[ENFP] ENFP+INTJ=Disasterous Combo o' love

[the state i am in]

T types do get this awesome befuddled look when they try to understand nf musings, at times. this kind of "what planet are you from"? look that combines a bit of skepticism with real curiosity.

our pattern comparison is not as focused, specific, and direct, but it's just as complex. it's great at pulling out the implications, and cueing up a wider range of emotional possibilities. it leaves more open-ended indefinite semantic possibility, but juggling it without any T to focus gets messy and fucking crazy.

 

[SillySapienne]

Disasterously blissful, and sublimely surprising!!!

You meet the right INTJ and he'll surprise, delight, and satisfy you in ways you've never imagined.

There is something there, this meta/physical bond; ineffable, infinitely intriguing, and above all, harmoniously magnetic that renders you speechless and in appreciative awe.

blah, blah, beauty, blah, blah, blah...

 

[Kalach]

Technically, INTJs are as airheaded as ENFPs. So I worry about how this works. Who's in charge of the flights of fancy?

I wonder, y'know, truly. Pragmatism is barely half of what we do. In a lot of ways it's the much smaller part. People seem to get off suggesting we're jumped up ISTJs somehow. Pets, of a sort.

And I am NOT pointing a finger at you, SS. Your flights of fancy are very pretty. Observe I am not S, so this can't be an Si criticism.


D'y'see now, people, d'y'see? N'z eventually demand that other people be S. Which in a convenient bizarro twist should means S'z eventually demand that everyone else be N.

However, suhtisticks say for success join an N with an N and an S with an S.



Inferior S -> something about dominant N. There's a connection between inferior anxiety and dominant something.

Or is there?

 

[sculpting]

Technically, INTJs are as airheaded as ENFPs. So I worry about how this works. Who's in charge of the flights of fancy?

I wonder, y'know, truly. Pragmatism is barely half of what we do. In a lot of ways it's the much smaller part. People seem to get off suggesting we're jumped up ISTJs somehow. Pets, of a sort.

And I am NOT pointing a finger at you, SS. Your flights of fancy are very pretty. Observe I am not S, so this can't be an Si criticism.


D'y'see now, people, d'y'see? N'z eventually demand that other people be S. Which in a convenient bizarro twist should means S'z eventually demand that everyone else be N.

However, suhtisticks say for success join an N with an N and an S with an S.



Inferior S -> something about dominant N. There's a connection between inferior anxiety and dominant something.

Or is there?

first-elaborate and explain inferior anxiety in an INTJ. What exactly is it that an INTJ fears?

wrt to N/N pairs-what does an enfp dating an enfp look like? An INTJ dating an INTJ? How does the commonality of the perceiving functions lead to shifts in pragmatism?

 

[Kalach]

I shall NOT BE DOMINATED by your Si anxieties!!!!! Details, Schmetails!

Okay, fine:

Inferior Se anxiety is the worry that we can't make something happen. That the strength is NOT present to conclude an action. The action shall be ham-fisted or awkward and fail. So perhaps it should never even be tried. Basically, inferior anxiety drives Tertiary Temptation.

And thus something about Dom pride, maybe?

Other kinds of Ns dating... I have no idea.



There can be no doubt that both being able to N-speak serves as a substantial bridge. Finding out the rest of the answer involves research with human beings touching each other and ending up crying. It would be unethical to even consider.

 

[sculpting]

There can be no doubt that both being able to N-speak serves as a substantial bridge. Finding out the rest of the answer involves research with human beings touching each other and ending up crying. It would be unethical to even consider.

TertTe is a bit of a sadist when it comes to the people puzzles NeFi must have the answer. Yummy tears ....

Anyways, I would be interested in other ENFPs view NeFi-NeFi couples. I have a 14 yo ENFP son. When we are in the same room it is somewhat like being surrounded by the living dead. We are so blissfully unaware of Se, that we run into each other, then get irritated. "Watch where you are going!" "no you watch where you are going!" with the irony that neither of us really is ever actually watching...then we get all Te pissy with each other. This could well define the 14 years of our coexisistance. like bobble headed ridiculous zombies...

The INTJ toddler walks up to me. He says "mommy. mommy. mommy. mommy. mommy..." never getting louder, faster, or mad, just persistently waiting for recognition. My INTJ father-in-law says that he recognizes he just needs to ask and eventually it will get my attention.

I often feel like an Ne inflated balloon. 95% of me actually isnt attached to reality. That last 5% that is is Si.

Si says "did you pay the amex bill on time? because if you didnt you know they will add on a big fee and ruin your credit ranking. Did you feed the pets today? They like food? Did you do the laundry? is there gas in the gas tank?"

Si cant save me from wearing my clothes on inside out-no shit, or any of the other random ass "lack of Se due to excess Ne" things I do. I think Te points Si to what it judges is truly important given the limited Si available.

I know Ni balances Ne. It serves as a mezmerising focal point for the connectivities of Ne. I have to assume Si serves an analogous role for Se. However Ne is fun-I would go so far as to suggest biologically encoded hormonally to be an endorphin rush. It is a tiny bit druglike. To tune down allows development of Fi I think, which may be reward in itself, however still with a compromise in the Ne.

Thus having Si balance Se must be the same?

 

[Kalach]

I know Ni balances Ne. It serves as a mezmerising focal point for the connectivities of Ne. I have to assume Si serves an analogous role for Se.

Puppy. Puppy. Puppy. Puppy....

Ni doesn't balance Ne.
Ni doesn't balance Ne.
Ni doesn't balance Ne.
Ni doesn't balance Ne.

I think what more likely happens if they're lucky is INTJs and ENFPs take turns. One of the partners takes the dumb guy bullet and plays straight man. They do auxiliary and tertiary as normal but let the other partner go bizarro. Or perhaps they choose areas of authority.

Or they have an N-off, the INTJ focusing, the ENFP expanding, both having sudden insight and wow everything's understood but kinda empty because, well, we reached the end point really quickly and there's kinda nothing left to do now.

^ that's probably how it works in the beginning, that sudden spark of mutual understanding that, y'know, isn't understanding really at all, just awareness of insight.

 

[sculpting]

Puppy. Puppy. Puppy. Puppy....

Ni doesn't balance Ne.
Ni doesn't balance Ne.
Ni doesn't balance Ne.
Ni doesn't balance Ne.

Have you been in my brain lately???? Hmmmmm? nooooo, I dont think soooo. So trust me when I say there is something very compellingly focusing about NiTe. Not just your variety, little panda, but all of them. It isnt the same with NiFe so you are correct, in that it isnt a pure Ne-Ni trick. I read NiTe sentences and become somewhat enthralled/entangled. lock and key style is the best analogy. Do other ENFPs do this???

Or they have an N-off, the INTJ focusing, the ENFP expanding, both having sudden insight and wow everything's understood but kinda empty because, well, we reached the end point really quickly and there's kinda nothing left to do now.

^ that's probably how it works in the beginning, that sudden spark of mutual understanding that, y'know, isn't understanding really at all, just awareness of insight.

There is never "nothing left to do" when Ne is around. Solved that problem? Off to find a new one or a new version of the old problem.... and yes, I know terrible annoying to the poor Ni you drag along.

Yup this would drive any poor INTJ to despair. I am really not sure why they would stick around when there is a whole world to dominate out there...

 

[sculpting]

perhaps this keep them around? Hmmm??? Bit o' Fi perhaps?

Yes, yes, I am off to my designated circle of hell for picking on INTJs now.... You guys should come and visit!

 

[Amargith]

Yes. Ni and Ne work brilliantly together. My SO can look at me all befuddled and amused while I'm going on a Ne-rant, till he goes..'hang on, you actually made sense there!'

And I'll go: 'I did?!! How so??'
And he'll proceed to have a brilliant thought based on the randomness i tossed out there and the connections I made for him. Then he'll start deconstructing the stuff to figure out how to do it. And I'll jump in taking care of esthetics and values and tiny little details while he charts out the main course.

 

[SillySapienne]

Puppy. Puppy. Puppy. Puppy....

Ni doesn't balance Ne.
Ni doesn't balance Ne.
Ni doesn't balance Ne.
Ni doesn't balance Ne.

I think what more likely happens if they're lucky is INTJs and ENFPs take turns. One of the partners takes the dumb guy bullet and plays straight man. They do auxiliary and tertiary as normal but let the other partner go bizarro. Or perhaps they choose areas of authority.

Or they have an N-off, the INTJ focusing, the ENFP expanding, both having sudden insight and wow everything's understood but kinda empty because, well, we reached the end point really quickly and there's kinda nothing left to do now.

^ that's probably how it works in the beginning, that sudden spark of mutual understanding that, y'know, isn't understanding really at all, just awareness of insight.

For what it's worth, I don't think Ni balances Ne, I think that the fact that we're both dom opposing Ns adds to the intrigue/pull, but it is our mutual Te/Fi-Fi/Te combo that really lends for the mutual, Damn, I fucking FEEEEEEEL you, or Damn, I totally know what you mean, attraction and YES, understanding!!!

I don't really understand Ni, nor does my SO really understand Ne, who gives a rodent's ass, what's more important is that, relatively speaking, we get each other, and pretty damn well too, I'm rarely if ever over his head and vice versa, and... that's a BIG DEAL!!!

And, regarding the flight o' fancy/airhead crap you were spouting earlier, yes, INTJs and ENFPs are both very much so in their heads, my INTJ likes to think I'm more of a space cadet than he is, but, c'mon now, at least I'm an extrovert so I have some sense of my surroundings, especially when it's highly stimulating or full o' stimulating people.

But, yeah, perhaps you're a bit right here, Kalach, but WHO CARES?!?!?!

What's so wrong with two people who can become so enraptured in themselves, or in some discussion that the outside world somehow mysteriously disappears, if you ask me, that's amore!!!

 

[sculpting]

Ah the beauty of a crackberry when you need to quote papa jung at lunch. Below are excerpts from Jung:
(Might I worship at the alter of Jung)

Papa jung on Ni:

Although his intuition may be stimulated by external objects, it does not concern itself with external possibilities but with what the external object has released within him.

(Thus Ne may have very brief moments to be the new external info that feeds into the Ni wheel o' intuition)

This image fascinates the intuitive activity; it is arrested by it, and seeks to explore every detail of it. It holds fast to the vision, observing with the liveliest interest how the picture changes, unfolds and finally fades.

(Ne turned inside out. Ne connects the external object to endless other possible objects. Ni finds one internal object and becomes fixated on that object seeking to understand everything about it.)

So the introverted intuitive moves from image to image, chasing after every possibility in the teeming womb of the unconcious, without establishing any connection between them and himself.

(Ne does the same-thus ne can be cruel in how it discards people, once the interest is past. A danger in an ne-ne relationship or anything static-boredom. Ni would be less cruel as it discards internal ideas-although could this include internal perceptions/intuitins of people?)

The perception of the images of the unconscious, produced in such inexhaustible abundance by the creative energy of life, is of course fruitless from the standpoint of utility.

(Chuckle, chuckle, no point here, just makes me giggle, given how brilliant the intjs are)

Jung then Speaks of aesthetic (Fe?) vs moral (Te?) judgement in introverted intuition.

Wrt moral judgement:

His judgement allows him to discern, though often only darkly, that he, as a man and a whole human being, is somehow involved in his vision, that it is not just an object to be perceived, but wants to participate in the life of the subject. Through this realization he feels bound to transform the vision into his own life.

This would be the inferior Se, eh? Also mentions if dived into too deeply it drives a compulsion for the sensory.

Think back upon myers-briggs being the translators:

His language is not the one currently spoken-it has become too subjective. His arguments lack the convincing power of reason.

Other tidbits of interest:
Ne focuses on external objects. If the external object is an Ni user, it becomes the focal point to connect off of?

In problem solving mode, I anticipate a loop of interaction. Each lives in their own world but cross paths every so often. Ne drags in new information to feed the Ni-annoying though it may be,but essential if the Ni is to be useful.
What may keep the Ne user from being horrifically disruptive to the Ni user may be the sense of cadence discussed before. When NeTe observes NiTe, there is a lockstep of some sort that happens.

An example:
I travelled up and down the west coast with an Entp sales rep visiting pharma companies. The intps were reserved, the entps listened to her then fixated on me, and the infj was distant.The last visit was with an intp and an intj.

The intp starts talking with the entp. I can't keep track of the Ti blah blah blah so I start to fall asleep-seriously, I couldn't stay awake. Then the intj started talking. He was staring at the corner of the ceiling as far into Ni land as you get, but not super heavy Te. Suddenly I wasn't tired but intrigued, even energized-but not with Ne, like I am with entps. I listened to him speak, would occasionally interupt, question, agree, suggest, but all in cadence.

Like a dance?

I didn't get the feeling of being off kilter or disruptive. It seemed additive in nature. His Ni didn't need excessive Ne input and seemed to serve to give Ne a path perhaps to further utilize FiTe? This is in a work context though, so not sure how this plays out in relationships. There is something weird going on here with Ne-ni. It needs further exploration.

For what it's worth, I don't think Ni balances Ne, I think that the fact that we're both dom opposing Ns adds to the intrigue/pull, but it is our mutual Te/Fi-Fi/Te combo that really lends for the mutual, Damn, I fucking FEEEEEEEL you, or Damn, I totally know what you mean, attraction and YES, understanding!!!

What is the intrigue/pull? Does it feel like a dance? I think the guts of Te/Fi allow for real understanding.

 

[SillySapienne]

What is the intrigue/pull? Does it feel like a dance? I think the guts of Te/Fi allow for real understanding.

Like I mentioned in the post that you quoted, I absolutely agree and feel that the Te/Fi allow for the real understanding for this pairing, fo sho!

The intrigue about the Ne/Ni difference is that we are both dominant intuitives but the means and ways in which we are intuitive are somewhat vastly different, and hence manifest themselves in different ways.

To be honest, I can't even explain or separate my Ne/Fi means of processing and ascertaining the world, they are that inextricably connected!!!

And, no one, as of yet has been able to explain to me in a way in which I can truly understand what the fuck Ni is!!!

Regardless, not in a typological sense, (haha, take a deep breath Kalach, please ), the fact that both an INTJ and an ENFP are DEEPLY intuitive, hence we see things deeply, we see things other people don't see, and we make these connections, whether we create them ourselves or see their existence where most people do not, now...

This, this!!!

This is where it's at.

The type, and level of conversation that I can have with my INTJ is unparalleled.



And, even though I get him, whether it be because of him, or due to his Ni, there is such an inherent complexity to him that to decipher and understand the layers and systems of layers upon layers that make him him is such a worthy and enjoyable feat, one that I hope to continue to embark on for however long our relationship will last.

Well, I'm blathering at this point, so....

Bye, for now!

 

[Zarathustra]

I don't really understand Ni, nor does my SO really understand Ne, who gives a rodent's ass, what's more important is that, relatively speaking, we get each other, and pretty damn well too, I'm rarely if ever over his head and vice versa, and... that's a BIG DEAL!!!

You're never over my head. I don't think I'm over yours much, either.

I think it definitely has something to do with the Ne-Ni dynamic, as well as Fi/Te-Te/Fi dynamic. We understand each other's auxiliary and tertiary functions because we are both Fi and Te users, and I think your externally focused intuition is like a camera, able to capture the light of my internally focused intuition.

And, regarding the flight o' fancy/airhead crap you were spouting earlier, yes, INTJs and ENFPs are both very much so in their heads, my INTJ likes to think I'm more of a space cadet than he is, but, c'mon now, at least I'm an extrovert so I have some sense of my surroundings, especially when it's highly stimulating or full o' stimulating people.

I'm not the one who just crashed my Prius.

Remember lassy, I use plenty of extroverted thinking.

But, yeah, perhaps you're a bit right here, Kalach, but WHO CARES?!?!?!

I don't think Kalach was really very on point at all. Sounded like a bunch of armchair observations, not real life ones.

What's so wrong with two people who can become so enraptured in themselves, or in some discussion that the outside world somehow mysteriously disappears, if you ask me, that's amore!!!

I wouldn't say the outside world disappears (unless you're counting the outside world as everything except the INTJ, the ENFP, and whatever they're discussing, thinking about, playing with, etc.).

 

[SillySapienne]

I'm not the one who just crashed my Prius.

Dude, how is it my fault that a car automagically appeared in front of me, when I was certain that it wasn't there, yet for some inexplicable reason it was.

And, I didn't crash my car, it obviously was interested in the bug in front of me, and wanted to sniff its ass, kinda like dogs do.

 

[SillySapienne]

I think your externally focused intuition is like a camera, able to capture the light of my internally focused intuition.

I like this description!

Therefore you're forgiven about the alleged crashing of my Prius comment.

 

[Thalassa]

Awww! You two are so cute!

 

[Kalach]

For a bunch of possibility seekers, you guys are sure sticking to what you know.

As much as Ne loves Ni, Si rejects it unless there's a reasonable foundation: "That doesn't feel like something I remember, how can that be possible if it doesn't feel right?"

The inferior function is explicitly rejected by the dominant. That's how the dominant is dominant. And dual seeking behaviour is real, people sometimes even explicitly ask others to do what their tertiary and inferior functions can't be relied on for. Ni runs a real risk of being viewed as faulty Si and rejected. This would take the form of suggestions that, perhaps, just sayin', and don't be offended but, maybe the Ni user has not looked at all the possibilities <rising tone indicating inoffensive question>. And this would be difficult to distinguish from those times when the ENFP is right and indeed the INTJ has not looked at all the possibilities.

The corresponding INTJ road block has it that as much as Ni is impressed by Ne, Se rejects it if doesn't involve movement in the world: "That's just annoying, the only real possibility is where you do this, this and this."

Age makes a difference. As Si accumulates, Ne grows focus; as Se is more often invoked, Ni expands.


I have spoken.

 

[SillySapienne]

Se is hands down the most animalistic basic function.

You know how to reconcile an INTJs inferior function.

Kiss him, hold him, let him hold you, fondle each other, dance, let him watch you dance, touch him and let him touch you.

I have spoken.

Problem fixed.

You're welcome.

*curtsies*

 

[sculpting]

Dude, how is it my fault that a car automagically appeared in front of me, when I was certain that it wasn't there, yet for some inexplicable reason it was.

Hmmm, I may have also had cars magically appear in front of me, once or twice, or four times, or something like that.....

Awww! You two are so cute!

Se is hands down the most animalistic basic function.

You know how to reconcile an INTJs inferior function.

Kiss him, hold him, let him hold you, fondle each other, dance, let him watch you dance, touch him and let him touch you.

I have spoken.

Problem fixed.

You're welcome.

*curtsies*

Awwww, this thread is so damned cute. I just want to watch you guys be all huggy and cute and shit. Its adorable.