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  1. #971
    Senior Member tastes_like_purple's Avatar
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    I adore INFJs, had a relationship with one for a long time.
    As for INTJs, I find them too cold. It's like they're hollow or something I cant quite
    put my finger on it.
    A falling star fell from your heart and landed in my eyes,
    I screamed aloud, as it tore through them,
    and now it's left me blind...

  2. #972
    Once Was Synarch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uytuun View Post
    I got calm ocean with volcano under the surface from an ESTP. He said it was frightening (because he couldn't read me).
    That's the thing that intimidates EXTP's about INXJ's. The composure. The apparent calm and self-control. The smooth surface concealing everything inside the shell. It's unsettling to people who do "quick reads".

    I have very little self control. I fake it by limiting my exposure to things, which is really not self-control. It's environment control. So, this is another thing that is hard to relate to.
    "Create like a god, command like a king, work like a slave."

  3. #973
    Senior Member Uytuun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Synarch View Post
    That's the thing that intimidates EXTP's about INXJ's. The composure. The apparent calm and self-control. The smooth surface concealing everything inside the shell. It's unsettling to people who do "quick reads".

    I have very little self control. I fake it by limiting my exposure to things, which is really not self-control. It's environment control. So, this is another thing that is hard to relate to.
    Hehe, I'm (we're) not always composed...that's why he knows about the volcano. But I can play around with him and then power down and go into "buddha mode" as he calls it...he'll often try to provoke me when I'm in that mood...just to get some kind of reaction because he doesn't get where his playmate went - kind of like poking a monkey with a stick (he does that with INFJs too) -...that and I'm notoriously unforthcoming about what goes on on the inside except with a chosen few...I feel like I'm like a walking question mark that sometimes pops into his life, yells "TITS!*" and then disappears again. Inconsistent maybe...mysterious as the INJ cliché would have it. I do get why INJs come across like that to ETPs. Sorry if it's confusing. :p

    *this is my brother, it may sound wrong, but it really isn't...we're the kind of people that yell "TITS!" at each other randomly...brightens up the day

    Also, the "self-control" of the INJ is vastly overrated and kind of depends on your perspective. But you may have found that out already when you dove beyond the surface.

  4. #974
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    So would you say that Fe, at least as you perceive it to be expressed by your ex, is passive and indirect about expressing one's own feelings? That one with an Fi perspective would be more willing to say "I want X," while the Fe perspective might say, "What do you think about X?" all the while hoping that directing the conversation toward X will result in getting X?
    U, I think Fe and Fi are different languages. I think this is due to the functions being inherent, individualized neural modules that program how we communicate with the outside world. The voice, eye movements, facial expressions-even on a micro musculature level, the cadence of speech, where the emphasis is placed in a sentence words all differs. The words used will differ.:

    Fe: tends to use group words, we, us, the team, together (which can feel very manipulative and controlling to an Fi user "we should do...." implying what "I" SHOULD do..)

    Fi: speaks it terms of "I". i feel this, I did that. Watch Fi users interact. Fi user 1: I did this. Fi user 2: I did something like that-tells us what they did. On the surface this looks self centered. In reality is Fi-mirroring. "I have felt what you feel" then typically followed by Te advice "Thus you might try this approach to solving this problem which worked for me in the past"

    Te: Very blunt-"you should do this..." "This needs to be done.." "Do this next" "This is the problem" yeah, kinda bossy.

    Ti: I think it is sort of all in third person but not blunt like Te-"The problem consists of these variables, this flaw, this aspect. " I'd have to let the Ti users chime in though. I think it sort of mirrors the way Fi does, but is mirroring data/analysis/information-rethinking their thoughts maybe????, not another's emo, thus doesnt speak in the first person. I dunno on this one.

    wrt to the ex ISTP:

    He was kinda screwed honestly, poor guy. I grew up with a family that used Fi manipulatively as a tool and weapon. They show you their Fi pain (ie whining), understanding inherently another Fi user will mirror that pain and be forced to help them. This only lasts so long before you build Te walls-that force the other Fi user to be accountable.

    So he would try and use Fe to structure his own needs, plan a situation, or seek my support. He would say "we need to do this or that". I would translate that to "Fi speak", and see whiny or hear "You should have done this or that and didnt...". Thus I would respond with Te to try and force him to be accountable and responsible or defend my own actions.

    Didnt lead to fights, just a cool approach where he used Ti and I used Te. A functional partnership.

    As for emotional expression-I think Fe is much more likely to say "I feel this and need this emotional response from you" (I cant even speak Fe so that sounds all Te flavored ). Fi doesnt speak. You can see Fi by the things never said, the pauses. It is difficult to enunciate Fi. Not the silly NeFi us ENFPs use to play with, or how I can speak about Fi using Te. Really speaking with Fi-well thats kinda mute.

  5. #975
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    Quote Originally Posted by Happy Puppy View Post
    U, I think Fe and Fi are different languages. I think this is due to the functions being inherent, individualized neural modules that program how we communicate with the outside world. The voice, eye movements, facial expressions-even on a micro musculature level, the cadence of speech, where the emphasis is placed in a sentence words all differs. The words used will differ.:

    Fe: tends to use group words, we, us, the team, together (which can feel very manipulative and controlling to an Fi user "we should do...." implying what "I" SHOULD do..)

    Fi: speaks it terms of "I". i feel this, I did that. Watch Fi users interact. Fi user 1: I did this. Fi user 2: I did something like that-tells us what they did. On the surface this looks self centered. In reality is Fi-mirroring. "I have felt what you feel" then typically followed by Te advice "Thus you might try this approach to solving this problem which worked for me in the past"

    Te: Very blunt-"you should do this..." "This needs to be done.." "Do this next" "This is the problem" yeah, kinda bossy.

    Ti: I think it is sort of all in third person but not blunt like Te-"The problem consists of these variables, this flaw, this aspect. " I'd have to let the Ti users chime in though. I think it sort of mirrors the way Fi does, but is mirroring data/analysis/information-rethinking their thoughts maybe????, not another's emo, thus doesnt speak in the first person. I dunno on this one.

    wrt to the ex ISTP:

    He was kinda screwed honestly, poor guy. I grew up with a family that used Fi manipulatively as a tool and weapon. They show you their Fi pain (ie whining), understanding inherently another Fi user will mirror that pain and be forced to help them. This only lasts so long before you build Te walls-that force the other Fi user to be accountable.

    So he would try and use Fe to structure his own needs, plan a situation, or seek my support. He would say "we need to do this or that". I would translate that to "Fi speak", and see whiny or hear "You should have done this or that and didnt...". Thus I would respond with Te to try and force him to be accountable and responsible or defend my own actions.

    Didnt lead to fights, just a cool approach where he used Ti and I used Te. A functional partnership.

    As for emotional expression-I think Fe is much more likely to say "I feel this and need this emotional response from you" (I cant even speak Fe so that sounds all Te flavored ). Fi doesnt speak. You can see Fi by the things never said, the pauses. It is difficult to enunciate Fi. Not the silly NeFi us ENFPs use to play with, or how I can speak about Fi using Te. Really speaking with Fi-well thats kinda mute.
    I match your Te style of communication because I tend to walk people through things real time. I am not one who gets all the details, analyzes it, then comes up with a plan of action. If you call me I am actually figuring it out as we speak. If I need to do research I will, then get back to you with things to try. I dont generally bring in the details but the idea so tend to call back several times as I work through it to verify the details maybe try a few things in the interim.

    I get the impression "I feel this and need this emotional response from you", but dont actually here the words. Fe knows whats socially expected and thinks others do as well. This catches me off guard as I dont understand what I am not supposed to say or do at time and say things I shouldnt have or not say things I should have.

    In regards to uumlau. Recently I have had a conversation with an Fe user where she wanted something and tried to convince me. I responded "I dont want it, but if you want it I am fine with it" her response was "I want you to want it though". This is possibly Fe feeling selfish and wants the group to want something to keep from feeling selfish.
    Im out, its been fun

  6. #976
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    Quote Originally Posted by Happy Puppy View Post
    U, I think Fe and Fi are different languages. I think this is due to the functions being inherent, individualized neural modules that program how we communicate with the outside world. The voice, eye movements, facial expressions-even on a micro musculature level, the cadence of speech, where the emphasis is placed in a sentence words all differs. The words used will differ.:

    Fe: tends to use group words, we, us, the team, together (which can feel very manipulative and controlling to an Fi user "we should do...." implying what "I" SHOULD do..)

    Fi: speaks it terms of "I". i feel this, I did that. Watch Fi users interact. Fi user 1: I did this. Fi user 2: I did something like that-tells us what they did. On the surface this looks self centered. In reality is Fi-mirroring. "I have felt what you feel" then typically followed by Te advice "Thus you might try this approach to solving this problem which worked for me in the past"
    Using the word "we" doesn't bother me as much, especially in terms of one-on-one friendships or relationships, or even in small tight-knit groups I happen to like it. I guess "we" bothers me more when it's overly generalized to a larger group, in a work situation, the entire family, etc. OR if it's used condecendingly ("now, we don't do that marmalade, do we?" )

    I totally relate to the Fi thing though. If I tell my story, and another Fi user tells me theirs, it comforts me. It's empathy. Identifying.

    However, I remember in one literature class I took this guy (who most likely an ISFJ, I'm pretty certain - I knew him outside of the class, we were friends at one point) used to get really annoyed because I would almost always relate things characters experienced in stories we read for the class back to myself or people I know. He thought it was self-absorbed, and openly expressed that thought, but it was just my way of trying to understand the experiences and feelings of others.

    Te: Very blunt-"you should do this..." "This needs to be done.." "Do this next" "This is the problem" yeah, kinda bossy.

    Ti: I think it is sort of all in third person but not blunt like Te-"The problem consists of these variables, this flaw, this aspect. " I'd have to let the Ti users chime in though. I think it sort of mirrors the way Fi does, but is mirroring data/analysis/information-rethinking their thoughts maybe????, not another's emo, thus doesnt speak in the first person. I dunno on this one.
    I can't discern whether or not this is my experience of Te vs. Ti. I think I kind of like the bossiness of Te if I respect the intelligence of the person being "bossy." It can make me feel safe or cared for (issues with ISTJ father figure???!!!) Te bossiness only becomes a problem for me if I think the person exerting it is a tool...I'm sure this has happened on more than one occasion with STJ bosses in the work place.

    Ti users, I think, I respect in terms of academic theory, but bother me more in personal conversation because the stuff they say can sound so convuluted and speculative and even gets confusing. I'm not saying it's never helpful, though, because the way INFJs use Ti is extremely palatable to me.


    As for emotional expression-I think Fe is much more likely to say "I feel this and need this emotional response from you" (I cant even speak Fe so that sounds all Te flavored ). Fi doesnt speak. You can see Fi by the things never said, the pauses. It is difficult to enunciate Fi. Not the silly NeFi us ENFPs use to play with, or how I can speak about Fi using Te. Really speaking with Fi-well thats kinda mute.
    My experiences with being super-close to Fe doms is to feel manipulated by it, honestly. My ESFJ friend pretty much makes me do things by doing things for me...I would feel too guilty not doing these things, because she greases the wheels. My ENFJ sister used to love to lecture me about how I "should" behave in different situations - sometimes to the point of not seeing her own fault in the same or similar situations. While I love her tact and her expertise with soothing ruffled feathers, this trait makes me want to choke her if I spend too much time with her.

    I've also known an extremely unhealthy ISFJ who liked to buy people little gifts or perform small acts of kindness all of the time then quietly - then eventually not so quietly but passive-aggressive manipulatively - would seethe with resentment if they didn't read her mind and do exactly what she wanted.

    That being said, my ENFJ best friend from high school just uses her Fe dom to "love the world" which means she's lovey-dovey, helpful, able to lead relationship dynamics, and her major downfall is just being over-committed to too many people then getting flakey. My ENFJ sister does that too.

    I love the way that healthy INFJs use Fe. They're like da bomb, totally. Healthy INFJs are so damn smooth. They should all be counselors or official peacemakers and diplomats.

    I think speaking with Fi is "mute" between fellow Fi users ... kind of like we "feel" each other. On the other hand, it can just present itself as either authentic, inspired, passionate... or as selfish displays of emotion, depending on whether the Fi is used in a negative or positive manner.

  7. #977
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    Quote Originally Posted by Happy Puppy View Post
    He was kinda screwed honestly, poor guy. I grew up with a family that used Fi manipulatively as a tool and weapon. They show you their Fi pain (ie whining), understanding inherently another Fi user will mirror that pain and be forced to help them. This only lasts so long before you build Te walls-that force the other Fi user to be accountable.
    I grew up with Fi and my wall is Ni.

    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    Ti users, I think, I respect in terms of academic theory, but bother me more in personal conversation because the stuff they say can sound so convuluted and speculative and even gets confusing. I'm not saying it's never helpful, though, because the way INFJs use Ti is extremely palatable to me.
    Thats why it doesnt come out much for me in real life. I am well aware how convoluted and speculative it is. I use it heavily on a personal level to get things done and sometimes it is called upon to confuse the crap out of Te and run circles around things. Its used heavily when Js become stubborn. Nothing more effective then throwing a whole lot out on the table to keep J types from actually being able to come to a conclusion. Probably a protection mechanism.
    Im out, its been fun

  8. #978
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by poki View Post
    I match your Te style of communication because I tend to walk people through things real time.
    That sounds like TiSe working together to feel like Te? Sound right? I dunno..

    Quote Originally Posted by poki View Post
    I responded "I dont want it, but if you want it I am fine with it" her response was "I want you to want it though". This is possibly Fe feeling selfish and wants the group to want something to keep from feeling selfish.
    This is where me and Fe part ways-I dont even understand her response here. If I want something I just say so, recognizing it may make the other person angry. When younger I would also just Fi clam up and then pout, but with an ISTP this was VERY pointless as he didnt see the Fi withdraw at all, thus my immature pouting was all in vain.

    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    Using the word "we" doesn't bother me as much, especially in terms of one-on-one friendships or relationships, or even in small tight-knit groups I happen to like it. I guess "we" bothers me more when it's overly generalized to a larger group, in a work situation, the entire family, etc. OR if it's used condecendingly ("now, we don't do that marmalade, do we?" )

    I totally relate to the Fi thing though. If I tell my story, and another Fi user tells me theirs, it comforts me. It's empathy. Identifying.

    However, I remember in one literature class I took this guy (who most likely an ISFJ, I'm pretty certain - I knew him outside of the class, we were friends at one point) used to get really annoyed because I would almost always relate things characters experienced in stories we read for the class back to myself or people I know. He thought it was self-absorbed, and openly expressed that thought, but it was just my way of trying to understand the experiences and feelings of others.
    Proteo pointed out the "I" thing. I really had no idea how much it annoys the Fe users. It's just the way I speak and think when using Fi. Using Te will switch to a very third person directive written or spoken language for me. So I am either selfish or bossy. What's a girl to do?

    What I actually did is took Proteo's advice and watch how I used speech. I stopped mirroring with Fe doms and auxs, and I try to ask them how they are doing. I try and communicate with Te with them as it seems more effective. Now when I interact with Fi users-even ISTJs-I very consciously mirror them, to the point they seek me out for emotional comfort.

    (Hmmm, I gave Amar a hard time about nudging, but I do it with the ISTJs for sure-just pure Fi blasts of appreciation and caring. I have had one get a little flirty but well, we were flirting a little. With the ISTJs the message seems to not get confused with sexual innuendos of any sort. This is not true with NTPs.)

    The Fe doms do drive me nuts with "group terms". Te says "Do this because it is the new way to do it." followed by a silent shut the fuck up and quit complaining. Fe says "The company has decided to follow a new procedure and with all of us working together as a team and we anticipate it will be a great success." so dont complain or you arent part of our team.

    However the take home is to ignore the discomfort the "we" terms induce and ask them very directly for what deliverables I owe. The other aspect is to be able to say clearly-No, I cannot do that for you-and not let the group "we" guilt induced make me change my mind.

    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    I can't discern whether or not this is my experience of Te vs. Ti. I think I kind of like the bossiness of Te if I respect the intelligence of the person being "bossy." It can make me feel safe or cared for (issues with ISTJ father figure???!!!) Te bossiness only becomes a problem for me if I think the person exerting it is a tool...I'm sure this has happened on more than one occasion with STJ bosses in the work place.

    Ti users, I think, I respect in terms of academic theory, but bother me more in personal conversation because the stuff they say can sound so convuluted and speculative and even gets confusing. I'm not saying it's never helpful, though, because the way INFJs use Ti is extremely palatable to me.
    IXTJs are a riot. I bring out the Ne in my ISTJs and make them all act kind a nuts honestly, although workplace stress and age may be a factor. Te just says stuff. Blunt, rude, offensive, harsh critical, fucked up shit. Then we all laugh our asses off. All of my INTJs are older and more reserved as well as more rare. (INTJs are weird) As my ENTPs and I get old, I find I offend their growing Fe, thus it can be hard to keep many of them close. It's sad as there is nothing more fun than Te no holds barred debate and discussion.

    Ti is another language-no shit. Te cant follow down Ti's path for more than a few steps, then it starts to get filled in with "blah, blah, blah". I read my entps emails to her aloud and fill them in with spoken blah, blah, blahs. She almost killed me.

    I am at the point where I can pick up a journal article and tell if it was written by Ti or Te, depending upon how I can follow it. On the converse, Ti cant think like Te either, so the ENTPs I work with can get so caught up in theory and a multitude of ideas but never get the Te big picture objective.

    The next time you and OMT start a lovemaking session, after each post take about an hour to think over what he wrote-you have to translate his Ti into your Te, which is hard without getting pissed.

    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    My experiences with being super-close to Fe doms is to feel manipulated by it, honestly.

    I love the way that healthy INFJs use Fe. They're like da bomb, totally. Healthy INFJs are so damn smooth. They should all be counselors or official peacemakers and diplomats.

    I think speaking with Fi is "mute" between fellow Fi users ... kind of like we "feel" each other. On the other hand, it can just present itself as either authentic, inspired, passionate... or as selfish displays of emotion, depending on whether the Fi is used in a negative or positive manner.
    Try this-ask your Fe users to be totally honest and give you critique about things that they find irritating. When Proteo will do this here, I learn amazing stuff that I never would have thought to question. "Really, I do that? Really, it's irritating?"

    It's hard to do this with ENTPs as it is such a visceral response from them, and it can be really hard to identify specific things to change, but ENFJs are awesome.

    Take the identified "issue", try and detach yourself from the emotional response and really figure out why you do it. When is it good? When is it bad? Is it close enough to your core that you can't not do it-like the emo emissions that drive the ENTPs nuts. Or is it something you can tone down recognizing it is not productive with everyone-the Fi mirroring for instance.

    Just my two cents though, bout how I use all this stuff. All just suggestions, so sorry if it seems bossy.

  9. #979
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    Quote Originally Posted by Litvyak View Post
    Now I don't mean to be rude, but I am going to say it like it is: you're a retard.
    Strictly statistically speaking, of course.

    ETA: Oh wait, you're the guy who got pwned by that ENFP chick, right? Get over your Weltschmerz, comforting yourself won't help a thing.
    This is very uncharacteristic of me...but go Fuck yourself!

  10. #980
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    Hey, my wife tests as a strong INTJ. She is not anything like the topic post's initial negative description.

    My Wife:
    They are vindictive: not at all
    cold: sometimes cold, but usually by negligence (lack of perceiving feelings.) Otherwise, she is very warm when I tell her how I feel
    insensitive: can be, but usually when stressed. If you get past the stress she can be very sensitive
    and mooch without so much as a thanks: never

    Are you basing your assessment on people who have been formally tested, or just on your labeling of people as INTJs?

    Now, I will tell you that I have met many traditional 'jerks' who are INTJ. I've worked with a few. Immature INTJs have a very hard time perceiving value in anything but a contest of idea fitness. This one is a sex-univsersal feature.

    Happy Puppy: My wife used to clam up and pout. But I refused to leave her alone until she expressed herself. It made things a lot better when she trusted me enough to tell me how she felt. I would always be patient. Sometimes it took her a day or a week to figure out how to say how she felt. It was important for me to hear.

    Typical immature male INTJ features I have worked with include stealing ideas on the basis of 'understanding them better', challenging everyone to debate duels, constantly claiming philosophical superiority in a stupid world, and obsessing over immature archetype media.

    The immature female INTJs I have worked with tend to label and attack non-logical thinkers through formal channels, withdraw from and show disdain for non-logical group work, consistently ignore input from colleagues judged inferior, and show an obsessive worship of ESTJ co-workers.

    Its this latter tendencies I listed for male and female INTJs where F types can get a latch on how isolated the F of an immature INTJ can be. As they grow and gain access to their F, they can grow to become really great people.

    I think one of the reasons INTJ maless often get a bad wrap is that their young personality is very nerdy or otherwise quiet, their young adult model is very angry, and their adult personality is never perceived by most people as it emerges after schooling is done. The greatest danger for an INTJ is between the ages of 12 and 25. Unfortunately, that's when things in life are the most chaotic and most people get the vast majority of their broad social exposure.

    Many ES types, on the contrary, grow up early in a world that likes them. They have an easier time from age 12 to 25. But then they seem to stagnate until they enter a crisis at mid life.

    My wife had her trouble when she was younger. But I grabbed her as she was coming out of it. She's amazing and great. She navigates her INTJ personality very healthily, and I'm the better for her being in my life.

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