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  1. #981
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    Quote Originally Posted by Happy Puppy View Post
    Fe says "The company has decided to follow a new procedure and with all of us working together as a team and we anticipate it will be a great success." so dont complain or you arent part of our team.
    Yes, this bugs me too. That's exactly what bugs me.



    Ti is another language-no shit. Te cant follow down Ti's path for more than a few steps, then it starts to get filled in with "blah, blah, blah". I read my entps emails to her aloud and fill them in with spoken blah, blah, blahs. She almost killed me.
    OMG it does...it does begin to look like blah, blah, blah...it's the part of academia that annoys me to no end, even in texts I've studied, because it strikes me as pretentious.



    The next time you and OMT start a lovemaking session, after each post take about an hour to think over what he wrote-you have to translate his i into your Te, which is hard without getting pissed.
    Ewww, yeah, no. That's not going to happen.



    Try this-ask your Fe users to be totally honest and give you critique about things that they find irritating. When Proteo will do this here, I learn amazing stuff that I never would have thought to question. "Really, I do that? Really, it's irritating?"
    I don't have to ask. I already have an ENFJ sister who is more than happy to describe what personality traits I have which bug her:

    1) Selective about who I love. "You seem to think that only certain people - or a certain kind of people - are worthy of your reverence. It's not that you're rude to other people, but it's pretty clear who you prefer."

    2) Dramatic emotional outbursts if I'm severely depressed or angry. "Do you have to do this here? Now?"...but let me just say I was in my mother's home, at midnight, in my nightgown, when she decided to bring her friend over. So it was less about me being "inappropriate" and all about her wanting be able to bring her friend ...to her mother's house...at midnight...without warning anyone first...and impress the friend with our family's exquisite manners? This is a big part of the reason why her lectures tend to fall on deaf ears much of the time.

    3) Just generally telling me how to "behave myself" in situations. "Why do you take things so personally? Our other sister does it too!" (who is also an ENFP! lol) I will say, in my ENFJ sister's favor, that she has helped me tremendously in dealing with my mom.


    It's hard to do this with ENTPs as it is such a visceral response from them, and it can be really hard to identify specific things to change, but ENFJs are awesome.
    I think INFJs are awesome.

    P.S. nothing you said sounded bossy to me

  2. #982
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Wow. So much to respond to, here. ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Happy Puppy View Post
    U, I think Fe and Fi are different languages. I think this is due to the functions being inherent, individualized neural modules that program how we communicate with the outside world. The voice, eye movements, facial expressions-even on a micro musculature level, the cadence of speech, where the emphasis is placed in a sentence words all differs. The words used will differ.:

    Fe: tends to use group words, we, us, the team, together (which can feel very manipulative and controlling to an Fi user "we should do...." implying what "I" SHOULD do..)

    Fi: speaks it terms of "I". i feel this, I did that. Watch Fi users interact. Fi user 1: I did this. Fi user 2: I did something like that-tells us what they did. On the surface this looks self centered. In reality is Fi-mirroring. "I have felt what you feel" then typically followed by Te advice "Thus you might try this approach to solving this problem which worked for me in the past"
    I mostly agree. I think there's something more to it on the Fi side. There's an intuitive interplay that lends to the sense of "sincerity" when both people prefer Fi.

    For Fe, it's really kind of weird: on the one hand, it's manipulative and controlling (because we hear it more with our Fi), but if you just push back a little bit, the Fe will want to adapt to you, usually. The trick is to not push back hard (i.e., don't be mean, or express what you want too hard); rather, just suggest an alternative, with a follow-up logic/reason like "I think more of us would have fun doing X, and you-know-who won't whine so much."


    Te: Very blunt-"you should do this..." "This needs to be done.." "Do this next" "This is the problem" yeah, kinda bossy.
    It's "kind of bossy", but it's the same deal as Fe. Two Te users quickly arrive at agreement (or agree to disagree-ment), because they'll quickly agree on the facts of the matter, without any weird Ti internal inconsistencies you can't see stuff going on. If you have the facts, you can easily make a Te user change his or her mind. The usual problem with that approach, for most people, is that most people don't have the facts, and wouldn't know the facts if they bit 'em in the ass. To the ignorant, strong Te users will seem especially bossy, because they can't see the logic behind it all.

    Ti: I think it is sort of all in third person but not blunt like Te-"The problem consists of these variables, this flaw, this aspect. " I'd have to let the Ti users chime in though. I think it sort of mirrors the way Fi does, but is mirroring data/analysis/information-rethinking their thoughts maybe????, not another's emo, thus doesnt speak in the first person. I dunno on this one.
    Sort of. I've a fairly strong Ti, and I can go into that mode without too much pain or mind-twisting. Ti, especially abstract Ti like INTP, often reads like a math textbook. Instead of explaining addition as, "Here, take one stick. How many sticks? (One ... ) OK, now let's put down another stick. How many sticks is that? (Two ...) OK ... so addition is like that: one and one is two, " a full-out Ti version would list all the commutative and associative and whatever else properties of addition, slowly listing everything that is true about addition, building off of core axioms, until one had a full understanding of addition ... except for losing most folks on "what does commutative mean?"



    wrt to the ex ISTP:

    He was kinda screwed honestly, poor guy. I grew up with a family that used Fi manipulatively as a tool and weapon. They show you their Fi pain (ie whining), understanding inherently another Fi user will mirror that pain and be forced to help them. This only lasts so long before you build Te walls-that force the other Fi user to be accountable.
    Interesting: I built up Te walls (nevermind Fi stubbornness) to deal with my Mom's INFJ guilt trips.

    So he would try and use Fe to structure his own needs, plan a situation, or seek my support. He would say "we need to do this or that". I would translate that to "Fi speak", and see whiny or hear "You should have done this or that and didnt...". Thus I would respond with Te to try and force him to be accountable and responsible or defend my own actions.

    Didnt lead to fights, just a cool approach where he used Ti and I used Te. A functional partnership.

    As for emotional expression-I think Fe is much more likely to say "I feel this and need this emotional response from you" (I cant even speak Fe so that sounds all Te flavored ). Fi doesnt speak. You can see Fi by the things never said, the pauses. It is difficult to enunciate Fi. Not the silly NeFi us ENFPs use to play with, or how I can speak about Fi using Te. Really speaking with Fi-well thats kinda mute.
    Yes, Fi doesn't speak. It is so hard to describe, but you can feel it.

    Fe does speak.

    One good friend of mine described Fe and Fi this way: Fi is a lake, Fe is a river. Fi is still and deep, difficult to dive in and understand. Fe is always moving, always changing, always adapting its course to the environment.

    Quote Originally Posted by poki View Post
    In regards to uumlau. Recently I have had a conversation with an Fe user where she wanted something and tried to convince me. I responded "I dont want it, but if you want it I am fine with it" her response was "I want you to want it though". This is possibly Fe feeling selfish and wants the group to want something to keep from feeling selfish.
    Absolutely. My ESFJ ex-wife gave me exactly this: she wanted me to want to do what she wanted me to do. That I'd do it, however willingly, because I loved her, wasn't good enough for her. I had to like it, without respect to whether or not I loved her.

    Quote Originally Posted by Happy Puppy View Post
    Proteo pointed out the "I" thing. I really had no idea how much it annoys the Fe users. It's just the way I speak and think when using Fi. Using Te will switch to a very third person directive written or spoken language for me. So I am either selfish or bossy. What's a girl to do?
    I think this is getting to close to the core difference between Ti/Fe and Fi/Te.

    What I actually did is took Proteo's advice and watch how I used speech. I stopped mirroring with Fe doms and auxs, and I try to ask them how they are doing. I try and communicate with Te with them as it seems more effective. Now when I interact with Fi users-even ISTJs-I very consciously mirror them, to the point they seek me out for emotional comfort.
    Yeah, I find myself using Te to fake Fe. At least this is what I think I am doing. It's like a computer game for me: "Oh, if I say what I really want, I'm going to have to deal with a bunch of crap, but if I just smile and say 'Oh, how wonderful, thank you so much!' they'll get out of my face and I can go about what I really want to do all that much sooner." The thing is, until I had MBTI to show me what the signals were, I couldn't figure out when such politeness was really necessary, and when someone wanted me to be more honest about my feelings.

    (Hmmm, I gave Amar a hard time about nudging, but I do it with the ISTJs for sure-just pure Fi blasts of appreciation and caring. I have had one get a little flirty but well, we were flirting a little. With the ISTJs the message seems to not get confused with sexual innuendos of any sort. This is not true with NTPs.)
    Sorry I'm going a bit S on you, but what does a "just pure Fi blasts of appreciation and caring" look/sound like?

    The Fe doms do drive me nuts with "group terms". Te says "Do this because it is the new way to do it." followed by a silent shut the fuck up and quit complaining. Fe says "The company has decided to follow a new procedure and with all of us working together as a team and we anticipate it will be a great success." so dont complain or you arent part of our team.

    However the take home is to ignore the discomfort the "we" terms induce and ask them very directly for what deliverables I owe. The other aspect is to be able to say clearly-No, I cannot do that for you-and not let the group "we" guilt induced make me change my mind.
    Good points. This actually helps me a lot.

    IXTJs are a riot. I bring out the Ne in my ISTJs and make them all act kind a nuts honestly, although workplace stress and age may be a factor. Te just says stuff. Blunt, rude, offensive, harsh critical, fucked up shit. Then we all laugh our asses off. All of my INTJs are older and more reserved as well as more rare. (INTJs are weird)
    Yes we are (rare and weird). I managed to meet a fellow INTJ this past weekend, and her reaction was, "Wow, guys like this really exist!" Usually, I try to be witty and pun ... but what was really making her laugh was my showing how I faked Fe: I'd say something very kind to the wait staff where we were having lunch, and translated it to her, in Te terms, that it was the fastest way to make them go away and leave us the hell alone. (And I had to do that several times.)
    As my ENTPs and I get old, I find I offend their growing Fe, thus it can be hard to keep many of them close. It's sad as there is nothing more fun than Te no holds barred debate and discussion.

    Ti is another language-no shit. Te cant follow down Ti's path for more than a few steps, then it starts to get filled in with "blah, blah, blah". I read my entps emails to her aloud and fill them in with spoken blah, blah, blahs. She almost killed me.

    I am at the point where I can pick up a journal article and tell if it was written by Ti or Te, depending upon how I can follow it. On the converse, Ti cant think like Te either, so the ENTPs I work with can get so caught up in theory and a multitude of ideas but never get the Te big picture objective.
    It's interesting that you equate Te with "big picture". xNTP have Ne/Ti for the "big picture." It's a different big picture, is all.

    I completely understand how you can read articles and see whether it's Te or Ti. I can do the same, except I can think in both Te and Ti. (I just have to, for what I do.) Te works much better for explaining things to people (even to Ti, who will then nitpick it to death, but they understand it, first, then nitpick). Ti is better for formalizing, making sure that you know exactly what you're talking about. It's best if I can use them both to a degree: I define a problem very precisely (Ti), then I analyze it functionally (Te), then I draw conclusions (very much Te).

    It's hard to do this with ENTPs as it is such a visceral response from them, and it can be really hard to identify specific things to change, but ENFJs are awesome.
    Actually, this might be a good general rule. That is, when the function is tertiary or inferior, it's a bit more "raw." Ironically, the INTJ's Te is probably a bit more "mellow" than the ENFP's Te, precisely because the INTJ uses it all the time and it has matured to be a bit more diplomatic, while the ENFP's Te will be a bit more biting when it surfaces because it's only needed when NeFi is failing. Similarly, the INTJ's Fi is going to be more intense than that of an ENFP, precisely because the INTJ's Fi only rarely comes into play.

    Similar logic would hold for ENFJ and ENTP, but moreso, since Fe would be primary for the ENFJ.

  3. #983
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    1) Selective about who I love. "You seem to think that only certain people - or a certain kind of people - are worthy of your reverence. It's not that you're rude to other people, but it's pretty clear who you prefer."

    2) Dramatic emotional outbursts if I'm severely depressed or angry. "Do you have to do this here? Now?"...but let me just say I was in my mother's home, at midnight, in my nightgown, when she decided to bring her friend over. So it was less about me being "inappropriate" and all about her wanting be able to bring her friend ...to her mother's house...at midnight...without warning anyone first...and impress the friend with our family's exquisite manners? This is a big part of the reason why her lectures tend to fall on deaf ears much of the time.

    3) Just generally telling me how to "behave myself" in situations. "Why do you take things so personally? Our other sister does it too!" (who is also an ENFP! lol) I will say, in my ENFJ sister's favor, that she has helped me tremendously in dealing with my mom.
    1.yes I do this as well. I do feel a huge sense of group love towards many of my coworkers-I feel the need to protect them and make sure long term decisions made are in the best interest of the group-which I try and convince myself makes the best sense for the profit of the company. But individuals? I dont feel obligated to be nice to everyone or love them.

    2. What about PMS? Just sayin...not that I know anyone that gets bitchy at PMS time.

    3. Thank god I work with so few Fe users. It's the only thing that saves me.

    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    It's "kind of bossy", but it's the same deal as Fe. Two Te users quickly arrive at agreement (or agree to disagree-ment), because they'll quickly agree on the facts of the matter, without any weird Ti internal inconsistencies you can't see stuff going on. If you have the facts, you can easily make a Te user change his or her mind.
    yes to the two Te users quickness to conclusion. My entp says it looks like Te is ALWAYS right-both with me and Te auxs and doms. I think this is the way the words are said and the tone that accompanies it. So then when I get a bit more data, change the Te decision, then am "always right" again, it is very annoying to her, yet it just seems to be how the words come out. I have started qualifying the words I say to try and make the Te judgment seem less absolute and more open to discussion.

    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Interesting: I built up Te walls (nevermind Fi stubbornness) to deal with my Mom's INFJ guilt trips.

    Yes, Fi doesn't speak. It is so hard to describe, but you can feel it.

    Fe does speak.

    One good friend of mine described Fe and Fi this way: Fi is a lake, Fe is a river. Fi is still and deep, difficult to dive in and understand. Fe is always moving, always changing, always adapting its course to the environment.
    As for the Te walls-I have a very cute video of my presumed INTJ toddler I'll post. I'd like the get you guys thoughts about what he is thinking.

    Fe-100% with you. When I cheated with Fe, I could feel this. I cant emphasize how much I envy the Fe users this open, soft, gentle, malleable yet distinct barrier. Interacting with other Fe users-like waves that lap against each other but dont mix. A give and take. Fi has its unspoken language but Fe does as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Yeah, I find myself using Te to fake Fe. At least this is what I think I am doing. It's like a computer game for me: "Oh, if I say what I really want, I'm going to have to deal with a bunch of crap, but if I just smile and say 'Oh, how wonderful, thank you so much!' they'll get out of my face and I can go about what I really want to do all that much sooner." The thing is, until I had MBTI to show me what the signals were, I couldn't figure out when such politeness was really necessary, and when someone wanted me to be more honest about my feelings.
    I posted this elsewhere-but this layering effect-using one function to mimic another, seems learned but very natural to most people. I see it all the time. Very often the discussion here turns to nontraditional function usage. I wonder how much if this is really using different function orders verses how much is this layering/mimicing effect.

    I cant emphasize how important this might be in terms of understanding people who seem a bit unusual-like an ESTP who wore a heavy Te facade or even seem false-like my ESTJ female boss who faked Fe or an ISFJ who fakes Te with Fe.

    I need to observe in much more depth.

    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Sorry I'm going a bit S on you, but what does a "just pure Fi blasts of appreciation and caring" look/sound like?

    It's interesting that you equate Te with "big picture". xNTP have Ne/Ti for the "big picture." It's a different big picture, is all.
    I'm sorry it would incinerate your eyes. No can do.

    As for big picture-about ten pages back Poki had a different version of big picture that was opposite to the typically ENTP big picture. So two folks side by side, both unhappy that the other cant see the big picture...Those silly perceiving functions...

    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Actually, this might be a good general rule. That is, when the function is tertiary or inferior, it's a bit more "raw." Ironically, the INTJ's Te is probably a bit more "mellow" than the ENFP's Te, precisely because the INTJ uses it all the time and it has matured to be a bit more diplomatic, while the ENFP's Te will be a bit more biting when it surfaces because it's only needed when NeFi is failing. Similarly, the INTJ's Fi is going to be more intense than that of an ENFP, precisely because the INTJ's Fi only rarely comes into play.

    Similar logic would hold for ENFJ and ENTP, but moreso, since Fe would be primary for the ENFJ.
    By biting do you mean rude, incinerating, acerbic, bitchy, callous, and combative? None of these words ever apply to me. Really....

    This is actually a big problem for ENFPs, especially women, but I have a male VP who does it as well. We show so much facial expression plus we are can be quick and biting when we "think" thus it can be a little scattered yet combative at the same time-in both written and spoken form. It offends people. The assumption is that there is underlying emotion and our argument is not based in logic or fact. Doesnt help that Ne skips steps.

    I wonder if being extroverted makes it worse. You see some of this in Te doms, they have just learned to fake Fe a bit more than us ENFPs. I have had two ESTJ bosses and two ENTJ bosses. The ESTJs fake Fe, but people still hate them. The ENTJs dont fake anything, they just brutally trample others, then seem confused by the response.."Who me?" I kinda liked them honestly, but they made few friends.

    Not sure how to deal with this as an ENFP. Am collecting data on ENFPs in management around me, and I see different techniques being employed so no particular "right" answer yet. I often compare using Te to shoving my hand in a running garbage disposal for this reason. I cant help be blunt and direct, yet I alienate people which eliminates the more primary need for emotional affirmation. Yet I know the truth has to be addressed and dealt with.

    Truth now, pain later.

  4. #984
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    Quote Originally Posted by Happy Puppy View Post
    That sounds like TiSe working together to feel like Te? Sound right? I dunno..
    Yes. The majority of the time I like to just do it myself because I am so used to my perception that I am half blind in doing things when I have to rely on others perception.

    Quote Originally Posted by Happy Puppy View Post
    This is where me and Fe part ways-I dont even understand her response here. If I want something I just say so, recognizing it may make the other person angry. When younger I would also just Fi clam up and then pout, but with an ISTP this was VERY pointless as he didnt see the Fi withdraw at all, thus my immature pouting was all in vain.
    Growing up with Fi, my Se picks things up so easily in what I see. I just dont know how to always respond. I understand the Fe response that I posted, but I go about things way different. Their are lots of things "I want my people to want in a relationship, but its the things that is relative to that relationship" Take marriage, there are somethings that my wife has boundaries on. The things I am not allowed to do outside of marriage I want her to want those things from me and I take it upon myself to figure out how to make that activity enjoyable for both. If we are friends I want you to want to spend time together doing things. The things dont matter, but the desire to hang out is key to a friendship.


    Quote Originally Posted by Happy Puppy View Post
    Proteo pointed out the "I" thing. I really had no idea how much it annoys the Fe users. It's just the way I speak and think when using Fi. Using Te will switch to a very third person directive written or spoken language for me. So I am either selfish or bossy. What's a girl to do?

    What I actually did is took Proteo's advice and watch how I used speech. I stopped mirroring with Fe doms and auxs, and I try to ask them how they are doing. I try and communicate with Te with them as it seems more effective. Now when I interact with Fi users-even ISTJs-I very consciously mirror them, to the point they seek me out for emotional comfort.

    (Hmmm, I gave Amar a hard time about nudging, but I do it with the ISTJs for sure-just pure Fi blasts of appreciation and caring. I have had one get a little flirty but well, we were flirting a little. With the ISTJs the message seems to not get confused with sexual innuendos of any sort. This is not true with NTPs.)

    The Fe doms do drive me nuts with "group terms". Te says "Do this because it is the new way to do it." followed by a silent shut the fuck up and quit complaining. Fe says "The company has decided to follow a new procedure and with all of us working together as a team and we anticipate it will be a great success." so dont complain or you arent part of our team.

    However the take home is to ignore the discomfort the "we" terms induce and ask them very directly for what deliverables I owe. The other aspect is to be able to say clearly-No, I cannot do that for you-and not let the group "we" guilt induced make me change my mind.
    A more Dom Te and Fe will use a psuedo for of statistics on you. Its called majority. This is how the majority thinks, this is normal, this is expected. It is really about the group as the group supports their wants. They use it as a backing.

    Fi will use Te as a backing also. I see this alot in my son. When his Fi makes an internal judgement(Fi) he will logically search for every reason he can think of(Te). They key here is that they are not related directly to his wants, but objective external reasons that support his Fi. I have seen an INTJ search for reasons to not do things as his Fi doesnt want to and he goes looking for external things to back up Fi. There is alot of cases in which this is very helpful, but they also do this when they just dont want to do something and look for excuses. I on the other hand, just decide if I want to or not. I dont use Te to find external logical reasons. In regards to my wife sometimes she thinks I go searching when I really dont do things based on my fuzzy logic. This is where Te and Ti both have the same reasoning and its not really that good. This is where intent come into the picture as you attack Te and its like Te is like "man I just got busted", attack Ti and you just told a judgment that it was wrong. It would be the same as me telling an Fi user that their judgement of a person or of some idea they want is wrong. Not a good thing, caused that feeling in an Fi person before.

    Quote Originally Posted by Happy Puppy View Post
    IXTJs are a riot. I bring out the Ne in my ISTJs and make them all act kind a nuts honestly, although workplace stress and age may be a factor. Te just says stuff. Blunt, rude, offensive, harsh critical, fucked up shit. Then we all laugh our asses off. All of my INTJs are older and more reserved as well as more rare. (INTJs are weird) As my ENTPs and I get old, I find I offend their growing Fe, thus it can be hard to keep many of them close. It's sad as there is nothing more fun than Te no holds barred debate and discussion.
    I cant maintain a IJ debate for to long as I bug the crap out of them. And yes tertiary Fe people can be really sensitive.

    Quote Originally Posted by Happy Puppy View Post
    Ti is another language-no shit. Te cant follow down Ti's path for more than a few steps, then it starts to get filled in with "blah, blah, blah". I read my entps emails to her aloud and fill them in with spoken blah, blah, blahs. She almost killed me.

    I am at the point where I can pick up a journal article and tell if it was written by Ti or Te, depending upon how I can follow it. On the converse, Ti cant think like Te either, so the ENTPs I work with can get so caught up in theory and a multitude of ideas but never get the Te big picture objective.

    The next time you and OMT start a lovemaking session, after each post take about an hour to think over what he wrote-you have to translate his Ti into your Te, which is hard without getting pissed.
    I do the same thing with N. Half the stuff flies out the window. Especially when its combined with Si. To much detail is used to actually make it useful. If the thing they are discussing has stuff missing, they will introduce all these possibilities. Then they get in a debated argument about things that arent even true. I guess this is how they figure out what they like and dont. It just doesnt seem to hold up in regards to real life as we may not be in the same point in life when that thing actually happens.

    Fi feels the same with me. I sit their trying to turn it into Fe. Its like I have to search for what you really want. Its the Te that confuses it as it will use external objective things to try to come up with logic to support Fi and I have to dig through it. If marm would allow me to use her blog I can give an example of the problems I have being able to understand when Te becomes to strong. This will be the total honesty like it says below. I dont use Fe or Ti as tertiary defense so you dont have to worry about any visceral response from me. I can tell Te when its used as it hits a nerve in me as they search for logical reasons and look for external logical validation, when they need an Fi "I feel for you response". IRL my response is not naturally "I feel for you", but I will leave it up to you to decide what you want to do and will support your internal decision 100%.



    Quote Originally Posted by Happy Puppy View Post
    Try this-ask your Fe users to be totally honest and give you critique about things that they find irritating. When Proteo will do this here, I learn amazing stuff that I never would have thought to question. "Really, I do that? Really, it's irritating?"

    It's hard to do this with ENTPs as it is such a visceral response from them, and it can be really hard to identify specific things to change, but ENFJs are awesome.

    Take the identified "issue", try and detach yourself from the emotional response and really figure out why you do it. When is it good? When is it bad? Is it close enough to your core that you can't not do it-like the emo emissions that drive the ENTPs nuts. Or is it something you can tone down recognizing it is not productive with everyone-the Fi mirroring for instance.

    Just my two cents though, bout how I use all this stuff. All just suggestions, so sorry if it seems bossy.
    As an ENFJ becomes more comfortable this will come out without asking for the critique. I start to wonder if Se as a defense mechanism is tuned to pick these things up both within what they do and become super critical of themselves as well as with others. When they care about you they let it out so you can become a better person(Just a high level thought).
    Im out, its been fun

  5. #985
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Happy Puppy View Post
    yes to the two Te users quickness to conclusion. My entp says it looks like Te is ALWAYS right-both with me and Te auxs and doms. I think this is the way the words are said and the tone that accompanies it. So then when I get a bit more data, change the Te decision, then am "always right" again, it is very annoying to her, yet it just seems to be how the words come out. I have started qualifying the words I say to try and make the Te judgment seem less absolute and more open to discussion.
    Actually, I think what's going on here is that Te/Fi vs Fe/Ti divide. In particular, I've found that Te often sounds like Fe (and vice versa), so in generally, Te users interpret both Te and Fe with the same filters on, and Fe users are listening to both Te and Fe as if it were all Fe.

    So Fe users hear a good deal of rudeness from Te: when you tell the truth, for instance, it embarrasses people, so Fe users try to skim the truth or focus on the desired result all the while trying to avoid that embarrassment. Fe taken to an extreme becomes a "politically correct" kind of speech. Fortunately, skilled (i.e., primary and secondary) Te users and Fe users usually become good at navigating this breach as they mature: Te users learn to use polite turns of phrase, and Fe users read the body language and tone of voice in order to realize that the Te user doesn't intend offense.

    The "always right" is just how Fe users read Te users, and it particularly annoys tertiary and inferior Fe users because their Fe perception is often not as mature.

    (More on this below.)

    As for the Te walls-I have a very cute video of my presumed INTJ toddler I'll post. I'd like the get you guys thoughts about what he is thinking.
    That'd be cool.

    I posted this elsewhere-but this layering effect-using one function to mimic another, seems learned but very natural to most people. I see it all the time. Very often the discussion here turns to nontraditional function usage. I wonder how much if this is really using different function orders verses how much is this layering/mimicing effect.

    I cant emphasize how important this might be in terms of understanding people who seem a bit unusual-like an ESTP who wore a heavy Te facade or even seem false-like my ESTJ female boss who faked Fe or an ISFJ who fakes Te with Fe.

    I need to observe in much more depth.
    I think it's wrong to consider it a "facade". I'll continue to use terms like "Fe user" and "Te user" as a convenient shorthand, but I will always strive to emphasize that judging functions only indirectly affect behavior: one doesn't "use Fe" to choose what to say, one "uses Fe" (with Ni or Si as a perceiving function) to understand a situation and come up with several options of what to say ... and then one chooses what to say.

    When a Te user is "using an Fe facade", what is really going on is that one is using Te to analyze things objectively, and then choosing to express oneself in the most effective means possible. If being very blunt means that the receiver gets offended and doesn't listen to the message, that's a failure, whether one is Fe or Te. So Te learns how to say things "nicely" so that the messages are actually received as intended. This dovetails into my later point about how primary/secondary Te/Fe users can accommodate each others' mode of expression, with some effort. You're reading this as using a facade, which is a legitimate way of looking at it. I just think it's easier to recognize that it's still Te (or Fe), but just more experienced/matured.


    I'm sorry it would incinerate your eyes. No can do.
    Awww.

    (Really, I don't mean to pry, but I am very curious, because I am without a context.)


    As for big picture-about ten pages back Poki had a different version of big picture that was opposite to the typically ENTP big picture. So two folks side by side, both unhappy that the other cant see the big picture...Those silly perceiving functions...
    Exactly. In a weird way, it's all the same big picture, BUT ... each side is trying to fill in different pieces, due to a different priority. Ni fills in the blanks and makes a partial portrait a complete portrait, for example, while Ne fills in the background of the portrait, with trees and leaves and sky and clouds and sun and shadow.

    By biting do you mean rude, incinerating, acerbic, bitchy, callous, and combative? None of these words ever apply to me. Really....
    Nope. This is where my prior answers in this post dovetail to these comments. You can say something completely honestly, openly, in good faith, with nothing but good intentions, with caring and love and the warmest of warm fuzzies, but because it is the plain, unadulterated truth, a more immature Fe user will take what you say as a personal offense, reading into your words any of:
    • You think I'm stupid?!
    • Why do you think I don't care?!
    • How can you possibly be so certain?! (This is often combined Fe/Ti reading Te ... Ti knows it doesn't understand, and distrusts the Te version.)
    • How dare you characterize me that way!
    • And so on ...


    The Fe user might hear any number of things that you never said nor intended to say, but yet, if you read/listen to your own words from their perspective, you'll get hints of what they're getting at.

    For me, the most common example when I was growing up was offering to help friends with their homework, and they'd be insulted that I thought that they needed help. I'm thinking I'm being nice and helpful, but because I didn't follow the Fe-style protocol, instead of offering help in a face-saving way, I effectively insulted them for being too stupid to do their own homework.

    And this leads me to finally addressing this bit:
    This is actually a big problem for ENFPs, especially women, but I have a male VP who does it as well. We show so much facial expression plus we are can be quick and biting when we "think" thus it can be a little scattered yet combative at the same time-in both written and spoken form. It offends people. The assumption is that there is underlying emotion and our argument is not based in logic or fact. Doesnt help that Ne skips steps.

    I wonder if being extroverted makes it worse. You see some of this in Te doms, they have just learned to fake Fe a bit more than us ENFPs. I have had two ESTJ bosses and two ENTJ bosses. The ESTJs fake Fe, but people still hate them. The ENTJs dont fake anything, they just brutally trample others, then seem confused by the response.."Who me?" I kinda liked them honestly, but they made few friends.

    Not sure how to deal with this as an ENFP. Am collecting data on ENFPs in management around me, and I see different techniques being employed so no particular "right" answer yet. I often compare using Te to shoving my hand in a running garbage disposal for this reason. I cant help be blunt and direct, yet I alienate people which eliminates the more primary need for emotional affirmation. Yet I know the truth has to be addressed and dealt with.

    Truth now, pain later.
    What I end up doing these days is phrasing things far more diplomatically, yet my message remains the same. For instance, when correcting "Dave", I could say one of two things:
    1. That's wrong. It really works like this: <give detailed logical example>.
    2. That's a good analysis, Dave, but there are a couple of things going on here of which you are unaware, namely <point out facts>. Given those facts, then that leads us to <my conclusion>.

    The first, even though I don't even say "You are wrong," but rather "That is wrong," will be interpreted as an insult by many people. (I suspect that for Fe/Ti, because Ti is introverted, one's ideas are taken more personally, and require the same respect as you would give the person. Just a theory. Similarly, for Te/Fi, one's feelings require that level of respect.)

    The second includes two levels of affirmation, and then follows with Te logical presentation. The first level is that I show respect for Dave's ability to reason, which works well both on Fe and Fi users, I think. The second is that I provide a face-saving reason for him to be incorrect, so it isn't as if he's being called to task for presenting an incorrect version of the facts (this is more for the Fe users, I believe). Then I am allowed to be blunt and factual, because I made it verbally clear that not only do I respect him and his ideas, but I also show that I'm not just trying to force my thinking onto the group.

    Thus it isn't a matter of "truth now, pain later." It's more, "a spoonful of sugar helps the medicine go down (in a most delightful way)."

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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Actually, I think what's going on here is that Te/Fi vs Fe/Ti divide. In particular, I've found that Te often sounds like Fe (and vice versa), so in generally, Te users interpret both Te and Fe with the same filters on, and Fe users are listening to both Te and Fe as if it were all Fe.

    So Fe users hear a good deal of rudeness from Te: when you tell the truth, for instance, it embarrasses people, so Fe users try to skim the truth or focus on the desired result all the while trying to avoid that embarrassment. Fe taken to an extreme becomes a "politically correct" kind of speech. Fortunately, skilled (i.e., primary and secondary) Te users and Fe users are usually become good at navigating this breach as they mature: Te users learn to use polite turns of phrase, and Fe users read the body language and tone of voice in order to realize that the Te user doesn't intend offense.

    The "always right" is just how Fe users read Te users, and it particularly annoys tertiary and inferior Fe users because their Fe perception is often not as mature.

    (More on this below.)


    That'd be cool.


    I think it's wrong to consider it a "facade". I'll continue to use terms like "Fe user" and "Te user" as a convenient shorthand, but I will always strive to emphasize that judging functions only indirectly affect behavior: one doesn't "use Fe" to choose what to say, one "uses Fe" (with Ni or Si as a perceiving function) to understand a situation and come up with several options of what to say ... and then one chooses what to say.

    When a Te user is "using an Fe facade", what is really going on is that one is using Te to analyze things objectively, and then choosing to express oneself in the most effective means possible. If being very blunt means that the receiver gets offended and doesn't listen to the message, that's a failure, whether one is Fe or Te. So Te learns how to say things "nicely" so that the messages are actually received as intended. This dovetails into my later point about how primary/secondary Te/Fe users can accommodate each others' mode of expression, with some effort. You're reading this as using a facade, which is a legitimate way of looking at it. I just think it's easier to recognize that it's still Te (or Fe), but just more experienced/matured.



    Awww.

    (Really, I don't mean to pry, but I am very curious, because I am without a context.)



    Exactly. In a weird way, it's all the same big picture, BUT ... each side is trying to fill in different pieces, due to a different priority. Ni fills in the blanks and makes a partial portrait a complete portrait, for example, while Ne fills in the background of the portrait, with trees and leaves and sky and clouds and sun and shadow.



    Nope. This is where my prior answers in this post dovetail to these comments. You can say something completely honestly, openly, in good faith, with nothing but good intentions, with caring and love and the warmest of warm fuzzies, but because it is the plain, unadulterated truth, a more immature Fe user will take what you say as a personal offense, reading into your words any of:
    • You think I'm stupid?!
    • Why do you think I don't care?!
    • How can you possibly be so certain?! (This is often combined Fe/Ti reading Te ... Ti knows it doesn't understand, and distrusts the Te version.)
    • How dare you characterize me that way!
    • And so on ...


    The Fe user might hear any number of things that you never said nor intended to say, but yet, if you read/listen to your own words from their perspective, you'll get hints of what they're getting at.

    For me, the most common example when I was growing up was offering to help friends with their homework, and they'd be insulted that I thought that they needed help. I'm thinking I'm being nice and helpful, but because I didn't follow the Fe-style protocol, instead of offering help in a face-saving way, I effectively insulted them for being too stupid to do their own homework.

    And this leads me to finally addressing this bit:


    What I end up doing these days is phrasing things far more diplomatically, yet my message remains the same. For instance, when correcting "Dave", I could say one of two things:
    1. That's wrong. It really works like this: <give detailed logical example>.
    2. That's a good analysis, Dave, but there are a couple of things going on here of which you are unaware, namely <point out facts>. Given those facts, then that leads us to <my conclusion>.

    The first, even though I don't even say "You are wrong," but rather "That is wrong," will be interpreted as an insult by many people. (I suspect that for Fe/Ti, because Ti is introverted, one's ideas are taken more personally, and require the same respect as you would give the person. Just a theory. Similarly, for Te/Fi, one's feelings require that level of respect.)

    The second includes two levels of affirmation, and then follows with Te logical presentation. The first level is that I show respect for Dave's ability to reason, which works well both on Fe and Fi users, I think. The second is that I provide a face-saving reason for him to be incorrect, so it isn't as if he's being called to task for presenting an incorrect version of the facts (this is more for the Fe users, I believe). Then I am allowed to be blunt and factual, because I made it verbally clear that not only do I respect him and his ideas, but I also show that I'm not just trying to force my thinking onto the group.

    Thus it isn't a matter of "truth now, pain later." It's more, "a spoonful of sugar helps the medicine go down (in a most delightful way)."
    I agree with the Te and Fe in regards to speech and writing. Te is very blunt and objectively logical. An inferior Te user will tend to slip in much more Fi then a dom/aux user.

    Fe is very politically correct, but this causes it to be read into. That seems to be peoples natural response to politically correct speeches.

    Both Fe/Te want things taken at face value, but a different face value. I cant escape Ti so I end up using a subjective filter to figure out what I need to objectively include. Its a different task then going from Fe to Te or Te to Fe. Te to Fe is more shifting. Ti/Fi to Te/Fe is alot harder, especially when we dont feel like we can be completely open. Somethings that are a work in progress will always slip into Fe/Te and the more closed we have to be the harder it is for Fe or Te to come out.

    I am curious if Fe and Te do this by being blind as in perception, not N vs S. By limiting subjectivity they are able to be objective. Or by taking things at face value they are able to relay things at face value by not digging into them. Hence, knowledge is evil.
    Im out, its been fun

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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    For instance, when correcting "Dave", I could say one of two things:
    1. That's wrong. It really works like this: <give detailed logical example>.
    2. That's a good analysis, Dave, but there are a couple of things going on here of which you are unaware, namely <point out facts>. Given those facts, then that leads us to <my conclusion>.

    The first, even though I don't even say "You are wrong," but rather "That is wrong," will be interpreted as an insult by many people. (I suspect that for Fe/Ti, because Ti is introverted, one's ideas are taken more personally, and require the same respect as you would give the person. Just a theory. Similarly, for Te/Fi, one's feelings require that level of respect.)
    Yeah... that second one would offend me more. Comes across as veeeerrrry patronizing (especially the "unaware" part). To be honest, while both would get a combative response in return, the second would go from caring about the object (and grudgingly admitting a point) to simply proving you wrong, no matter the outcome (aka why I'm in law school).

    "I see what you're saying, but if you take x, y, and z into account, doesn't it end up like this?" - what I would consider the least offensive.

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    btw, U, I was being terribly sarcastic regarding the "biting". I can be exceptionally biting in written form at times and quite bitchy.

    Quote Originally Posted by poki View Post
    I agree with the Te and Fe in regards to speech and writing. Te is very blunt and objectively logical. An inferior Te user will tend to slip in much more Fi then a dom/aux user.

    Fe is very politically correct, but this causes it to be read into. That seems to be peoples natural response to politically correct speeches.

    Both Fe/Te want things taken at face value, but a different face value. I cant escape Ti so I end up using a subjective filter to figure out what I need to objectively include. Its a different task then going from Fe to Te or Te to Fe. Te to Fe is more shifting. Ti/Fi to Te/Fe is alot harder, especially when we dont feel like we can be completely open. Somethings that are a work in progress will always slip into Fe/Te and the more closed we have to be the harder it is for Fe or Te to come out.

    I am curious if Fe and Te do this by being blind as in perception, not N vs S. By limiting subjectivity they are able to be objective. Or by taking things at face value they are able to relay things at face value by not digging into them. Hence, knowledge is evil.
    I am lost-but much like K's stuff I feel I need to print this out and read it 15 times, because you are getting at a point and my Ne brain is befuddled. Make no mistake-like Te and Ti speaking a different language, Ni/Se and Ne/Si do as well.

    I think-this is a guess-this is part of having inferior Fe, maybe for an ISTP? My Te gets all tangled up with Ne or with Si. I can have two different ways to perceive information and judge it -based upon historical or future possibilities. I get two options. Perhaps with your Fe being inferior-well I dunno...maybe the perceptions become more similiar???

    (Btw-what does an Ni defensive wall look like-you mentioned it the other day)

    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    Yeah... that second one would offend me more. Comes across as veeeerrrry patronizing (especially the "unaware" part). To be honest, while both would get a combative response in return, the second would go from caring about the object (and grudgingly admitting a point) to simply proving you wrong, no matter the outcome (aka why I'm in law school).

    "I see what you're saying, but if you take x, y, and z into account, doesn't it end up like this?" - what I would consider the least offensive.
    See I get all screwed here by Fi. Fi says "Be authentic". Te says "Be blunt and logical" Authentic + logical + blunt= being a total argumentative bitch. Which is great fun with younger ENTPs who are pretty blunt and argumentative I guess I take path one and we bludgeon each other for a bit...

    OMT-what if it isnt about the x y, z Ti details-what if the end point objective is just flawed? Or irrelevant? Let me think up some examples.

    I find my ENTP gets totally pissed when I fuck with her Ti systems, but I get totally pissed when her Ti systems prohibit my progress to a final measurable Te objective. She says I am Duct Tape for everything, and can accomplish miracles, but I totally short circuit a systems approach which is more sustainable in the long term.

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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post

    What I end up doing these days is phrasing things far more diplomatically, yet my message remains the same. For instance, when correcting "Dave", I could say one of two things:
    1. That's wrong. It really works like this: <give detailed logical example>.
    2. That's a good analysis, Dave, but there are a couple of things going on here of which you are unaware, namely <point out facts>. Given those facts, then that leads us to <my conclusion>.
    hmmmmm, I see how you guys play..... I totally eat that second one up myself. "ooooo, reallllyyyyy, you think I am clever...awwwww" That's so funny! ENFPs are kinda slow, me thinks. just pat our heads and we will be happy...

    Yet I am more likely to look like version 1 in my own communications. It takes effort to use Te productively for me-not just idea generating but analytically. To then have to apply sugar or take time explaining details, is very draining.

    It induces a mental state some what akin to "God damn it I found the truth for you, what the hell else do you people want from me. Just fucking fix it!!!!!". Not kidding, very frustrating for me. Very hard to make the Te pretty even if I really like the other person. Often it is easy to give up then try and keep pushing the idea. Likely a combo of Ne impulsive/impatience there as well. I'll have to figure out a way to deal with this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    Yeah... that second one would offend me more. Comes across as veeeerrrry patronizing (especially the "unaware" part). To be honest, while both would get a combative response in return, the second would go from caring about the object (and grudgingly admitting a point) to simply proving you wrong, no matter the outcome (aka why I'm in law school).

    "I see what you're saying, but if you take x, y, and z into account, doesn't it end up like this?" - what I would consider the least offensive.
    ^^^ See what I mean? Even when you TRY to be polite with Te, it offends. It's too damn direct.

    I forgot the part where one has to phrase everything as a question, and that which cannot be a question liberally carpeted with "maybe" "perhaps" or "for instance", therefore you offend no one.

    [CAVEAT: using "you" as a pronoun of convenience, hereafter, doesn't mean "you personally" but as more general class of tendencies, not necessarily shared by all of a given MBTI type ...]
    However, for those of you who rely on Ti, when talking with those who rely on Te, and trying to get along with them, that "phrase everything as a question" mode gets VERY annoying. We think, "Get to the point, please."

    We want to deal with whatever it is you think is wrong and address it directly: you won't offend us. We'll either agree or disagree. We don't want to discuss what the issue maybe is, or perhaps is or hypothetically is. That feels like your trying to lead us down your logical path (in a "veeeerrrry" tendentious manner) which we find remarkably unpersuasive, since we aren't allowed to use any reasoning to which you currently object, leaving us stuck arguing about some side issue that leads to your conclusion, rather than comparing our logical structures as a whole.

    The tendentious phrasing of the question, "I see what you're saying, but if you take x, y, and z into account, doesn't it end up like this?" is just as patronizingly insulting to us, as our direct statement of the facts as we see them is patronizingly insulting to you. The "doesn't it end up like this?" often appears to be a conclusion drawn from the circular logic of assuming that "x, y, and z" are not only true, but that they must imply your conclusion. It takes forever to deconstruct that argument, and the argument feels like deliberate obfuscation to one who prefers Te, and is saying "Look, X is true. We both agree X is true. If X is true, Y cannot be true." However, you don't buy this argument, and keep on insisting, for example, that Y might be true, and keep on making me prove and re-prove to you that Y cannot be true.

    We'd rather see both paths (yours and ours) of logic, instantaneously, side-by-side, and compare their relative strengths and weaknesses out in the open. We believe that this lets us perceive the foundational axioms of both points of view and work from there. (This is a very Ni-biased perspective, btw, switching out axioms in order to determine which axioms are the best hypothesis, and disproving falsifiable axioms in the Karl Popper sense.)

    That endless phrasing of everything as a question means that you can seem (to a "Te user") to always place the burden of proof on others to convince you, rather than on you to convince others. When the cycle of questioning ends, a "Te user" feels empty, unsure whether you have finally agreed or have simply given up out of sheer frustration. It also feels as if you simply ignore all our points, since every point is answered with yet another question, without any declarative statements indicating agreement or disagreement.

    I realize that it is simply a differing perspective. For logic, I prefer to be to-the-point and direct, while others prefer to be indirect and actually perceive issues as questions to be asked, rather than as points to be made. The point I'm making here, however, is that with many listeners (perhaps about half? how do the statistics work out?), your carefully polite "questioning" mode might not only fail to persuade, but in fact be so unpersuasive as to bias others to disregard your opinion.

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