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  1. #851
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    I find it strange as an SP you don't know what the concrete world means. Is it a situation where you speak a language besides English and so don't get the metaphor?

    The concrete world is the here and now, it's what Se is looking at. It's why my SP ex could easily remember license plate numbers, had great reaction time, won in fights, and noticed people's facial expressions or the look in their eye...because his brain was not always, but usually, focused on living in the concrete world, while I on the other hand missed these details, as well as lacking hand eye coordination, because I've spent so much of my life reading and being inside my own head.

    He used to say, "there is the way the world is, and the way you want it to be, marmalade...you seem to have a problem accepting the world as it is."

    Do you understand now? Surely you relate, but perhaps describe it in different words?
    I guess what confuses me is that NFPs are part of this world and so is their lack of "paying attention". To me when they dont accept you as who you are they arent accepting all of reality or the "world" just the parts they deem "concrete". It just throws me off and seems like tunnel vision.
    Im out, its been fun

  2. #852
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    Quote Originally Posted by poki View Post
    I guess what confuses me is that NFPs are part of this world and so is their lack of "paying attention". To me when they dont accept you as who you are they arent accepting all of reality or the "world" just the parts they deem "concrete". It just throws me off and seems like tunnel vision.
    NFPs, or at least in my case, do see the concrete world but use it as a springboard for possibilities. SPs, on the other hand, only see it as the here and now and aren't as interested in possibilities. I appreciated my husband's ability to only live in the here and now because that's not where I spend most of my time. So, he saw things I didn't. Meaning, he saw details that I would overlook (certain bills I needed to pay, car or bike maintenance, the ability to use tools effectively and creatively, etc.) And, there were times I know he appreciated me for seeing things he couldn't. But, he didn't trust my intuition or my ability to see into a situation and know the outcome without 'testing' it or verifying it against 'reality.' He had kind of an insistence on his way of viewing the world and would tease me whenever I had to use a 'tool.' I know how to read a manual, assemble something, use tools (very SP things), they just bore me to tears. It's not tunnel visiion. If you'll excuse the pun, that's a narrow way of looking at it. I don't insist that others be as interested in possbiliites as I am. The S/N divide can be spanned in a relationship but it takes a lot of work for both parties.

  3. #853
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lauren View Post
    NFPs, or at least in my case, do see the concrete world but use it as a springboard for possibilities. SPs, on the other hand, only see it as the here and now and aren't as interested in possibilities. I appreciated my husband's ability to only live in the here and now because that's not where I spend most of my time. So, he saw things I didn't. Meaning, he saw details that I would overlook (certain bills I needed to pay, car or bike maintenance, the ability to use tools effectively and creatively, etc.) And, there were times I know he appreciated me for seeing things he couldn't. But, he didn't trust my intuition or my ability to see into a situation and know the outcome without 'testing' it or verifying it against 'reality.' He had kind of an insistence on his way of viewing the world and would tease me whenever I had to use a 'tool.' I know how to read a manual, assemble something, use tools (very SP things), they just bore me to tears. It's not tunnel visiion. If you'll excuse the pun, that's a narrow way of looking at it. I don't insist that others be as interested in possbiliites as I am. The S/N divide can be spanned in a relationship but it takes a lot of work for both parties.
    The part I bolded is "not" tunnel vision, but the SP you refer to sounds insistant and judgemental of others being interested in possibilities. The fact that he insists on the way he sees something is tunnel vision and closed minded. Maybe its the fact that I grew up with an NFP and I unerstand 100% that their are many ways to skin a cat. I have always tossed up my heavy use of possibilities to Ni which as a tertiary is very heavily used in me as an ISTP. I just think in determining SPs people focus to much on "concrete" I mean ESTP and ISTJ are dominant S types, to me those woud be the ones who are more stuck in the "concrete world". It doesnt make logical sense. The only way I can see it adding up is if you put to much weight into the term "concrete world". ISTP with a aux Se and a tertiary Ni are gonna be pretty balanced in terms of N/S.

    I am actually thinking of changing my type just because of this stigma that is ISTP and the "concrete world". Have nothing against these people, I just prefer to have my Ti and P shine though and be a very open and accepting person as opposed to judgemental of how others go about things.

    edit: whether he is right or wrong or good at what he does not change the fact that it is judgemental. He can choose how he wants to do things, but the second he "judges" you on how you do it makes himjudgemental. I have personally never seen myself as a judgmental type and dont know anyone that would, that is one reason people think I am so laid back is because I dont judge the way others go about things.
    Im out, its been fun

  4. #854
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    Ti, for those of us who do not use it-use it, can seem like tunnel vision, thorough as it might be.

    `
    'Cause you can't handle me...

    "A lie is a lie even if everyone believes it. The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it." - David Stevens

    "That that is, is. That that is not, is not. Is that it? It is."

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  5. #855
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    Quote Originally Posted by poki View Post
    I am actually thinking of changing my type just because of this stigma that is ISTP and the "concrete world". Have nothing against these people, I just prefer to have my Ti and P shine though and be a very open and accepting person as opposed to judgemental of how others go about things.
    Don't do that. Anyone who thinks ISTPs can only live in the concrete world hasn't read "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance". All perceivers (and indeed, all humans) think about things that go beyond concrete reality (how would anyone be an artist if this weren't the case?). The difference between the Ne lens and the Se lens is that the former starts from the abstract principles and works its way outward, while the latter starts from the concrete understanding and works its way inward (sounds a bit like Ni, doesn't it?).

    ISTPs are smart. Really fucking smart. It's just that they may not often reveal it, because no one bothers asking them.

  6. #856
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    Don't do that. Anyone who thinks ISTPs can only live in the concrete world hasn't read "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance". All perceivers (and indeed, all humans) think about things that go beyond concrete reality (how would anyone be an artist if this weren't the case?). The difference between the Ne lens and the Se lens is that the former starts from the abstract principles and works its way outward, while the former starts from the concrete understanding and works its way inward (sounds a bit like Ni, doesn't it?).

    ISTPs are smart. Really fucking smart. It's just that they may not often reveal it, because no one bothers asking them.
    Please correct the bolded.

    Also change your "read" example. Maintenance is a J task. The more appropriate for me would be the "megasquirt" manual and forum. How to install and program a standalone DIY computer management system in a car. Screw having someone do it for you or tell you exactly what to do, you miss out on learning how it all works.

    No one bothers asking me, but some how people always get that impression of me by what I do.

    Still none of that changes the judgemental impression others get that seem to follow ISTP. Im not arguing ISTP being smart, never have.
    Im out, its been fun

  7. #857
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by poki View Post
    Please correct the bolded.

    Also change your "read" example. Maintenance is a J task. The more appropriate for me would be the "megasquirt" manual and forum. How to install and program a standalone DIY computer management system in a car. Screw having someone do it for you or tell you exactly what to do, you miss out on learning how it all works.

    No one bothers asking me, but some how people always get that impression of me by what I do.

    Still none of that changes the judgemental impression others get that seem to follow ISTP. Im not arguing ISTP being smart, never have.
    I guess you haven't read the book, either. It's about a guy who talks about his friend who bought a brand new BMW bike, but when it breaks down, has to go to the mechanic every time because he doesn't bother with learning how to deal with it himself. On the other hand, the narrator has an old bike he constantly maintains, but not for the bike itself. Through the maintenance of the bike, and learning about it, he learns deep truths about the nature of things. For one, the bike isn't a collection of material parts, but rather a human construct. Not only that, but the steel used for the bike isn't even a concrete reality, but a human construct - steel doesn't exist in nature, someone had to imagine it. Both the bike and the steel truly exist in the human imagination, while the material manifestation of them are the true abstractions. So on and so forth, through the application of logical analysis to the most seemingly basic of tasks, he uncovers more and more concepts of reality, deeper than his friend who thought himself superior to mere manual tasks as that one.

    Like I said - really smart. In fact, I think Newton may have been an ISTP.

  8. #858
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    ISTPs are smart. Really fucking smart. It's just that they may not often reveal it, because no one bothers asking them.
    Truth.

    The ISTPs I've known, three, to be exact, have all been RIDICULOUSLY INTELLIGENT!!!!

    And, the ISTP I intimately know is, hands down, one of the smartest guys I've ever met.

    So honest, and.... so fucking deep.

    :deep:
    `
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    "A lie is a lie even if everyone believes it. The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it." - David Stevens

    "That that is, is. That that is not, is not. Is that it? It is."

    Veritatem dies aperit

    Ride si sapis

    Intelligentle sparkles

  9. #859
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    Quote Originally Posted by SillySapienne View Post
    Truth.

    The ISTPs I've known, three, to be exact, have all been RIDICULOUSLY INTELLIGENT!!!!

    And, the ISTP I intimately know is, hands down, one of the smartest guys I've ever met.

    So honest, and.... so fucking deep.

    :deep:
    I know an extremely intelligent eSFP. He's not "intellectual" and has an unstable artistic temperament (like me...?), but he's one of the smarter people I've met and it always bothers me that people assume that ESFPs are "stupid."

    As far as ISTPs go, I've been told they're the most N of the Ss. I tend to like them. There's a lot of them on this site.

  10. #860
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    I know an extremely intelligent eSFP. He's not "intellectual" and has an unstable artistic temperament (like me...?), but he's one of the smarter people I've met and it always bothers me that people assume that ESFPs are "stupid."

    As far as ISTPs go, I've been told they're the most N of the Ss. I tend to like them. There's a lot of them on this site.
    I agree with this thought about ISTPs or ISFPs--that they are intelligent, interesting, and make connections others might not make. That's one of the things I liked most about my ex-husband. I admired his ability to understand how things really worked in the world and from there, he could deduce all kinds of things. He has a wide-ranging intelligence. It was the judgmental aspect and a fierce independence (which I also like but which excluded me almost entirely) that made him so difficult to live with.

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