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  1. #861
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    I guess you haven't read the book, either. It's about a guy who talks about his friend who bought a brand new BMW bike, but when it breaks down, has to go to the mechanic every time because he doesn't bother with learning how to deal with it himself. On the other hand, the narrator has an old bike he constantly maintains, but not for the bike itself. Through the maintenance of the bike, and learning about it, he learns deep truths about the nature of things. For one, the bike isn't a collection of material parts, but rather a human construct. Not only that, but the steel used for the bike isn't even a concrete reality, but a human construct - steel doesn't exist in nature, someone had to imagine it. Both the bike and the steel truly exist in the human imagination, while the material manifestation of them are the true abstractions. So on and so forth, through the application of logical analysis to the most seemingly basic of tasks, he uncovers more and more concepts of reality, deeper than his friend who thought himself superior to mere manual tasks as that one.

    Like I said - really smart. In fact, I think Newton may have been an ISTP.
    So are you saying an ISTP wrote that book? Or an ISTP reads that book. Look at what I do to reality, how I cross reference all this crap off the top of my head. Its one thing to "read" about and regurgitate, its another to actually do this. I am trying to get you to see something. Please keep explaining onemoretime, you are helping me understand what it is I do, but I do it at a practical level.
    Im out, its been fun

  2. #862
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    Quote Originally Posted by poki View Post
    So are you saying an ISTP wrote that book? Or an ISTP reads that book. Look at what I do to reality, how I cross reference all this crap off the top of my head. Its one thing to "read" about and regurgitate, its another to actually do this. I am trying to get you to see something. Please keep explaining onemoretime, you are helping me understand what it is I do, but I do it at a practical level.
    Yes, it was a very, very ISTP man (Robert Pirsig) who wrote the book.

    One of the things he writes about is how most people understand a material object as having a shape about it, and that to him, this denies the nature of that material. Steel, for example, can have any shape that the person who works upon it wants it to, it all exists within that person's mind and abilities to shape reality how he conceives it. Consequently, it is in the process of shaping and manipulating reality that you discover truths about reality, both in the successes one finds and the difficulties one runs into. Eventually, once a person has discovered enough truths about reality, the act of doing new things becomes less and less unfamiliar, because the same rules, as discovered through the art of doing, apply throughout reality. It is the classic principles of logical analysis, as discovered through material experimentation, that allows a person to make predictions about unfamiliar situations, simply because a person knows the variables, and knows how they interplay with one another.

  3. #863
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    Yes, it was a very, very ISTP man (Robert Pirsig) who wrote the book.

    One of the things he writes about is how most people understand a material object as having a shape about it, and that to him, this denies the nature of that material. Steel, for example, can have any shape that the person who works upon it wants it to, it all exists within that person's mind and abilities to shape reality how he conceives it. Consequently, it is in the process of shaping and manipulating reality that you discover truths about reality, both in the successes one finds and the difficulties one runs into. Eventually, once a person has discovered enough truths about reality, the act of doing new things becomes less and less unfamiliar, because the same rules, as discovered through the art of doing, apply throughout reality. It is the classic principles of logical analysis, as discovered through material experimentation, that allows a person to make predictions about unfamiliar situations, simply because a person knows the variables, and knows how they interplay with one another.
    I am half tempted to go back through my posts on here and link up parts of what you said to what I write. That book though sounds to deep to really apply to life in a practical and functional manner. That was pretty much exactly what I said in my thread about management and also helping the NFP in regards to jumping from structure to structure, how everything interacts, leveraging what it is thats in front of you and playing off of that.

    Knowing where boundaries are, knowing what variables can play with, knowing when I hit the wrong one, understanding and stepping back. I can play with my mind on this level. Knowing that I can change my intention, which changes how I respond, which changes how I feel. I play with this stuff like there aint no tomorrow and I can tell you the depth of that book sounds useless and impractical.
    Im out, its been fun

  4. #864
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    Quote Originally Posted by poki View Post
    I am half tempted to go back through my posts on here and link up parts of what you said to what I write. That book though sounds to deep to really apply to life in a practical and functional manner. That was pretty much exactly what I said in my thread about management and also helping the NFP in regards to jumping from structure to structure, how everything interacts, leveraging what it is thats in front of you and playing off of that.

    Knowing where boundaries are, knowing what variables can play with, knowing when I hit the wrong one, understanding and stepping back. I can play with my mind on this level. Knowing that I can change my intention, which changes how I respond, which changes how I feel. I play with this stuff like there aint no tomorrow and I can tell you the depth of that book sounds useless and impractical.
    Of course, because you already know it. Most people don't. So they go around and try to impose some concept of reality on you, without bothering to actually find out what's real. That's why the book was written - to tell the rest of them to kindly STFU (it was the '60s, you know).

  5. #865
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    Of course, because you already know it. Most people don't. So they go around and try to impose some concept of reality on you, without bothering to actually find out what's real. That's why the book was written - to tell the rest of them to kindly STFU (it was the '60s, you know).
    That is life though, that is reality. People imposing things upon you is reality. Everything is reality along with people telling you to kindly STFU.

    Until you learn to accept everything around you as reality, you will fight it.

    What do you know, we have been fighting the same thing in pretty much every aspect of our life.

    Welcome to life one big huge balancing act.
    Im out, its been fun

  6. #866
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    Quote Originally Posted by poki View Post
    That is life though, that is reality. People imposing things upon you is reality. Everything is reality along with people telling you to kindly STFU.

    Until you learn to accept everything around you as reality, you will fight it.

    What do you know, we have been fighting the same thing in pretty much every aspect of our life.

    Welcome to life one big huge balancing act.
    Is it fighting it, or is it simply remaking it in one's own image, according to one's own will? Creation, as you know, requires effort and skill.

  7. #867
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    Is it fighting it, or is it simply remaking it in one's own image, according to one's own will? Creation, as you know, requires effort and skill.
    Are you talking an internal fight or an external fight? How well do you notice when an internal fight is turned externally or an external fight is turned internally?


    Perception requires an understanding of what your seeing.
    Im out, its been fun

  8. #868
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    Quote Originally Posted by poki View Post
    Are you talking an internal fight or an external fight? How well do you notice when an internal fight is turned externally or an external fight is turned internally?


    Perception requires an understanding of what your seeing.
    Is there any meaningful distinction?

  9. #869
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    Is there any meaningful distinction?
    Have you ever tried to help someone who turns an internal fight externally. You try to help them in the direction they say they want to go and they fight it.

    To give you an example. Fear. Have you ever had someone want something but had an internal fear they cant get past. They tell you what they want, but when you do it, they fight it because they fear it. They just turned that internal fight of fear vs want externally.

    When someone takes an external fight internally. All they know is the impression or feeling they got and the data that was on the table at the time. They lose half of the perception because of it and they run in circles over and over because it cant be solved internally.

    Have you ever had anyone close down and refuse to accept anymore incoming data in essence creating that internal circle that build on itself.
    Im out, its been fun

  10. #870
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    Quote Originally Posted by poki View Post
    Have you ever tried to help someone who turns an internal fight externally. You try to help them in the direction they say they want to go and they fight it.

    To give you an example. Fear. Have you ever had someone want something but had an internal fear they cant get past. They tell you what they want, but when you do it, they fight it because they fear it. They just turned that internal fight of fear vs want externally.

    When someone takes an external fight internally. All they know is the impression or feeling they got and the data that was on the table at the time. They lose half of the perception because of it and they run in circles over and over because it cant be solved internally.

    Have you ever had anyone close down and refuse to accept anymore incoming data in essence creating that internal circle that build on itself.
    Yes. At that point, the internal struggle and the external one are so intertwined as to have no meaningful distinction between one another. Perception is so heavily distorted that in essence, that becomes their reality, separate from what we objectively agree upon.

    Simply because it's delusional, doesn't mean for that person, it's not true. Otherwise, we wouldn't have billion-person religions.

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