[ENFP] ENFP+INTJ=Disasterous Combo o' love

[onemoretime]

I wanna know what love iiiiiissss... I want youuu to shooooww meeeee....

 

[Kalach]

Do you even know, comprehend, realize what LOVE is?!?!

"Just sex" my ass!!!

"Almost like actual connection"!?!?!!?

I honestly feel so sorry for you, for all that you do not know.

How real, and beautiful connecting via making love with your significant other feels.

:sad:

I could try to describe it, but, alas it is inexplicable.

But, I assure you, it is soooooooooo very much more than you *think* and *theorize* it is!!!

Wake up.

To properly dismiss these ideas you have to be able to say I am not describing real experience. You have to be able to say I am so far out of touch with myself that I'm not capable of representing my own interests. This would be a mean suggestion, the meaner for being based on merely not recognising my interests as different in kind from and less desirable than your own.





(And `"Just sex" my ass!!!' needs a comma.)

 

[onemoretime]

(And `"Just sex" my ass!!!' needs a comma.)

No, it needs two fewer parentheses.

 

[Kalach]

I'm willing to overlook some Si details and press others for the opportunity to be lewd.



Hello Se, I've been missing you.

 

[Thalassa]

Q

Sapienne said it earlier and I didnt catch the significance. Fi is highly kinesthetic and tactile. Sapienne talked about how important the physical touching plays in her relationship. I would suggest that might be very important in building the Ne/Se trust over the permenance of Fi.


My mind flutters endlessly across all boundaries, imagines all possibilities, but my lips, my hands, my body, my kisses, caresses, all lay here in the present with the person I am with. Every touch, every caress, every kiss, builds into a historical ruleset that exemplifies and amplifies the initial Fi connection. Sound right Sapienne? This may be why we enfps seem kinda easy, yet in reality a one night stand can feel like being discarded. Part of sharing Fi was in sharing that physical part of ourselves. I'd suggest this directly links to our partner's need for the actual physical Se concrete reality.

This is all so true.

I am going to go have a beer now. Wait its 7 am. I am going to dump some vodka in my coffee. You guys make me emo.

 

[onemoretime]

I'm willing to overlook some Si details and press others for the opportunity to be lewd.



Hello Se, I've been missing you.

And by parentheses, I meant apostrophes. snow day means drinking

"Just sex" my ass!!!

Lulz.

 

[sculpting]

I am 95% positive my dad is INTJ, there is just a distinct S/N difference between him and the ISTJs I know. I get along much better mentally with INTJs then I do with ISTJs. I dont remember how long they have been married, but I am 29 so it is longer then that and they are still together.

Poki your just a pup! I thought you were older for some reason. My ex istp had an intj dad. They fought badly when he was a teen but have grown to be comfortable now.

And you know I was describing an Si demand, right?

no I am a little slow on the uptake most days. It's that IQ issue.
As my ENTP says "you know life sucks right?"

I wanna know what love iiiiiissss... I want youuu to shooooww meeeee....

This sounds great and all but I tried this in the past and my inferior Si tells me it didnt work out so well. Sorry onemoretime, my mom says I cant talk to ENTP men anymore.

beer anyone?

K has some very good points about Ne and Ni having to take turns. I am always fascinated by how different people will naturally use the functions to different strengths.

I use more Ne than anyone I know IRL, except for one ENTP man. My ENTP and I will often sit and talk about how it sucks to be able to see things other people can't. You want to call the others stupid, but in reality it is an N/S diff. So we sit, forsee the future, watch the future become reality and try not to say "I told you so".

It's funny as she once said I was smarter than her. But it wasnt Ti smart, it was NeTe scope she meant. In my mind things fall into very elaborate connected visual patterns but it is very difficult to explain them. Yet I can see how they all connect and weave together. I just cant understand why others cannot "see" them. It's obvious, blatant, how can you not see it? This weird NeTe way of perception combined with the abrasiveness of Te-well, haha, I NeTe forsee being pretty fucking lonely. It is incompatible with the texture of society.

From this perspective, imagine a strong Ni and strong Ne user trying to "see" together. K is totally right. They will never see the same thing, thus will never communicate effectively. Disaster-much like this thread.

So perhaps as a heavy Ni user, K's best match would be a fairly light Ne ENFP with a lot of Fi, or even an ESFP. I can see how this would work out okay as they would perceive in different worlds and thus avoid conflict in the day to day. also they would want to avoid having the same areas of interest as to reduce conflict.

It would be interesting to hear how other enfp/intj couples handle this. Also of value to understand the same from the infj/entp perspective.

(I was lying about the beer. If only I had one.)

 

[Kalach]

Values.

Ni+Fi and Fi+Si.

Is that where values come from? Interaction with the world counts, of course, but the locus is i. Is it?


Anyone know how to say it in people-speak?

 

[the state i am in]

values are part of inner direction, and learning, and interpreting past experience via introversion. but it's also just how there is some sort of motive and purpose floating around in the system as the sum of all forces operative in a specific moment. ego is a big part of it/ enneagram relating is as big as anything. and the sx/so/sp instincts have a lot to do with space and balancing one's own energies.

 

[SillySapienne]

(And `"Just sex" my ass!!!' needs a comma.)

Oh, no, you didn't!!!

 

[Wonkavision]

Yeah, I know, right, this intuitive connection making, picturing of a possible world, it's all just playing with air, isn't it. It's only real if you get the actual experience, in detail, from many angles, making up a library of experiences to draw understanding from, yeah. That's how you learn what's possible. You can't really know anything until you get the experience, amirite buddies?!

LOL. Good one, Kalach.

Your sarcasm is awesome, even if we ENFPs are the butt of your joke.

 

[Thalassa]

I wanna know what love iiiiiissss... I want youuu to shooooww meeeee....

I think this thread needs more 80's music

[YOUTUBE="gz2cUX0CNA8"]Showing You[/YOUTUBE]

Because

[YOUTUBE="khm0p3l6x2Q"]I've Been in Love Before[/YOUTUBE]

and

[YOUTUBE="CmR65FHcJ6s"]I Just Died in Your Arms Tonight[/YOUTUBE]

 

[Kalach]

[youtube=lfbwBdaSanw]I'm beginning to Se the light[/youtube]

 

[SillySapienne]

YouTube - Radiohead - Climbing Up The Walls

I am the key to the lock in your house
That keeps your toys in the basement.
And if you get too far inside
You'll only see my reflection.

It's always best when the candle's out,
I am the pick in the ice.
Do not cry out or hit the alarm,
You know we're friends 'til we die.

And either way you turn
I'll be there
Open up your skull
I'll be there
Climbing up the walls

It's always best when the light is off,
It's always better on the outside.
Fifteen blows to the back of your head,
Fifteen blows to your mind.

So lock the kids up safe tonight
And shut the eyes in the cupboard.
I've got the smell of a local man
Who's got the loneliest feeling.

That either way he turns - I'll be there
Open up your skull - I'll be there
Climbing up the walls

Climbing up the walls
Climbing up the walls

 

[Kalach]

^ yeah, that's a horrible song, isn't it. The ghost of sensing as a mauling phantasm in the intuition.

[youtube=b5--Sje98jI]The Original Hair and Mustache Band[/youtube]
Paul Simon had the campest eyebrows in show bidniz.

 

[SillySapienne]

^ love that song!

Puts me in a positive mood, for some reason.

 

[Kalach]

Introverted intuition, the past and introverted sensing.

It seems strange to say Ni is about the past. But is it? Is it more akin to Si than I previously thought? I have wondered if that terrible man, State, is not right.

Ni does draw on the past. How? Why? I dunno. But it does. I observe this in myself for example by observing that with all this theorising on typological relationships, I almost never make speculations about types I have little experience with.

But introverted intuition is not bound to the past. It seeks to be free of the past. There is no substantial comfort to be found in repetition, for example. Indeed, repetition is oftentimes substantially distasteful. So, Ni is hungry for novelty, perhaps as hungry as Ne. But not in the same way. Ni is certainly not in-the-moment. So what novelty does it seek?

Observe a fault people find with INTJs sometimes, that we frequently will, without recognising it, shift perspective on some issue and claim to have been right all along. That is the novelty Ni seeks, novelty of perspective. The new aspect or nuance or connection in the old issue. The depth of connection to other forms. Ni seeks that novelty. It seeks that freedom.

Thus, observe, Ni-speak looks like Si-speak, it looks like the statement of a worldview that lays down the law, the rules on what is and is not. But this misses an aspect of Ni, that introverted intuition draws on what was and what is and then seeks to be free of it.


^ and that's an example right there of introverted intuition seeking to be free. What was, what is, is discussed, and then a new perspective is generated to change the rules and provide freedom.


What freedom? The freedom to believe that this whole thread has NOT been just an explanation of why some relationship cannot work.

 

[Litvyak]

Ni does draw on the past. How? Why? I dunno. But it does.

Doesn't it draw from the collective unconsciousness?
That would explain the similarities between Si and Ni.

 

[uumlau]

Introverted intuition, the past and introverted sensing.

It seems strange to say Ni is about the past. But is it? Is it more akin to Si than I previously thought? I have wondered if that terrible man, State, is not right.

Ni does draw on the past. How? Why? I dunno. But it does. I observe this in myself for example by observing that with all this theorising on typological relationships, I almost never make speculations about types I have little experience with.

But introverted intuition is not bound to the past. It seeks to be free of the past. There is no substantial comfort to be found in repetition, for example. Indeed, repetition is oftentimes substantially distasteful. So, Ni is hungry for novelty, perhaps as hungry as Ne. But not in the same way. Ni is certainly not in-the-moment. So what novelty does it seek?

Observe a fault people find with INTJs sometimes, that we frequently will, without recognising it, shift perspective on some issue and claim to have been right all along. That is the novelty Ni seeks, novelty of perspective. The new aspect or nuance or connection in the old issue. The depth of connection to other forms. Ni seeks that novelty. It seeks that freedom.

Thus, observe, Ni-speak looks like Si-speak, it looks like the statement of a worldview that lays down the law, the rules on what is and is not. But this misses an aspect of Ni, that introverted intuition draws on what was and what is and then seeks to be free of it.


^ and that's an example right there of introverted intuition seeking to be free. What was, what is, is discussed, and then a new perspective is generated to change the rules and provide freedom.


What freedom? The freedom to believe that this whole thread has NOT been just an explanation of why some relationship cannot work.

I think you may be attributing much to Ni that isn't properly part of Ni.

There is indeed a similarity between Si and Ni. Si remembers facts and details. Ni remembers patterns and relationships, absent details. The reason, I believe, that Ni seems spooky, even to ourselves, is that we're remembering patterns that we don't recall remembering: the patterns we remember often have no associated details with which to ground them. The patterns are thus not "bound by" the past, and are applied, sometimes quite inappropriately, to similar patterns in our present.

However, I would not ascribe the emotional content, e.g., a desire for freedom and novelty, to Ni, per se. I can see the connection, but I would describe it more as a tendency, not a "hunger." Ni happens to find its most useful applications by taking lessons learned in one context and applying them to another context, seemingly unrelated. Even if its analysis is completely wrong, the very different perspective often provides insights no one else has. As an INTJ in particular, one will immediately notice that one's intuition is totally off base, use Te to compare and evaluate, and then build a completely new intuitive (Ni) picture that is amazingly complete and accurate. The new intuitive perspective is applied going forward.

The more experiences we have, the more we use our Ni, the greater the library of patterns stored up in Ni, and the more insightful our intuition. Thus it is like Si, because it is memory, it is prior experience, it is from our past.

 

[SillySapienne]

Sorry, waaaaay too early for me to decode Kalach's post, but for all of y'all who are interested in hearing, hahaha, no, reading, a REAL LIFE example, not necessarily demonstrative of an ENFP/INTJ=Disasterous combo, but one that shows how things may go shaky at times due to our type differences, (and don't worry, this example has a happy ending ).

Anyhow...

Yesterday, I came over to my boyfriend's house, and yes, for those who're not privy, he's an INTJ, and I was in an especially good and bubbly mood, earlier, while waiting for a special, a very special, waxing appointment I meandered my way into a used CD/DVD/ store and found a relatively obscure film he had once mentioned he'd love to find and own, "score", I thought, also I got a lot of shit done yesterday, and he and I were texting and talking back and forth throughout the day, and I was in I'm-in-lurrrrrve mode...

Side note: He has a ravenous, insatiable appetite, as in, he eats like a sumo wrestler yet he somewhat miraculously maintains this perfectly lean/muscular physique, hahahha, lucky bastard!

So, while out, I picked up a burrito, went home, cut it in half, ate the half, and then saved the other half for him, potentially, or for myself, if he didn't want it. (I hate wasting food).

So, after I ate I packed a whole bunch of crap in my car, including the left over half burrito, that I put it in a Borders bag, don't ask, and 30 minutes later I was at his house, dressed cute, beaming.

After dropping all my bags to the floor, I took out the Borders bag, and said something to the effect of, "hey, I brought you a burrito, are you hungry?"

To which he replied, errrrr, and reacted with a look, along with a look of disdain/distate.

Something about this reaction immediately plummeted my feelings, I thought, why couldn't he just say, "oh, thanks babe, I don't really feel like that, right now", or " I'm not in the mood for Mexican", to which I would've replied with, "cool, cool, maybe I or you will have it later" and then I would have gone on with my happy-go-lucky self.

Ugh, it was something about his grossed out face, his absolute lack of appreciation that turned me off and angry, and then, when I was peeing, he had the audacity to come up to me and show me the burrito and say, "it looks disgusting!!!"

Then, I was so pissed and hurt that I almost cried.

Dude, I just brought him this food because I know he's always hungry, I WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN OFFENDED AT ALL, if he did not like, and, or feel like the food I brought him.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

^ That was the start of the fight.

But, we talked it through, and it basically came out that for him, it takes time to process things, (even something as small as whether or not to eat half a burrito), and more than that it takes time for him to formulate his thought processes into words, unlike me, he can't immediately process/spew his thoughts out.

Understanding this, my feelings were still hurt, I told him about the Valentine's day gift I excitedly found for him, I waxed a very sensitive area for him, and I brought over half a burrito thinking, hey, he might be hungry, and I felt shot down.

<A lot more discussion occurrs>

Then, as a joke, I said something like, "Oh, whatever, I don't need you, it was nice knowing you, thanks for the company, and your c*ck, oh, your friend Max is really cute, I think I'm gonna go call him, blah, blah, blah,"

Basically, in order to TOTALLY LIGHTEN THE MOOD,

I was joking how I could and would get me a new shiny boyfriend.

(Seriously, my tone was so light and fluffy, and incredibly sarcastic/silly).

Then, much later in the night, he sits me down.

(I could tell after this verbal altercation he was a bit distant, fyi)

And he tells me how what I "jokingly" said was not funny, and was in fact a threat, one in which lends for a lack of trust in me and a distancing in the relationship.

At first, I was like, WTF!?!!?



As I pleaded to him, "you couldn't tell I was absolutely JOKING!?!??!"

Because, I was joking. :/

Taunting, in a way, but not mean-spirited at all!!!

But after some thought, I could understand his point, it was both a joke and a threat, and threatening your boyfriend, especially your INTJ boyfriend, even jokingly, that you are going to leave him, when you don't mean it, is a definite NONO!!!

When he told me that my saying those things made him lose trust in me... :sad:

If only he knew just how freakin' down I am for him, and if anything, my threat was a response to his response to the misbegotten burrito incident, which he fully understood.

So, very long story short, trust is a HUGE thing/issue with INTJs, methinks.

And, that's fair, because the more you trust someone the more comfortable you feel, the more safe.

We ended the discussion on a positive note, though.

INTJs + ENFPs = Incredapowers of discussion!!!

We discuss things through, without ego, concede and apologize when we're sincerely wrong, and then, of course....

Make up.



And when we make up we become even closer, in an intimate way, wow, which is fucking awesome.

(Like, serious soul connecting embraces/looks/kisses)

Hahahaha, and there is always phenomenal make-up sex, too!