[ENFP] ENFP+INTJ=Disasterous Combo o' love

[SillySapienne]

I know incredibly intimately an ISTP, with such a pronounced SUPER-Ti, that once you get him talking about something he's thought about thoroughly, my oh my....

He won't stfu.

Seriously, he won't.

Neither will he want your input, as they'd be mere interruptions in his thought process/monologue, plus, according to him, he's already thought every possible contingency/question through.

 

[sculpting]

Ok, so I poised Question of intjs and testing the other day. Cause it sort of "feels" that way.

I think I figured this out.

Been on a trip to san fran and spent yesterday working with an intj engineer at a another company.

55 years or so, sweet threads of Fi, moderate to mild Te in normal convo.

Then he looks at my instrument (not that you dirty minded entps, the actual instrument I sell). I have known this guy for about three years professionally.

When he looks at my "box" (this is fun), my stomach drops and I get kinda bummed out.

Why?

Becasue we will start down the NiTe path. I enjoy it if it is a path of troublshooting or mutual sharing.

Alas, when looks at my box, he is another path-discovery and assesment. He knows there are flaws.

Step by step, question by question he finds them. Always.

Like an autopsy of my equipment.

With an entp, I can sparkle and dazzle-distract or just confuse an intp-by random insanity.

With intjs on a "path", it is much harder to derail-i think they can "feel" what they don't know and dig until they find the pivot point-the crux, the flaw.


What is hard is that I seek to make my customers happy, due to a drive for emo affirmation and Fi mirrored happiness.

Problematically the end of the NiTe path typically ends up as a fundemental flaw-somthing I cannot resolve. Thus I failed in my nefi mandate of pleasing the other.

I can't remedy the intellectual inconsistancy/fundemental flaw in the product-which nefi translates into "unhappiness" thus I get kinda bummed out.

Intjs-is it enough to get to the end of the path and understand the truth?

Do you expect others to resolve?

Would you ideally create your own resolution?

This same dynamic might bubble up occasionally as a pattern in the intj/enfp relationship. I dunno though....

 

[sculpting]

I know incredibly intimately an ISTP, with such a pronounced SUPER-Ti, that once you get him talking about something he's thought about thoroughly, my oh my....

He won't stfu.

Seriously, he won't.

Neither will he want your input, as they'd be mere interruptions in his thought process/monologue, plus, according to him, he's already thought every possible contingency/question through.

Hmmmm, mine never talked much-but neither did he want or need my input either. It was all physical application.

K said ne can drive ni w tese in gear nuts

Wonder if this is same idea w istps-just NiSe in different pattern.

Also istps with intj dads. -mine too? A pattern perhaps? I like the NiSe connection.

 

[SillySapienne]

Hmmm, within a new social group, or one that he didn't feel comfortable with, my ISTP would become a mute.

I think, like many ITPs, when they are comfortable with their audience, and the content of the dialogue, they will yammer away, er, no, LECTURE away like it's nobody's biznasssss!!!

 

[Laurie]

My INTJ close friend used to compare the amount of words we spent IMing (on top of skyping) to the number of words in the LOTR trilogy.

That should say it all.

 

[Poki]

Oh god yes, sign me up!!!
And yes to the riding horses!!!!



YLJ



Yes where the hell is that smiley :steam:

Poki, I'm scared out in the wild while it's dark...can I share your hammock? *innocent look*

I like the dark. Would never turn down helping someone with a fear.

Istps mostly do live behind the scenes. They are not very verbal typically, but they exert themselves on the physical Ti problems around them-those they can touch-from Se I suppose, thus pushing to the foreground as those problems are a tangible aspect of the groups shared reality.

Istps can fix anything. Trust me.

But how does Ni influence the way they choose to fix the problem? If an intj seeks a solution that is tnagible, even if the result of a Ni abstraction,

I'd assume poki would perceive the practicality of the problem at hand but use the "force" of Ni to identify new ways to solve which were like....oh I give up, do tell us poki!!

Yes the practicality of the problem would be really accurate. Concepts pop into my head almost instantly in regard to what I have experience in. I wanted to be an architect, but it would be more a systems architect. Talking with an ENTP they want to really dig into the details, where as I really enjoy putting things together high level. This is why ENTPs use outside sources to understand the high level or patterns and theories. I go outside to get the detail and turn it high level and play with concepts.

If I were to become a manager I would be a type that works for my employees and turn to them for details and I play with the high level concepts to solve problems. Alot of managers like to lay out the detail and have the employees provide high level concepts, but then they must turn to them to dig into the details and provide it back up to the manager as a detailed plan of action. Managers become nothing more then detail gatherers and nothing more then a post man taking in mail and handing it out. This is Te driven management as opposed to Ni driven management. They become detail gatherers instead of idea generators based on past experience. Unlike Ne though I dont expand out, but more focused on finding solutions for problems. I am not a brainstormer in where we should go, but a brainstormer in how to get from point A to point B. Turning to others to feed me the detail of what they see.

edit: I have always earned the title "secret weapon" among immediate managers.

 

[Kalach]

Intjs-is it enough to get to the end of the path and understand the truth?

Do you expect others to resolve?

Would you ideally create your own resolution?

This same dynamic might bubble up occasionally as a pattern in the intj/enfp relationship. I dunno though....

Depends who owns the vision. For whatever aspect of the world they're working on, be it some external project or some relationship struggle, who owns the vision of the future?

 

[Kalach]

Yes the practicality of the problem would be really accurate. Concepts pop into my head almost instantly in regard to what I have experience in. I wanted to be an architect, but it would be more a systems architect. Talking with an ENTP they want to really dig into the details, where as I really enjoy putting things together high level. This is why ENTPs use outside sources to understand the high level or patterns and theories. I go outside to get the detail and turn it high level and play with concepts.

If I were to become a manager I would be a type that works for my employees and turn to them for details and I play with the high level concepts to solve problems. Alot of managers like to lay out the detail and have the employees provide high level concepts, but then they must turn to them to dig into the details and provide it back up to the manager as a detailed plan of action. Managers become nothing more then detail gatherers and nothing more then a post man taking in mail and handing it out. This is Te driven management as opposed to Ni driven management. They become detail gatherers instead of idea generators based on past experience. Unlike Ne though I dont expand out, but more focused on finding solutions for problems. I am not a brainstormer in where we should go, but a brainstormer in how to get from point A to point B. Turning to others to feed me the detail of what they see.

edit: I have always earned the title "secret weapon" among immediate managers.

See, that reads as Chart-The-Course. Lots of stuff you write reads as Chart-The-Course, telling it like it is so that other people don't need to go wrong by missing the important points.

It can't be the kingmaker functions that produce this because SFPs have Se and Ni too but they stay in their allocated Interaction style zone. It's only the STPs that jump out of the orderly progression: the IJs are Chart the Course but ISTP muscles in; the EJs are In-Charge, but ESTP muscles in. What is it that does that?

I ask in this context because... I dunno. Something about Se.

 

[Thalassa]

Then he looks at my instrument (not that you dirty minded entps, the actual instrument I sell). I have known this guy for about three years professionally.

When he looks at my "box" (this is fun), my stomach drops and I get kinda bummed out.

Why?

Becasue we will start down the NiTe path. I enjoy it if it is a path of troublshooting or mutual sharing.

Alas, when looks at my box, he is another path-discovery and assesment. He knows there are flaws.

Step by step, question by question he finds them. Always.

Like an autopsy of my equipment.

Couldn't this be helpful? Like someone with strengths supporting you in an area you lack?

With an entp, I can sparkle and dazzle-distract or just confuse an intp-by random insanity.

With intjs on a "path", it is much harder to derail-i think they can "feel" what they don't know and dig until they find the pivot point-the crux, the flaw.

What exactly do you want to derail...criticism? I need clarification because I'm not sure what you mean here.

What is hard is that I seek to make my customers happy, due to a drive for emo affirmation and Fi mirrored happiness.

Problematically the end of the NiTe path typically ends up as a fundemental flaw-somthing I cannot resolve. Thus I failed in my nefi mandate of pleasing the other.

I can't remedy the intellectual inconsistancy/fundemental flaw in the product-which nefi translates into "unhappiness" thus I get kinda bummed out.

Are you saying you feel criticized?

I'm really interested in what you're saying here, I just don't know that I completely understand.

 

[uumlau]

Ok, so I poised Question of intjs and testing the other day. Cause it sort of "feels" that way.

I think I figured this out.

Been on a trip to san fran and spent yesterday working with an intj engineer at a another company.

55 years or so, sweet threads of Fi, moderate to mild Te in normal convo.

Then he looks at my instrument (not that you dirty minded entps, the actual instrument I sell). I have known this guy for about three years professionally.

When he looks at my "box" (this is fun), my stomach drops and I get kinda bummed out.

Why?

Becasue we will start down the NiTe path. I enjoy it if it is a path of troublshooting or mutual sharing.

Alas, when looks at my box, he is another path-discovery and assesment. He knows there are flaws.

Step by step, question by question he finds them. Always.

Like an autopsy of my equipment.

With an entp, I can sparkle and dazzle-distract or just confuse an intp-by random insanity.

With intjs on a "path", it is much harder to derail-i think they can "feel" what they don't know and dig until they find the pivot point-the crux, the flaw.

This is exactly right. It feels like this from the INTJ perspective. Without much Fe on our part, you can only persuade us with legitimate Te-style arguments. We can like you very much personally, and still evaluate on object in which you have invested much energy with dispassionate rigor?

Why do we do this, even when we have a good strong Fi? Because the object is not you, in our eyes.

There is a very strong parallel with SS's half-burrito story.

What is hard is that I seek to make my customers happy, due to a drive for emo affirmation and Fi mirrored happiness.

Problematically the end of the NiTe path typically ends up as a fundemental flaw-somthing I cannot resolve. Thus I failed in my nefi mandate of pleasing the other.

I can't remedy the intellectual inconsistancy/fundemental flaw in the product-which nefi translates into "unhappiness" thus I get kinda bummed out.

I totally understand this. It's actually one of the drawbacks of being a salesperson for a technical product, as opposed to a feel-good-happy product. (I in no way intend to demean feel-good-happy products ... I like to feel-good-happy, too.)

Intjs-is it enough to get to the end of the path and understand the truth?

Do you expect others to resolve?

Would you ideally create your own resolution?

This same dynamic might bubble up occasionally as a pattern in the intj/enfp relationship. I dunno though....

I'm not sure quite what you're getting at with these questions. I very much appreciate your observations that led to them. Very perceptive.

Really, all it is, HP, is that our NiTe evaluates a technical thingie functionally. That's it. No more, no less. We need to know what it does, how it works, how it doesn't work. Often, when we're done, if it's something we use or need to use, we know how it works better than the designers, better than the manual writers, better than technical support. We're like that.

That said, the other thing we're evaluating for is whether its functionality is useful to us. It could be a perfectly good Salad Shooter (tm), but if we don't have a salad, or we don't wish to shoot a salad, then we don't need it.

Alternatively, it could have a dozen "flaws", all of which we pinpoint, and when all is said and done, we still want the product, because it does more than your competition's product, or does something we need that nothing else does.

And there isn't one talking point you can use to persuade us otherwise. Your best bet is to be totally honest: we respect that, and will keep doing business with you when you're honest. We don't trust easily, but we really want to trust you. You create a very strong emotional bond (of respect) when you're upfront and honest with an INTJ. You might not make this sale, but we'll listen to your next sales pitch for another product, rather than send you away.

I think this dynamic does come up in ENFP/INTJ relationships. I think SS's burrito story covered a lot of it.

And I think it comes up in that you ENFPs seem to admire how we INTJs just block off our feelings and analyze, wishing you could do that so easily. And it comes up in that INTJs just love how you ENFPs emote and care and don't seem to be hurt by it (or at least not for long), and we admire that resiliency.

But when INTJ and ENFP finally get to know each other for real, each learns the truth. The INTJ learns that the ENFP's emotions are just as fragile as his own, and the ENFP learns that the INTJ's ability to fend off emotions with logic is not so robust as it first appears.

 

[sculpting]

My INTJ close friend used to compare the amount of words we spent IMing (on top of skyping) to the number of words in the LOTR trilogy.

That should say it all.

yes! My best friend INTJ told me I write EXACTLY like I speak. With far, far too many words. (why do we use so many words? why did I just use Far twice in a row? I dont know-my speech is exceptionally fluidic, and I am typing the exact thoughts that bubble up in my brain)

Yes the practicality of the problem would be really accurate. Concepts pop into my head almost instantly in regard to what I have experience in(Se but encoded in the past as Ti?). I wanted to be an architect, but it would be more a systems architect. Talking with an ENTP they want to really dig into the details, where as I really enjoy putting things together high level. This is why ENTPs use outside sources to understand the high level or patterns and theories. I go outside to get the detail and turn it high level and play with concepts.

Poki this is so weird. I think we are speaking two different languages. It's like your terms mean the opposite of what I would say. But then when you put them in a sentence you phrase them the same way I would.

(Just FYI Poki, your posts have become an interesting fixation for me. There is a deep Type C lesson brewing, but I cant tease it out just yet. I can just feel it, but cant sort out the connections.)

Its odd as due to Ne, I always start off understanding the entps, but they loose me in the Ti details-which are still exceptionally abstract, Ne not Se. But they love systems and high level concepts. But it sounds like you are saying you see them get stuck in details and you love systems and high level concepts. Yet you are very much an ISTP, especially based on that last line about being the secret weapon. ISTPs are the BEST secret weapons.

Could your "high level" mean an SeNi version which would see NeTi is being crammed full of useless details and missing the point?

Much like INTJs, ISTPs can move mountains but the mountains have to have an immediate tangible reason to be moved?

If I were to become a manager I would be a type that works for my employees and turn to them for details and I play with the high level concepts to solve problems. Alot of managers like to lay out the detail and have the employees provide high level concepts, but then they must turn to them to dig into the details and provide it back up to the manager as a detailed plan of action. Managers become nothing more then detail gatherers and nothing more then a post man taking in mail and handing it out. This is Te driven management as opposed to Ni driven management. They become detail gatherers instead of idea generators based on past experience. Unlike Ne though I dont expand out, but more focused on finding solutions for problems. I am not a brainstormer in where we should go, but a brainstormer in how to get from point A to point B. Turning to others to feed me the detail of what they see.

dude this is so weird-I have to twist my brain to see this from your perspective. Managers w high level concepts and employees coming up with details is the norm for most productivity. However the best managers will be very open to high level concepts being changed, modified or new suggestions coming up from the bottom, that might change the high level concept.

idea generation based on past experience-NeSi would do this. But it sounds like you use SeNi to do it as well, but highly tuned upon the objective end goal.

 

[sculpting]

Are you saying you feel criticized?

I'm really interested in what you're saying here, I just don't know that I completely understand.

In the context of my instrument, I dont feel personally criticized, but I feel disappointed that I cant satisfy my customer. I am a Product Manager, which a sort of catch all person in a Marketing department. ENFPs excel in Product Management. We seek to take care of others, so I guess in copororate america this translates into taking care of our customers-both internal and external. Product managers have to be jack-of-all trades and willing to step in and do whatever it takes, even if not part of their official job, to please a customer. (Fe users are shitty product managers as they will default to "that's not my job" and get in pissing contests with other departments)

With respect to an instrument, My job is to make the customer-the INTJ in this case happy. But the INTJ identifies flaws I cant fix, thus leaving me sort of stuck-I am programmed biological to care for the person, yet I cant "care" for them properly.

Let's assume Fi really serves as an emo mirror. I see the other in pain, I mirror their pain and in order to relieve my own internal pain, I must help them.

In this case I see the INTJ "unhappy/unsatisfied", Fi attempts to mirror, and then feels that "unhappy/unsatisfied", yet due to the fundamental nature of the flaw, I can do nothing-thus am left with the "unhappy/unsatisfied" mirrored feeling-ie kinda bummed out.

That said, the other thing we're evaluating for is whether its functionality is useful to us. It could be a perfectly good Salad Shooter (tm), but if we don't have a salad, or we don't wish to shoot a salad, then we don't need it.

Alternatively, it could have a dozen "flaws", all of which we pinpoint, and when all is said and done, we still want the product, because it does more than your competition's product, or does something we need that nothing else does.

So see Marmelade-what happens when the product/instrument under evaluation is a potential mate?

Not a salad shooter but girlfriend. My thought is that you INTJs do the same thing-you may initially like with Fi, but you detach from Fi, and employ NiTe to evaluate, to make sure everything is safe-which for the "object" under question can feel quite probing-before you attach emotionally.

This would explain why people feel like they are being tested/evaluated, much like my instrument.

(After some thought I realized another partner company has another INTJ in the same exact role. But this one uses a bit more Te and is a bit cocky. It makes me feel mixed feelings.

He's kinda sexy, kinda funny, yet endlessly critical of my product, which by nature of fucked up Fi is actually an extension of me (like my furniture). After day three, I start having fantasies of tying him down in a chair, duct taping his mouth shut, and telling him how WONDERFUL all my products are. He only gets untied when he agrees how WONDERFUL all my products are. "You like my products dont you? Of course you do!!! Good INTJ!!!" While this sounds crazy, I actually like him, while a large percentage of my comapny calls him a pompous douchebag.

However from both INTJs I have gotten superb, if painful, product development feedback.)

 

[Laurie]

yes! My best friend INTJ told me I write EXACTLY like I speak. With far, far too many words. (why do we use so many words? why did I just use Far twice in a row? I dont know-my speech is exceptionally fluidic, and I am typing the exact thoughts that bubble up in my brain)

That's not exactly what I meant. My INTJ friend was very verbose too when you got him going.

 

[sculpting]

Heck, even when people start attributing the failure of a relationship to must be cuz of the functional mismatch, I'm a little skeptical, beyond all the other things that goes to make a relationship dynamic work.

So I have this ENTP guy who I think is kinda hot.... How would you suggest I catch his interest???

Kindly refrain from taking quotes out of context and for that matter commenting if you cannot figure out how to understand my words without twisting them. All of those quotes, if read in proper context are in fact meant either as clarifications, in the hopes of sharing and demystifying how this process works for me, or genuine questions as to why it is so hard to have this discussion, or what road block causes you to have trouble grasping something that you asked about, aka Fi. Something I've tried to explain (the way it works for me), genuinly so, and stupidly so, for the gazillionth time.

Maybe I'm at fault as I suck at debating and refining my words in a second language that I speak. This is your turf, afterall, since you won't meet me on mine. And I'm willing to try my best. But when I tell you that you misunderstand me, take my word for it. I have no problem with people who've demonstrated a clear understanding of who I am, and why I do things, telling me that this is a part of me they do not agree with. But at least, before you judge, *know* me and show me that you do. After that, your feedback is much appreciated.

Did I inaccurately quote anything?


They're your words.

Judgmental, you mean using terms like "hypocrite"?

Does a person ever get to know who you are if they don't forthrightly agree with everything you say?

It's usually called the English language. It's not exactly Ti speak either.

Why should I do that, when it seems like you're talking out of both sides of your mouth?

I appreciate that. However, can you see why it comes across as a non-admission of principle? Do you see how you're invalidating my opinion through your choice of words? You're essentially telling me "yes, it might be dangerous, but no one (especially not me) really does it that way, and your advice that I use it more judiciously was completely stupid and I'm not going to listen to you, so go away and bother me no more". That's how that translates into TiFe speech.

Ti does not like having its initial principles invalidated, just as much as Fi doesn't like having its core values contradicted. If you answer in a way that invalidates those initial principles, be prepared to prove your position, or Fe's going to box you into a social category that isn't very pleasant. If you get to say "this is what's going to happen because of Fi", then I'm telling you right now, this will happen because of Ti. Both parties, and yes, that means you too, need to swallow their pride to prevent these sorts of blow-ups in the future.

You mess with the bull, prepare for the horns. Calling a Ti user a hypocrite is a very grave insult, because it attacks our internal logical patterns. You're saying you don't understand us, but beyond that, you don't want to understand us. You're in effect being very judgmental.

I highlighted a bunch of words in amar's and OMT's posts-notice understanding, language, talking out of both sides of your mouth. Obviously these guys-and most ENTPs and ENFPs-are like ships passing in adjacent dimensions. I'd suggest in most cases both are actually right, but the translation barrier is huge and painful.

OMT (who I will miss greatly from our happy INTJ disaster o' love thread) pointed out somewhere that I can use NeTe and not respond quite the same way the other ENFPs do.

Very often, the ENTP comment may strike me exactly the way it does another ENFP, but I will feel a surge of frustration, then question it. I stop, logically distance myself from the emotion, and then use Te to pick apart the observation/critique offered by the entp. I do the best I can to fairly evaluate and understand their perception, and then understand the mechanics of Fi-why is it working this way, what does it seem like externally, as a rational Te explanation will justify the foreign Fi behavior much better than a Te bitchslap. There were a few times in our wall convo OMT, that I had to take a deep breath and a day or so, to let the Te work it's magic.

I live surrounded by ENTPs, so I have to remind myself that when they pick up the sharp probing tone in a written format here, it is the same thing I actually much enjoy in a verbal conversation. Although, my entp did once poke me quite hard in an Fi/Ti convo. I had to leave the room and give it a day.

Getting Fi poked is extremely painful for an ENFP. I think you are inadvertantly attacking the people we have decided form part of our Fi group when you do so, thus you provoking a Te rampage of hell-all subconscious. As can be seen by Marm and Amar, ENFPs WILL NOT back down once Te is evoked.

ENTPs, of all the types, seem the most disturbed by the Fi manifestations-it feels violating to them and even offensive. Also-when I question them about specifics Fi manifestations in their lives, I dont really exhibit the behaviors that disturb them the most-many of us on the board may not. Yet those behaviors ARE attributable to Fi.

Much like many observations I made about my ENTP crush last year that were attributable to tert Fe, yet that doesnt mean the ENTPs here do those things or act like him. However the ENTPs tended to revert to a herd like ENTP defense mode-just like the Fi users are doing now.

I dunno, hope some of the above gibberish is of use.

 

[uumlau]

Not a salad shooter but girlfriend. My thought is that you INTJs do the same thing-you may initially like with Fi, but you detach from Fi, and employ NiTe to evaluate, to make sure everything is safe-which for the "object" under question can feel quite probing-before you attach emotionally.

This would explain why people feel like they are being tested/evaluated, much like my instrument.

Hmm. I can't say that I've ever done that, certainly not to the degree you're saying. INTJs don't have people-intuition (Ni used regularly with Fe).

If you're getting tested at all it's probably more like this:

• Is she pretty?
• Is she annoying?
• Does she smoke?
• Is she vegan and likely to force me not to eat meat, either?
• Is she smart enough to keep up with me?
• Does she have kids? If so, am I willing to support them, eventually?
• Does she have a mountain of debt?
• Does she lie a lot?

Notice how this list is mostly functional. It isn't evaluating your motivations, whether or not you're a "good person", and other F-style criteria. It's several questions of the variety, "If I get involved, will I get hurt?" Moreover, you are not going to feel tested when he's doing this. You won't even notice he's thinking these thoughts.

I really doubt this is where you get your feeling of being tested from.

Rather, I bet it comes from the fact that until an INTJ opens up, you have no idea where you stand with him, and he's gonna be closed off for quite a while, at first. You get the feeling your being tested not because he's evaluating you, but because he's protecting himself from being hurt. He's not "testing you" in that rigorously objective manner you suggest, but in a very Fi manner. It's like the groundhog on Groundhog Day: if he sees his shadow, he'll go back inside and it'll be 6 more weeks of winter for you.

If there's an INTJ in your life from whom you're getting this "being tested" feeling, my advice would be, "be gentle." The easiest mistake would be that he shows a sliver of Fi to you, and you quickly snap him up and love him and squeeze him and call him George, you're so happy to see it. If he shows you emotion, treat him like any other xxFP: validate his feeling, and slowly work from there. Heck, he's likely not going to realize he's seeking that his feelings be validated: that he says what he feels, and you, in all improbability, actually understand.

In other words, when he shows his feelings (and drops his Te), treat his feelings every bit as gently as you would have him treat your feelings.

That's the "test."

 

[Poki]

Could your "high level" mean an SeNi version which would see NeTi is being crammed full of useless details and missing the point?

Yes, you nailed it perfectly

dude this is so weird-I have to twist my brain to see this from your perspective. Managers w high level concepts and employees coming up with details is the norm for most productivity. However the best managers will be very open to high level concepts being changed, modified or new suggestions coming up from the bottom, that might change the high level concept.

idea generation based on past experience-NeSi would do this. But it sounds like you use SeNi to do it as well, but highly tuned upon the objective end goal.

Its a different form of high level concepts. At work as a programmer I can also work with our DBAs directly to help them troubleshoot, with our weblogic folks to help them get it functioning correctly, with other teams to get things working. Everything revolves around getting everything to play nice and how all the systems interact at a high level. I generally learn how everything works, not from some class or a book but by reverse engineering what it is I see. I am self taught in what I do and know at work. I understand how web servers work because I reverse engineered the tomcat source code and followed it from request to displaying the page. I did this because I had a problem and this is what it took to figure it out.

The ENTP is a programmer, to him "high level" is all the programming concepts and patterns. Deciding which one to use and how to bring them together is the detail. What conventions and standards are we gonna follow and choose. He likes structure and he likes creating that structure. To me high level is, we have the database structure, we have the programming structure, all the structures and to play with each structure to get them all to work nicely. I learn each structure instead of create them, then I can focus on how they interact together.

Yesteday I was complimented by an NFP. Her words were "You are like a snow plow that gets me through traffic after I have been sitting for hours stuck." She came to me for help and within 10 minutes I had it solved. I understand the structure of visual studio, the structure of how our reporting server interacts through the web pages, how the internet works in the background, and I could jump from structure to structure with ease and know exactly what parts are having problems. To me this is high level. She was half way done explaining the issue, as I was jumping from structure to structure while she was explaining, when I already figured it out and it took me 10 minutes to actually do it and provide her with the fix and then explain to her what I did to fix it. The process of jumping from structure to structure problem solving was to confusing to explain as she doesnt understand how everything works in the background.


Our managers know the health care system at a high level, I want to know the different structures of the system. The system is not healthcare, but the technical side of getting things done from request to result.

At my job, if the weblogic person cant do something I could take over, if the DBA cant, I could take over, etc.

In your example with the INTJ I would not be good at getting that "feeling" but anytime a problem comes up I could easily provide a workaround or a possible solution to fix it even if it means changing the way other things interact with your box.



Kalach, none of this comes out in real life, I just do it. I dont chart, I just act. Here I am really digging into how I act, why I do what I do. In life I just see the problem and the solution pops up and I act on it. I dont chart the path, I execute the path and the path is up to be changed along the process.

 

[Thalassa]

Very often, the ENTP comment may strike me exactly the way it does another ENFP, but I will feel a surge of frustration, then question it. I stop, logically distance myself from the emotion, and then use Te to pick apart the observation/critique offered by the entp. I do the best I can to fairly evaluate and understand their perception, and then understand the mechanics of Fi-why is it working this way, what does it seem like externally, as a rational Te explanation will justify the foreign Fi behavior much better than a Te bitchslap. There were a few times in our wall convo OMT, that I had to take a deep breath and a day or so, to let the Te work it's magic.

I live surrounded by ENTPs, so I have to remind myself that when they pick up the sharp probing tone in a written format here, it is the same thing I actually much enjoy in a verbal conversation. Although, my entp did once poke me quite hard in an Fi/Ti convo. I had to leave the room and give it a day.

That's the thing. I don't particularly like it IRL either. I've known at least two ENTP males, and while there's something initially very attractive about them (charming, smart, etc.) they always end up behaving in a way that makes me want to go *face palm.* Of course, IRL it doesn't make me hate them or anything, but it does make me want to keep my distance, and usually with a bit of an eye-roll.

Getting Fi poked is extremely painful for an ENFP. I think you are inadvertantly attacking the people we have decided form part of our Fi group when you do so, thus you provoking a Te rampage of hell-all subconscious. As can be seen by Marm and Amar, ENFPs WILL NOT back down once Te is evoked.

Ha ha, yeah.

ENTPs, of all the types, seem the most disturbed by the Fi manifestations-it feels violating to them and even offensive. Also-when I question them about specifics Fi manifestations in their lives, I dont really exhibit the behaviors that disturb them the most-many of us on the board may not. Yet those behaviors ARE attributable to Fi.

Much like many observations I made about my ENTP crush last year that were attributable to tert Fe, yet that doesnt mean the ENTPs here do those things or act like him. However the ENTPs tended to revert to a herd like ENTP defense mode-just like the Fi users are doing now.

I dunno, hope some of the above gibberish is of use.

I appreciate ENTPs on this board because sometimes we have interesting conversations, and more usually because they're being witty and funny. At the same time, I feel no impulse to be tolerant and baby-sit their verbal bullshit. Like how OMT was asking us to just admit we were wrong...about something he was making up and having issues about. They're very silver tongued and clever, and I see right through it for some reason. I know when Simulated World is bullshitting (though I do find him much more tolerable and generally likable than many other ENTPs on here - my other two favorites are TeslaShock and Entropie who usually entertain me and bother me hardly ever at all, TS and Ent both seem to use their tert Fe for good instead of bad).

I think it's worth mentioning that OMT is studying to be a lawyer, and he twists his words just like one. Most ENTPs do, that I've noticed, and I just don't feel that impulse or obligation to hold their hand and try to build bridges with them when they're clearly bullshitting and provoking.

 

[Thalassa]

It's like the groundhog on Groundhog Day: if he sees his shadow, he'll go back inside and it'll be 6 more weeks of winter for you.

Awwwww.

If there's an INTJ in your life from whom you're getting this "being tested" feeling, my advice would be, "be gentle." The easiest mistake would be that he shows a sliver of Fi to you, and you quickly snap him up and love him and squeeze him and call him George, you're so happy to see it.

But that's what ENFPs do...

 

[sculpting]

That's the thing. I don't particularly like it IRL either. I've known at least two ENTP males, and while there's something initially very attractive about them (charming, smart, etc.) they always end up behaving in a way that makes me want to go *face palm.* Of course, IRL it doesn't make me hate them or anything, but it does make me want to keep my distance, and usually with a bit of an eye-roll.

Funny, this seems to be where I deviate a bit from other enfps-I love the verbal sparring, the debate, the arguments. I actually thrive on it and seek it out. I seek discord as a way to find the truth.

During undergrad I had an entp best friend and an INFJ bf (although I endlessly offended the INFJ as I kept trying to debate her religious beliefs).
I hung out with a herd of entp physicists-four guys and a girl and another several entp chemists. In grad school I had another entp bf and an INTJ bf as well as labs of entps.

Once working I promptly found another ENTP bf-again a girl. Last year was the first time i tried to date one-bad move. Lots of entps still around, but Fe pulls us apart nowdays except for those I am very close to.

 

[Heart&Brain]

Funny, this seems to be where I deviate a bit from other enfps-I love the verbal sparring, the debate, the arguments. I actually thrive on it and seek it out. I seek discord as a way to find the truth.

Oh HP, you are definitely not alone! I have always loved verbal sparring. Maybe not always, but at least since the age of 9-10 years I've felt the joy of intellectual discussions.
And looking back, I've almost always found it a huge relief (yeah, tertiary Te...) to discuss with T's as they hardly ever mix up rational disagreement, witty puns and relentless insistency with personal attacks. The sharper I get, the more they beam - it's so liberating! At least for an ENFP fearful of hurting anybody.

The last couple of years public debate is even becoming part of my work life, which suits me better than I thought...

And while I don't know other confirmed ENFPs IRL, the two that I guess share my type are very much into debate as well.
It could be due to the E. INFPs I know don't seek debate. Though, if they do get agitated enough about a subject to actually raise their voice and debate you, you know you must have overstepped / overlooked something important. Beware.

Anyway, perhaps unlike ENTPs (who I find very, very inspiring to discuss with, btw.) I've never got the impression that ENFPs will do it for the sport alone. The issue discussed has to have an emotional or ethical importance.


PS. Eh-um... my ex-husband, father of my kids, is ISTP too. It seems we have a trend of (young?) ENFPs being into ISTPs. Maybe we should make a thread about this - sometimes quite disastrous - combo?
Come to think of it, I read somewhere that ISTPs are the type most easily being confused with INTJ. Never fully understood why that would be the case, but I must admit those two types come up quite a bit in serious ENFP tales of romance.