive steps above religion.

INTJ believes in, and utilizes MBTI/Typology as a legitimate source of ascertaining/explaining human behavior/personality

 

[Thalassa]

Just thought of this...

My ISTP:

Satiated and stimulated my Ne

Stifled my Fi

And Trampled on my Te <--- seems ironic, but is sooooo very true.

Being with an SFP is a little different - we profoundly connected with Fi (very passionate, emotionally connected relationship) , and his Te satisfied mine (very straight forward, brutally honest, sometimes incisively witty, and more externally ordered due to him having Se instead of Ne) ...but he was readily annoyed by my Ne not being Se (you're always overanalyzing shit, blah blah blah) and had virtually no respect for the Si that I have to the point of mocking and ridiculing it.

I also got annoyed by the S/N divide, too, a lot I'm not going to lie. I felt like he didn't think about or analyze anything enough.

Also, people were always telling us we were too much alike, but in important ways too different. I wonder if all NFP/SFP relationships have that quality.

 

[Lauren]

Being with an SFP is a little different - we profoundly connected with Fi (very passionate, emotionally connected relationship) , and his Te satisfied mine (very straight forward, brutally honest, sometimes incisively witty, and more externally ordered due to him having Se instead of Ne) ...but he was readily annoyed by my Ne not being Se (you're always overanalyzing shit, blah blah blah) and had virtually no respect for the Si that I have to the point of mocking and ridiculing it.

I also got annoyed by the S/N divide, too, a lot I'm not going to lie. I felt like he didn't think about or analyze anything enough.

Also, people were always telling us we were too much alike, but in important ways too different. I wonder if all NFP/SFP relationships have that quality.

To your last thought, I would say yes, at least with mine. I was married to an ISTP for seven years and the same things that annoyed you annoyed me (the S/N divide). We fell madly in love and had a special connection that helped to span the differences between us. But those differences (annoyed all the time at my Ne as he didn't understand it) and his distrust in my ability to understand the concrete world when I focus on it, grew more pronounced for us over time. He would ridicule and mock it as well and he still does. The other wonderful qualities of an ISP is what kept up together for so long. I appreciated his ability to live in the concrete world, and he has a spiritual side which he downplays but is very present. (He has a fairly well-developed F side--at times he's more overwhelmed by it than I am by mine). I agree with the other poster about the P quality. I really like it, a lot. I love someone who loves possibilities and doesn't seek resolution right away. That way you keep bantering about ideas. I don't need a conclusion. I'm a poet, though, and prefer it that way.

 

[Poki]

To your last thought, I would say yes, at least with mine. I was married to an ISTP for seven years and the same things that annoyed you annoyed me (the S/N divide). We fell madly in love and had a special connection that helped to span the differences between us. But those differences (annoyed all the time at my Ne as he didn't understand it) and his distrust in my ability to understand the concrete world when I focus on it, grew more pronounced for us over time. He would ridicule and mock it as well and he still does. The other wonderful qualities of an ISP is what kept up together for so long. I appreciated his ability to live in the concrete world, and he has a spiritual side which he downplays but is very present. I agree with the other poster about the P quality. I really like it, a lot. I love someone who loves possibilities and doesn't seek resolution right away. That way you keep bantering about ideas. I don't need a conclusion. I'm a poet, though, and prefer it that way.

Can you explain what you mean by "concrete world"?

 

[Thalassa]

Can you explain what you mean by "concrete world"?

I find it strange as an SP you don't know what the concrete world means. Is it a situation where you speak a language besides English and so don't get the metaphor?

The concrete world is the here and now, it's what Se is looking at. It's why my SP ex could easily remember license plate numbers, had great reaction time, won in fights, and noticed people's facial expressions or the look in their eye...because his brain was not always, but usually, focused on living in the concrete world, while I on the other hand missed these details, as well as lacking hand eye coordination, because I've spent so much of my life reading and being inside my own head.

He used to say, "there is the way the world is, and the way you want it to be, marmalade...you seem to have a problem accepting the world as it is."

Do you understand now? Surely you relate, but perhaps describe it in different words?

 

[Poki]

I find it strange as an SP you don't know what the concrete world means. Is it a situation where you speak a language besides English and so don't get the metaphor?

The concrete world is the here and now, it's what Se is looking at. It's why my SP ex could easily remember license plate numbers, had great reaction time, won in fights, and noticed people's facial expressions or the look in their eye...because his brain was not always, but usually, focused on living in the concrete world, while I on the other hand missed these details, as well as lacking hand eye coordination, because I've spent so much of my life reading and being inside my own head.

He used to say, "there is the way the world is, and the way you want it to be, marmalade...you seem to have a problem accepting the world as it is."

Do you understand now? Surely you relate, but perhaps describe it in different words?

I guess what confuses me is that NFPs are part of this world and so is their lack of "paying attention". To me when they dont accept you as who you are they arent accepting all of reality or the "world" just the parts they deem "concrete". It just throws me off and seems like tunnel vision.

 

[Lauren]

I guess what confuses me is that NFPs are part of this world and so is their lack of "paying attention". To me when they dont accept you as who you are they arent accepting all of reality or the "world" just the parts they deem "concrete". It just throws me off and seems like tunnel vision.

NFPs, or at least in my case, do see the concrete world but use it as a springboard for possibilities. SPs, on the other hand, only see it as the here and now and aren't as interested in possibilities. I appreciated my husband's ability to only live in the here and now because that's not where I spend most of my time. So, he saw things I didn't. Meaning, he saw details that I would overlook (certain bills I needed to pay, car or bike maintenance, the ability to use tools effectively and creatively, etc.) And, there were times I know he appreciated me for seeing things he couldn't. But, he didn't trust my intuition or my ability to see into a situation and know the outcome without 'testing' it or verifying it against 'reality.' He had kind of an insistence on his way of viewing the world and would tease me whenever I had to use a 'tool.' I know how to read a manual, assemble something, use tools (very SP things), they just bore me to tears. It's not tunnel visiion. If you'll excuse the pun, that's a narrow way of looking at it. I don't insist that others be as interested in possbiliites as I am. The S/N divide can be spanned in a relationship but it takes a lot of work for both parties.

 

[Poki]

NFPs, or at least in my case, do see the concrete world but use it as a springboard for possibilities. SPs, on the other hand, only see it as the here and now and aren't as interested in possibilities. I appreciated my husband's ability to only live in the here and now because that's not where I spend most of my time. So, he saw things I didn't. Meaning, he saw details that I would overlook (certain bills I needed to pay, car or bike maintenance, the ability to use tools effectively and creatively, etc.) And, there were times I know he appreciated me for seeing things he couldn't. But, he didn't trust my intuition or my ability to see into a situation and know the outcome without 'testing' it or verifying it against 'reality.' He had kind of an insistence on his way of viewing the world and would tease me whenever I had to use a 'tool.' I know how to read a manual, assemble something, use tools (very SP things), they just bore me to tears. It's not tunnel visiion. If you'll excuse the pun, that's a narrow way of looking at it. I don't insist that others be as interested in possbiliites as I am. The S/N divide can be spanned in a relationship but it takes a lot of work for both parties.

The part I bolded is "not" tunnel vision, but the SP you refer to sounds insistant and judgemental of others being interested in possibilities. The fact that he insists on the way he sees something is tunnel vision and closed minded. Maybe its the fact that I grew up with an NFP and I unerstand 100% that their are many ways to skin a cat. I have always tossed up my heavy use of possibilities to Ni which as a tertiary is very heavily used in me as an ISTP. I just think in determining SPs people focus to much on "concrete" I mean ESTP and ISTJ are dominant S types, to me those woud be the ones who are more stuck in the "concrete world". It doesnt make logical sense. The only way I can see it adding up is if you put to much weight into the term "concrete world". ISTP with a aux Se and a tertiary Ni are gonna be pretty balanced in terms of N/S.

I am actually thinking of changing my type just because of this stigma that is ISTP and the "concrete world". Have nothing against these people, I just prefer to have my Ti and P shine though and be a very open and accepting person as opposed to judgemental of how others go about things.

edit: whether he is right or wrong or good at what he does not change the fact that it is judgemental. He can choose how he wants to do things, but the second he "judges" you on how you do it makes himjudgemental. I have personally never seen myself as a judgmental type and dont know anyone that would, that is one reason people think I am so laid back is because I dont judge the way others go about things.

 

[SillySapienne]

Ti, for those of us who do not use it-use it, can seem like tunnel vision, thorough as it might be.

 

[onemoretime]

I am actually thinking of changing my type just because of this stigma that is ISTP and the "concrete world". Have nothing against these people, I just prefer to have my Ti and P shine though and be a very open and accepting person as opposed to judgemental of how others go about things.

Don't do that. Anyone who thinks ISTPs can only live in the concrete world hasn't read "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance". All perceivers (and indeed, all humans) think about things that go beyond concrete reality (how would anyone be an artist if this weren't the case?). The difference between the Ne lens and the Se lens is that the former starts from the abstract principles and works its way outward, while the latter starts from the concrete understanding and works its way inward (sounds a bit like Ni, doesn't it?).

ISTPs are smart. Really fucking smart. It's just that they may not often reveal it, because no one bothers asking them.

 

[Poki]

Don't do that. Anyone who thinks ISTPs can only live in the concrete world hasn't read "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance". All perceivers (and indeed, all humans) think about things that go beyond concrete reality (how would anyone be an artist if this weren't the case?). The difference between the Ne lens and the Se lens is that the former starts from the abstract principles and works its way outward, while the former starts from the concrete understanding and works its way inward (sounds a bit like Ni, doesn't it?).

ISTPs are smart. Really fucking smart. It's just that they may not often reveal it, because no one bothers asking them.

Please correct the bolded.

Also change your "read" example. Maintenance is a J task. The more appropriate for me would be the "megasquirt" manual and forum. How to install and program a standalone DIY computer management system in a car. Screw having someone do it for you or tell you exactly what to do, you miss out on learning how it all works.

No one bothers asking me, but some how people always get that impression of me by what I do.

Still none of that changes the judgemental impression others get that seem to follow ISTP. Im not arguing ISTP being smart, never have.

 

[onemoretime]

Please correct the bolded.

Also change your "read" example. Maintenance is a J task. The more appropriate for me would be the "megasquirt" manual and forum. How to install and program a standalone DIY computer management system in a car. Screw having someone do it for you or tell you exactly what to do, you miss out on learning how it all works.

No one bothers asking me, but some how people always get that impression of me by what I do.

Still none of that changes the judgemental impression others get that seem to follow ISTP. Im not arguing ISTP being smart, never have.

I guess you haven't read the book, either. It's about a guy who talks about his friend who bought a brand new BMW bike, but when it breaks down, has to go to the mechanic every time because he doesn't bother with learning how to deal with it himself. On the other hand, the narrator has an old bike he constantly maintains, but not for the bike itself. Through the maintenance of the bike, and learning about it, he learns deep truths about the nature of things. For one, the bike isn't a collection of material parts, but rather a human construct. Not only that, but the steel used for the bike isn't even a concrete reality, but a human construct - steel doesn't exist in nature, someone had to imagine it. Both the bike and the steel truly exist in the human imagination, while the material manifestation of them are the true abstractions. So on and so forth, through the application of logical analysis to the most seemingly basic of tasks, he uncovers more and more concepts of reality, deeper than his friend who thought himself superior to mere manual tasks as that one.

Like I said - really smart. In fact, I think Newton may have been an ISTP.

 

[SillySapienne]

ISTPs are smart. Really fucking smart. It's just that they may not often reveal it, because no one bothers asking them.

Truth.

The ISTPs I've known, three, to be exact, have all been RIDICULOUSLY INTELLIGENT!!!!

And, the ISTP I intimately know is, hands down, one of the smartest guys I've ever met.

So honest, and.... so fucking deep.

:deep:

 

[Thalassa]

Truth.

The ISTPs I've known, three, to be exact, have all been RIDICULOUSLY INTELLIGENT!!!!

And, the ISTP I intimately know is, hands down, one of the smartest guys I've ever met.

So honest, and.... so fucking deep.

:deep:

I know an extremely intelligent eSFP. He's not "intellectual" and has an unstable artistic temperament (like me...?), but he's one of the smarter people I've met and it always bothers me that people assume that ESFPs are "stupid."

As far as ISTPs go, I've been told they're the most N of the Ss. I tend to like them. There's a lot of them on this site.

 

[Lauren]

I know an extremely intelligent eSFP. He's not "intellectual" and has an unstable artistic temperament (like me...?), but he's one of the smarter people I've met and it always bothers me that people assume that ESFPs are "stupid."

As far as ISTPs go, I've been told they're the most N of the Ss. I tend to like them. There's a lot of them on this site.

I agree with this thought about ISTPs or ISFPs--that they are intelligent, interesting, and make connections others might not make. That's one of the things I liked most about my ex-husband. I admired his ability to understand how things really worked in the world and from there, he could deduce all kinds of things. He has a wide-ranging intelligence. It was the judgmental aspect and a fierce independence (which I also like but which excluded me almost entirely) that made him so difficult to live with.