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  1. #941
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    Quote Originally Posted by poki View Post
    Being an asshole works when the other person knows that thats not how you really are. Now if you joke in a way you are then it can get extremely confusing. So if you really are an asshole, you are gonna have a hard time playing an asshole as a joke. Your better off playing sweet, because you will then really throw people off.
    Not necessarily. People are complex. Someone who is sometimes sweet and sometimes an asshole can have a very funny assholish sense of humor, especially if they're just plain silly at other times. There's nothing confusing about it if you know the person.

  2. #942
    Was E.laur Laurie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by poki View Post
    Fight...Argue...Fight...Argue...Sucker Punch...Jokes...Derail...Jokes....Fight....Tension ....Argue....Jokes

    edit: oh were you wondering about the ENFP-INTJ thing? I got hung up on the NFP-ENTP thing.
    Haha, I know what I think about ENFP/INTJ, I wanted cliff notes on the drama thread, so that was perfect!

  3. #943
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    The other can play any way they like, but, shouldn't expect me to therefore, play by their rules, or they cry about it, when I don't. My mode of playing is, if they're trying to make the joke on me, I'm going to turn it, to be a joke on them.
    Fair enough.

    But depending a bit on the INTJ, the deadpan nonsense-speak isn't a joke on the other person. I for example do it to blow off steam or to illustrate something. At its core is some unstated reductio argument that, if stated directly, would strip away all the outlandish stuff and leave behind some elementary truth. The elementary truth is probably a little dry and perhaps abstract, and probably really isn't all that interesting if one doesn't flesh out the reductio case so thoroughly.

    I think that's the way it works. After all, mere fanciful bullshitting isn't all that entertaining.
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

    Boy meets Grr

  4. #944
    `~~Philosoflying~~` SillySapienne's Avatar
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    What I find interesting...

    As some of you may or may not know, I'm currently in a relationship with a confirmed INTJ, and, yes, I am a confirmed ENFP, for all y'all who don't know.

    And, well, the interesting thing is this...

    He does a whole lot more of the talking than I do!



    Yeah, I would say he talks 70% or 65% more than I do, probably closer to 70%, though.

    He might be weak on his I/E divide, in fact, I know he is.

    But, I find this perplexing.

    He is a very good listener, not the best, though.

    However, I find that I do a lot more of the listening in this relationship, is this common?

    With the INTJ/ENFP dynamic, that is?

    Usually, I am the listener in most, if not all, of my intimate relationships, (both romantic and platonic).

    However, I've known other INTJs in the past, and they were some of the only people in my life who I felt comfortable enough to truly open up to and talk about myself to.

    Such is not necessarily the case in my current relationship, not so much about my feeling uncomfortable as much as I feel that he tends to lose interest in what I have to say, so I just give the proverbial mic back to him.

    Thoughts?
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  5. #945
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SillySapienne View Post
    What I find interesting...

    As some of you may or may not know, I'm currently in a relationship with a confirmed INTJ, and, yes, I am a confirmed ENFP, for all y'all who don't know.

    And, well, the interesting thing is this...

    He does a whole lot more of the talking than I do!



    Yeah, I would say he talks 70% or 65% more than I do, probably closer to 70%, though.

    He might be weak on his I/E divide, in fact, I know he is.

    But, I find this perplexing.

    He is a very good listener, not the best, though.

    However, I find that I do a lot more of the listening in this relationship, is this common?

    With the INTJ/ENFP dynamic, that is?

    Usually, I am the listener in most, if not all, of my intimate relationships, (both romantic and platonic).

    However, I've known other INTJs in the past, and they were some of the only people in my life who I felt comfortable enough to truly open up to and talk about myself to.

    Such is not necessarily the case in my current relationship, not so much about my feeling uncomfortable as much as I feel that he tends to lose interest in what I have to say, so I just give the proverbial mic back to him.

    Thoughts?
    I think you're letting him talk more, because you want the interaction more than you want to have the floor.

    And yeah, he probably loses interest in the specific things you have to say, but he's not losing interest in you. It's how Ni works.

    Here, let me explain ...

    From my own experience, there are times when I want to listen to someone I like, but I'm really not focusing on what they're saying. I'm more kind of hearing the music of their voice, feeling the affection directed toward me, basking in the attention. Like having a cat purring in your lap, except she's talking happily instead of purring.

    Also, I should say that it isn't that I'm paying no attention, but it's how Ni works. For an INxJ, after you say 3 words, I know the next 30 you're going to say more or less, and I'm not listening to what you say, but rather listening for whether you say anything I don't expect. Most people's speech is full of "um's" and "ah's" and pauses, and thought gatherings, and my Ni is just filtering all that out, running a parallel process, listening for patterns, predicting patterns. When you say something I don't expect, then you have my full attention again, and I have pull in Se and be present in the moment rather than living in my head.

    So what I see going on is that you're feeling his Ni kick in, and it feels like you're being ignored. (Ni has kind of an autistic feel to it, to non-Ni people.) You can tell by our body language that we aren't focused in on you in an Se way, and it feels alienating. You might want to address this with him if you really want more specific attention, but for the most part, you're going to have to accept it as an "Ni thing." Trust me, he's still right there. You're in his space, talking to him, and he's not pushing you away. That's the INTJ way of expressing a deep and abiding affection.

  6. #946
    `~~Philosoflying~~` SillySapienne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    I think you're letting him talk more, because you want the interaction more than you want to have the floor.

    And yeah, he probably loses interest in the specific things you have to say, but he's not losing interest in you. It's how Ni works.

    Here, let me explain ...

    From my own experience, there are times when I want to listen to someone I like, but I'm really not focusing on what they're saying. I'm more kind of hearing the music of their voice, feeling the affection directed toward me, basking in the attention. Like having a cat purring in your lap, except she's talking happily instead of purring.

    Also, I should say that it isn't that I'm paying no attention, but it's how Ni works. For an INxJ, after you say 3 words, I know the next 30 you're going to say more or less, and I'm not listening to what you say, but rather listening for whether you say anything I don't expect. Most people's speech is full of "um's" and "ah's" and pauses, and thought gatherings, and my Ni is just filtering all that out, running a parallel process, listening for patterns, predicting patterns. When you say something I don't expect, then you have my full attention again, and I have pull in Se and be present in the moment rather than living in my head.

    So what I see going on is that you're feeling his Ni kick in, and it feels like you're being ignored. (Ni has kind of an autistic feel to it, to non-Ni people.) You can tell by our body language that we aren't focused in on you in an Se way, and it feels alienating. You might want to address this with him if you really want more specific attention, but for the most part, you're going to have to accept it as an "Ni thing." Trust me, he's still right there. You're in his space, talking to him, and he's not pushing you away. That's the INTJ way of expressing a deep and abiding affection.
    Fascinating and insightful stuff here, thank you.

    I already commented on his lack of eye-contact, what I call his eye-contact issues, and I mentioned how it seems slightly autistic, too!!!

    What is it with you INTJs and eye-contact, so weird!!!

    `
    'Cause you can't handle me...

    "A lie is a lie even if everyone believes it. The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it." - David Stevens

    "That that is, is. That that is not, is not. Is that it? It is."

    Veritatem dies aperit

    Ride si sapis

    Intelligentle sparkles

  7. #947
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SillySapienne View Post
    Fascinating and insightful stuff here, thank you.

    I already commented on his lack of eye-contact, what I call his eye-contact issues, and I mentioned how it seems slightly autistic, too!!!

    What is it with you INTJs and eye-contact, so weird!!!

    I suspect the problem is that eye-contact triggers Se, and turns off Ni. Se works great with Fi, so if you just want to let loose those "googly eyes," as Happy Puppy calls them, I suspect most INTJs are good with that. But if you want us to listen to your words, and your words are not Fi affection words, but whatever abstract concept or feeling you want to talk about, we actually listen better with Ni(/Te) than with Se.

    It just doesn't "feel like" listening, to you.

    Oh, and don't ask us to repeat what you said, that's Si, not Ni. Rather, we'll summarize what you said in about 2 very terse sentences.

  8. #948
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    Fair enough.

    But depending a bit on the INTJ, the deadpan nonsense-speak isn't a joke on the other person. I for example do it to blow off steam or to illustrate something. At its core is some unstated reductio argument that, if stated directly, would strip away all the outlandish stuff and leave behind some elementary truth. The elementary truth is probably a little dry and perhaps abstract, and probably really isn't all that interesting if one doesn't flesh out the reductio case so thoroughly.
    I can understand that - the dressing up of the elementary truth, and often, giving it a sardonic flavour (which adds layers, without needing to explain every layered connection dryly)...can make the point hit home more effectively and succintly.

    Body language helps in this regard a lot - when my INTJ's eyes are focused directly on my face, yet scanning: my eyes, my expressions - he's looking for my reaction to his joke more than he is looking for investigation of the deeper truth in the joke. When his eyes look directly at my eyes, penetrating, holding my gaze, with that glint of imploring, you can see a question in there - where he's looking to see if I can understand the truth behind the joke, the truth that he's presenting, and wanting my thoughts on, and that it's not really about the impact of his joke.

    There's also something else that happens, when we're exchanging veiled ideas as "insults" and jokes, where he's really more about getting a firm hold on his idea - he deadpans some "extreme" to afford him some time. Deflect. So that, in the time it takes for me to react to the distraction (the extreme), his core truth can be more solidified in understanding, from his end. And a more precise response would be ready for when it's his turn again. Ne/Ti against Ni/Te.......I got speed on my side, Ni slows him down. In our exchange, I probably average more hits than misses, but, the hits that he does get in, it's more substantial in content.


    I think that's the way it works. After all, mere fanciful bullshitting isn't all that entertaining.
    Fanciful bullshitting, when practiced as an artform (), can present the same type of core truths, if you take in all the context surrounding it. Cut through the cheese, so to speak.

    The difference of perception also rises from the delivery: dead-pan making a case to be taken more seriously than say, ENTP- flavourful response, with a flair.

    As well, it's not layers built on layers, like Ni, with a core truth at the center.

    Ne has its hands, simultaneously, in far more cookie jars than most people interpret it to have - and it can seem superficial in that sense, when only the blatant association is considered, just one of the truth, which might not seem very deep, in isolation, thus "mere".

    But that's because not all the associations, all the truths, that relate (one truth gives credence to another truth, which leads to another, to another), have been considered by the other party - the web is far more tangled than most people interpret it to be because they only focus on the spider at the center of it as the reality, as the only relevant truth. They forget that the spider is supported by the web, which is supported by the branch, which is supported by the tree, which is supported by the earth, and on, and on, we go...

    The INTJ often finds such Ne rush coming from multiple angles, overwhelming, like I do, his Ni focus....

  9. #949
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Also, I should say that it isn't that I'm paying no attention, but it's how Ni works. For an INxJ, after you say 3 words, I know the next 30 you're going to say more or less, and I'm not listening to what you say, but rather listening for whether you say anything I don't expect. Most people's speech is full of "um's" and "ah's" and pauses, and thought gatherings, and my Ni is just filtering all that out, running a parallel process, listening for patterns, predicting patterns. When you say something I don't expect, then you have my full attention again, and I have pull in Se and be present in the moment rather than living in my head.
    I recognize this in me and pretty much when I am at this stage of Ni nothing will suprise me. I have pretty much went through every possible scenario, know the worst and hope for the best.
    Im out, its been fun

  10. #950
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    I think you're letting him talk more, because you want the interaction more than you want to have the floor.

    And yeah, he probably loses interest in the specific things you have to say, but he's not losing interest in you. It's how Ni works.

    Here, let me explain ...

    From my own experience, there are times when I want to listen to someone I like, but I'm really not focusing on what they're saying. I'm more kind of hearing the music of their voice, feeling the affection directed toward me, basking in the attention. Like having a cat purring in your lap, except she's talking happily instead of purring.

    Also, I should say that it isn't that I'm paying no attention, but it's how Ni works. For an INxJ, after you say 3 words, I know the next 30 you're going to say more or less, and I'm not listening to what you say, but rather listening for whether you say anything I don't expect. Most people's speech is full of "um's" and "ah's" and pauses, and thought gatherings, and my Ni is just filtering all that out, running a parallel process, listening for patterns, predicting patterns. When you say something I don't expect, then you have my full attention again, and I have pull in Se and be present in the moment rather than living in my head.

    So what I see going on is that you're feeling his Ni kick in, and it feels like you're being ignored. (Ni has kind of an autistic feel to it, to non-Ni people.) You can tell by our body language that we aren't focused in on you in an Se way, and it feels alienating. You might want to address this with him if you really want more specific attention, but for the most part, you're going to have to accept it as an "Ni thing." Trust me, he's still right there. You're in his space, talking to him, and he's not pushing you away. That's the INTJ way of expressing a deep and abiding affection.
    ss, once you settle, do you find the Ni a bit entrancing? If I have time, I will actually stop and sit and listen to the INTJ talk about whatever.

    U-is there a sense of cadence here-the sing song?

    I vote for some sort of mutual Ni-Ne induction occurring between the two people. Like enfps can induce Fi in other Fi users via the "nudge" amar mentions.

    I must now dance with the intj toddler who has an Se need for this sort of thing.

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