[ENFP] ENFP+INTJ=Disasterous Combo o' love

[SillySapienne]

Let it also been known that I have been called many, many things.

And, that I am many, many things.

But one thing I have NEVER been called is selfish.

Never.

 

[Virtual ghost]

Could you elaborate on that AO? I keep hearing about how NFPs are generally more "selfish" and "self-absorbed" than Fe users, and I guess I'm having a hard understanding what is meant by that.

Well I am not sure either. But to me NFP is more likely to withhold parts of it self from others. They can be friendly but there will always be some distance between them and other people. What changes when you are 1 on 1 with NFP. Or in very close and friendly atmosphere.

Fi is not necessarily more self-absorbed in love. Actually, the way Fi sees it sometimes, instead of following social convention or feeling a need to spread graciousness to the entire group, Fi's "selfishness" can mean that the Fi-user channels a very focused love into specific people - like lovers, close friends, family members - in an empathetic, devoted way. Fi love can actually be quite intense.

I think you mistake what Fi v. Fe even means. It's as those you're defining it as Fi = feelings for self and Fe = feelings for others, and that's not what it is. What you're saying about ENTP/INFJ v. ENFP/INTJ doesn't even sound logical to me.

Fi can definitely be more self-concerned, and I guess self-absorbed, but it's that we're self-reflective thinking about how things feel, how things are, how things aught to be.

Is Fi selfish?!?!

Hell no!!!

Fi is an intrinsic moral compass, it's the very definition of empathy.

We are all human beings with incredibly similar basic feelings and behaviors.

The more you know yourself, the more you understand others.

Fi is self awareness.

I know what Fi and Fe mean it is just that Fe is usually just Fe while there can be much larger differences between Fi and another Fi. What makes it harder to balance it out. (if we presume that the entire function order is correct)

You both got me wrong. I am not saything that it can work very very well. I am only saying that it seem so me that ENTP and INFJ will have a less bumpy ride. (actually someone can even argue that this is a bad thing)

 

[Laurie]

Let it also been known that I have been called many, many things.

And, that I am many, many things.

But one thing I have NEVER been called is selfish.

Never.

I have

 

[SillySapienne]

I have

No one's perfect, I guess.

I've been called Hitler more times than I can count, if that makes you feel any better.

 

[Virtual ghost]

Let it also been known that I have been called many, many things.

And, that I am many, many things.

But one thing I have NEVER been called is selfish.

Never.

I am afraid you are only proving me right with this comment. Since it looks that I have just hit your Fi in a bad way. What could have a very bad consequences in the case we actually know each other.

 

[SillySapienne]

I am afraid you are only proving me right with this comment. Since it looks that I have just hit your Fi in a bad way. What could have a very bad consequences in the case we actually know eachother.

Awwww, don't get your ascot all in a twist.

My Fi is fine, calibrated and dandy, right now.

Who needs a fuzzy-wubbie-bubbly hug?!?!?!

I think you do!!!

(Though, very most likely you'll reject it)

I'm gonna give it to you anyway!!!

 

[Virtual ghost]

Awwww, don't get your ascot all in a twist.

My Fi is fine, calibrated and dandy, right now.

Who needs a fuzzy-wubbie-bubbly hug?!?!?!

I think you do!!!

(Though, very most likely you'll reject it)

I'm gonna give it to you anyway!!!

I know, what is because you know what common sense is.



However this is the core of why have a problem with NFs in communication.

If I reject the hug that means that my Fi got triggered. What is not the case here. So no, I don't mind.

 

[sculpting]

Fi seems selfish on the surface. It speaks in terms of "I". It displays pain/discomfort on the surface. By externalizing the pain it signals a need for help. This externalization is the only way another Fi user can observe thier pain, "mirror" the pain internally and respond accordingly to aid the one in need.

However Fi hurts and is energy intensive to use-thus is reserved for the limited ones that the Fi user cares for and allows to see it. By allowing them "inside" it forces us to feel EVERYTHING they feel-ouch. That is an incredible weakness to expose to just anyone. Having too much Ne disables this though as you cant screen out the external pain of others. Sucks, cause then you turn off Fi instead.

Fe seems much more open, loving, speaks in terms of "we" and the group. It is very externally caring. It forms the basis of a social obligatory network of reciprocal behavior. Fe users form social bonds to insure sharing of resources should times grow rough. I scratch your back, you scratch mine sort of thing. That seems to be the underlying biology, although on the surface the Fe users actually seem to feel profoundly caring-ie if you ask them, they feel profoundly caring.

so from a biological perspective Fi is self sacrificial whereas Fe is self preserving. A new twist on how you define selfishness.

Anyways:
What happens when Ne/Si just cant perceive the Ni/Se vision? It's like stepping off a cliff, being blind,ie requiring absolute trust. How does that develop?

Si develops trust of Ni based upon a past history of performance.

How does Se develop trust of Ne?

 

[Thalassa]

No one's perfect, I guess.

I've been called Hitler more times than I can count, if that makes you feel any better.

ME TOO!

 

[the state i am in]

Si develops trust of Ni based upon a past history of performance.

How does Se develop trust of Ne?

Ne takes away Se anxiety. Ne optimism frees the present from the huge and terrifying past and future. it just puts the Ni dom in the moment, and optimistic about the future. we trust it once we realize that it works, that the judgment function of the other person has a viable/better cost analysis strategy than we do. if they don't, then we're gonna reject it, and a general cautious stance takes a while to get the message when it would work better than what we are doing (but it's not perfect! or airtight! or complete!).

with my entp friends, i realize that their judgment plus Ne optimism generates a lot of happiness and good feeling and problem-solving in ways that can free me up to be at my best. we Ni types just get weighed down with too many problems, foresee too many negative outcomes, difficulties, the tightrope seems too impossibly thin and twisted to ever successfully walk it. Ne helps us branch out rather than demand a single straight line.

 

[Thalassa]

I know what Fi and Fe mean it is just that Fe is usually just Fe while there can be much larger differences between Fi and another Fi. What makes it harder to balance it out. (if we presume that the entire function order is correct)

I disagree. The "sincerity" of Fi appeals to me in other people while the even-handedness of Fe makes me mildly suspicious. I love knowing where I stand with another person. The reason why Fi can work together, despite differing value systems (as long as the value systems aren't insanely, wildly different) is because of that sense of genuine connection.


I say this as someone who had an ISTJ father, and has been in a LTR with an eSFP man in the past...there is something about Fi that feels very...genuine to me. Fi makes me feel certain of another person's loyalty. Fe makes me wonder what they're really thinking.

I've had Fe doms/aux complain that my affections for others are too particular. I am also slightly suspicious of the sincerity of my own ENFJ sister.

I know this sounds anecdotal - and as an ENFP I guess I have a very hard time not sounding anecdotal - but the reason why two Fi users can be good together is because of a mutual understanding of the basic emotional approach to life, despite any shades of difference in value systems.

I don't know if this makes any sense at all. I think it's also necessary to point out that Fi can be very nurturing, but it's just not always in the conventional way you might expect. It's like tailoring your nurture specifically for a particular person.

 

[Virtual ghost]

I disagree. The "sincerity" of Fi appeals to me in other people while the even-handedness of Fe makes me mildly suspicious. I love knowing where I stand with another person. The reason why Fi can work together, despite differing value systems (as long as the value systems aren't insanely, wildly different) is because of that sense of genuine connection.


I say this as someone who had an ISTJ father, and has been in a LTR with an eSFP man in the past...there is something about Fi that feels very...genuine to me. Fi makes me feel certain of another person's loyalty. Fe makes me wonder what they're really thinking.

I've had Fe doms/aux complain that my affections for others are too particular. I am also slightly suspicious of the sincerity of my own ENFJ sister.

I know this sounds anecdotal - and as an ENFP I guess I have a very hard time not sounding anecdotal - but the reason why two Fi users can be good together is because of a mutual understanding of the basic emotional approach to life, despite any shades of difference in value systems.

I don't know if this makes any sense at all. I think it's also necessary to point out that Fi can be very nurturing, but it's just not always in the conventional way you might expect. It's like tailoring your nurture specifically for a particular person.

True.


But we are discussing Fi+Fi vs Fe+Fe instead of Fi+Fe.

 

[sculpting]

Ne takes away Se anxiety. Ne optimism frees the present from the huge and terrifying past and future. it just puts the Ni dom in the moment, and optimistic about the future. we trust it once we realize that it works, that the judgment function of the other person has a viable/better cost analysis strategy than we do. if they don't, then we're gonna reject it, and a general cautious stance takes a while to get the message when it would work better than what we are doing (but it's not perfect! or airtight! or complete!).

with my entp friends, i realize that their judgment plus Ne optimism generates a lot of happiness and good feeling and problem-solving in ways that can free me up to be at my best. we Ni types just get weighed down with too many problems, foresee too many negative outcomes, difficulties, the tightrope seems too impossibly thin and twisted to ever successfully walk it. Ne helps us branch out rather than demand a single straight line.

mmmm...I asked my entp how she used Ne with her INTJ boss and his Se.

She said the trick was in the data... For him the data was the concrete Se result. She would identify patterns, do a bit of pre-work to identify the Ne pattern (ie generate data when he wasnt looking), then sit and draw the lines connecting the concrete data to places where she saw the Ne patterns. This could take some back and forth-but he could not deny the concrete results in front of him, thus it legitimized the Ne perception.

ah, you speak words of wisdom state!

 

[sculpting]

I disagree. The "sincerity" of Fi appeals to me in other people while the even-handedness of Fe makes me mildly suspicious. I love knowing where I stand with another person. The reason why Fi can work together, despite differing value systems (as long as the value systems aren't insanely, wildly different) is because of that sense of genuine connection.


I say this as someone who had an ISTJ father, and has been in a LTR with an eSFP man in the past...there is something about Fi that feels very...genuine to me. Fi makes me feel certain of another person's loyalty. Fe makes me wonder what they're really thinking..

I recognize this Fi authenticity and honesty. I also find it very appealing.

I think the Fe users see it differently-I have had many entps really be distrustful of heavy Fi users. They say it feels very fake, yet dissolve under heavy Fe usage that honestly sickens me. Heavy Fe feels fake and overly sugar coated to me. Yet logically I understand it is real, and the Fe user means well, so I sort of have to work my way around the weird-icky feeling I get with it.

Try giving an ENTP the full-on Fi google sweet stare. They think you just received a head injury. They will actually ask "Are you okay?" Its quite funny.

 

[Thalassa]

True.


But we are discussing Fi+Fi vs Fe+Fe instead of Fi+Fe.

Yes, and I'm making a case for Fi + Fi.

 

[Kalach]

Truth? About if a type combo is a disasterous combo? Surely you see that as a subjective idea. How could it hold 'truth' across the board at all?

"Deciding truth" in INTJ-speak is deciding which action to take. It seems like this would amount to asking the ENFP to play along. But since "the truth" was perceived using this individual's intuition, deciding which action to take seems to amount to asking the ENFP to forgo his intuition. In function-speak, asking the ENFP to reduce their Ne to an Se role.

And vice versa. One or the other intuitive gets the short end of the perceptual involvement stick.

They presumably must learn to share somehow. And presumably somehow get over the fact that neither side has that much connection to the physical world, and doesn't naturally "play along" in the way the other expects.

 

[SillySapienne]

They presumably must learn to share somehow.

Yes, this is what people tend to do in relationships.

And presumably somehow get over the fact that neither side has that much connection to the physical world, and doesn't naturally "play along" in the way the other expects.

Wow, you must not play much, or not know how to play, and you definitely don't know how much fun it is and can be to play with someone who is compatible with you, (in the dominant intuitive sense) yet different, this, actually, makes the playing that much more intense, challenging and exciting!!!

Once again, too much theorizing here, Kalach, and way too little experience.

Get out, find a girl, a woman, or a man, if that's your preference and actually take the experience in sans your theoretical predictions of how it ought to be or play out.

You never know, you might be blown away and have to go back to your theoretical drawing board and rework a few ideas.

And, that, my friend, would not be such a bad thing at all, methinks.

 

[Kalach]

Yeah, I know, right, this intuitive connection making, picturing of a possible world, it's all just playing with air, isn't it. It's only real if you get the actual experience, in detail, from many angles, making up a library of experiences to draw understanding from, yeah. That's how you learn what's possible. You can't really know anything until you get the experience, amirite buddies?!



Alternatively, [curse words], a thread that describes itself and the participants don't even know.

 

[the state i am in]

Yeah, I know, right, this intuitive connection making, picturing of a possible world, it's all just playing with air, isn't it. It's only real if you get the actual experience, in detail, from many angles, making up a library of experiences to draw understanding from, yeah. That's how you learn what's possible. You can't really know anything until you get the experience, amirite buddies?!

Alternatively, [curse words], a thread that describes itself and the participants don't even know.

esfp dual, meet kalach. to be continued?

 

[sculpting]

She said the trick was in the data... For him the data was the concrete Se result. She would identify patterns, do a bit of pre-work to identify the Ne pattern (ie generate data when he wasnt looking), then sit and draw the lines connecting the concrete data to places where she saw the Ne patterns. This could take some back and forth-but he could not deny the concrete results in front of him, thus it legitimized the Ne perception.

This worked for data-Te/Ti sharing to build trust in the Se/Ne interfaces.

Wow, you must not play much, or not know how to play, and you definitely don't know how much fun it is and can be to play with someone who is compatible with you, (in the dominant intuitive sense) yet different, this, actually, makes the playing that much more intense, challenging and exciting!!!

Once again, too much theorizing here, Kalach, and way too little experience.

How do you translate and build Se/Ne trust across an Fi connection? AO mentioned ENFPs/INTJs seem a little unstable maybe...How can you trust Fi, the delicate INTJ variety, to something as fluttery as an ENFP? The ENFP is in the past-future and spends fleeting moments in the present.

Sapienne said it earlier and I didnt catch the significance. Fi is highly kinesthetic and tactile. Sapienne talked about how important the physical touching plays in her relationship. I would suggest that might be very important in building the Ne/Se trust over the permenance of Fi.

Yeah, I know, right, this intuitive connection making, picturing of a possible world, it's all just playing with air, isn't it. It's only real if you get the actual experience, in detail, from many angles, making up a library of experiences to draw understanding from, yeah. That's how you learn what's possible. You can't really know anything until you get the experience, amirite buddies?!

Yup! See you did understand.

My mind flutters endlessly across all boundaries, imagines all possibilities, but my lips, my hands, my body, my kisses, caresses, all lay here in the present with the person I am with. Every touch, every caress, every kiss, builds into a historical ruleset that exemplifies and amplifies the initial Fi connection. Sound right Sapienne? This may be why we enfps seem kinda easy, yet in reality a one night stand can feel like being discarded. Part of sharing Fi was in sharing that physical part of ourselves. I'd suggest this directly links to our partner's need for the actual physical Se concrete reality.

K, walk out the door, go to the beach, walk past the ESFPs playing volleyball. Walk to the edge of the beach and find the chick with a book. The sweet one who smiles and then breaks eye contact with you after a few seconds. You should be good to go. You'll need to kiss her though. Or at least hold her hand.

I am going to go have a beer now. Wait its 7 am. I am going to dump some vodka in my coffee. You guys make me emo.