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  1. #821
    `~~Philosoflying~~` SillySapienne's Avatar
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    I know incredibly intimately an ISTP, with such a pronounced SUPER-Ti, that once you get him talking about something he's thought about thoroughly, my oh my....

    He won't stfu.

    Seriously, he won't.

    Neither will he want your input, as they'd be mere interruptions in his thought process/monologue, plus, according to him, he's already thought every possible contingency/question through.

    `
    'Cause you can't handle me...

    "A lie is a lie even if everyone believes it. The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it." - David Stevens

    "That that is, is. That that is not, is not. Is that it? It is."

    Veritatem dies aperit

    Ride si sapis

    Intelligentle sparkles

  2. #822
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Ok, so I poised Question of intjs and testing the other day. Cause it sort of "feels" that way.

    I think I figured this out.

    Been on a trip to san fran and spent yesterday working with an intj engineer at a another company.

    55 years or so, sweet threads of Fi, moderate to mild Te in normal convo.

    Then he looks at my instrument (not that you dirty minded entps, the actual instrument I sell). I have known this guy for about three years professionally.

    When he looks at my "box" (this is fun), my stomach drops and I get kinda bummed out.

    Why?

    Becasue we will start down the NiTe path. I enjoy it if it is a path of troublshooting or mutual sharing.

    Alas, when looks at my box, he is another path-discovery and assesment. He knows there are flaws.

    Step by step, question by question he finds them. Always.

    Like an autopsy of my equipment.

    With an entp, I can sparkle and dazzle-distract or just confuse an intp-by random insanity.

    With intjs on a "path", it is much harder to derail-i think they can "feel" what they don't know and dig until they find the pivot point-the crux, the flaw.


    What is hard is that I seek to make my customers happy, due to a drive for emo affirmation and Fi mirrored happiness.

    Problematically the end of the NiTe path typically ends up as a fundemental flaw-somthing I cannot resolve. Thus I failed in my nefi mandate of pleasing the other.

    I can't remedy the intellectual inconsistancy/fundemental flaw in the product-which nefi translates into "unhappiness" thus I get kinda bummed out.

    Intjs-is it enough to get to the end of the path and understand the truth?

    Do you expect others to resolve?

    Would you ideally create your own resolution?

    This same dynamic might bubble up occasionally as a pattern in the intj/enfp relationship. I dunno though....

  3. #823
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SillySapienne View Post
    I know incredibly intimately an ISTP, with such a pronounced SUPER-Ti, that once you get him talking about something he's thought about thoroughly, my oh my....

    He won't stfu.

    Seriously, he won't.

    Neither will he want your input, as they'd be mere interruptions in his thought process/monologue, plus, according to him, he's already thought every possible contingency/question through.

    Hmmmm, mine never talked much-but neither did he want or need my input either. It was all physical application.

    K said ne can drive ni w tese in gear nuts

    Wonder if this is same idea w istps-just NiSe in different pattern.

    Also istps with intj dads. -mine too? A pattern perhaps? I like the NiSe connection.

  4. #824
    `~~Philosoflying~~` SillySapienne's Avatar
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    Hmmm, within a new social group, or one that he didn't feel comfortable with, my ISTP would become a mute.

    I think, like many ITPs, when they are comfortable with their audience, and the content of the dialogue, they will yammer away, er, no, LECTURE away like it's nobody's biznasssss!!!

    `
    'Cause you can't handle me...

    "A lie is a lie even if everyone believes it. The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it." - David Stevens

    "That that is, is. That that is not, is not. Is that it? It is."

    Veritatem dies aperit

    Ride si sapis

    Intelligentle sparkles

  5. #825
    Was E.laur Laurie's Avatar
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    My INTJ close friend used to compare the amount of words we spent IMing (on top of skyping) to the number of words in the LOTR trilogy.

    That should say it all.

  6. #826
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    Oh god yes, sign me up!!!
    And yes to the riding horses!!!!



    YLJ



    Yes where the hell is that smiley :steam:

    Poki, I'm scared out in the wild while it's dark...can I share your hammock? *innocent look*
    I like the dark. Would never turn down helping someone with a fear.

    Quote Originally Posted by Happy Puppy View Post
    Istps mostly do live behind the scenes. They are not very verbal typically, but they exert themselves on the physical Ti problems around them-those they can touch-from Se I suppose, thus pushing to the foreground as those problems are a tangible aspect of the groups shared reality.

    Istps can fix anything. Trust me.

    But how does Ni influence the way they choose to fix the problem? If an intj seeks a solution that is tnagible, even if the result of a Ni abstraction,

    I'd assume poki would perceive the practicality of the problem at hand but use the "force" of Ni to identify new ways to solve which were like....oh I give up, do tell us poki!!
    Yes the practicality of the problem would be really accurate. Concepts pop into my head almost instantly in regard to what I have experience in. I wanted to be an architect, but it would be more a systems architect. Talking with an ENTP they want to really dig into the details, where as I really enjoy putting things together high level. This is why ENTPs use outside sources to understand the high level or patterns and theories. I go outside to get the detail and turn it high level and play with concepts.

    If I were to become a manager I would be a type that works for my employees and turn to them for details and I play with the high level concepts to solve problems. Alot of managers like to lay out the detail and have the employees provide high level concepts, but then they must turn to them to dig into the details and provide it back up to the manager as a detailed plan of action. Managers become nothing more then detail gatherers and nothing more then a post man taking in mail and handing it out. This is Te driven management as opposed to Ni driven management. They become detail gatherers instead of idea generators based on past experience. Unlike Ne though I dont expand out, but more focused on finding solutions for problems. I am not a brainstormer in where we should go, but a brainstormer in how to get from point A to point B. Turning to others to feed me the detail of what they see.

    edit: I have always earned the title "secret weapon" among immediate managers.
    Im out, its been fun

  7. #827
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Happy Puppy View Post
    Intjs-is it enough to get to the end of the path and understand the truth?

    Do you expect others to resolve?

    Would you ideally create your own resolution?


    This same dynamic might bubble up occasionally as a pattern in the intj/enfp relationship. I dunno though....
    Depends who owns the vision. For whatever aspect of the world they're working on, be it some external project or some relationship struggle, who owns the vision of the future?
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

    Boy meets Grr

  8. #828
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by poki View Post
    Yes the practicality of the problem would be really accurate. Concepts pop into my head almost instantly in regard to what I have experience in. I wanted to be an architect, but it would be more a systems architect. Talking with an ENTP they want to really dig into the details, where as I really enjoy putting things together high level. This is why ENTPs use outside sources to understand the high level or patterns and theories. I go outside to get the detail and turn it high level and play with concepts.

    If I were to become a manager I would be a type that works for my employees and turn to them for details and I play with the high level concepts to solve problems. Alot of managers like to lay out the detail and have the employees provide high level concepts, but then they must turn to them to dig into the details and provide it back up to the manager as a detailed plan of action. Managers become nothing more then detail gatherers and nothing more then a post man taking in mail and handing it out. This is Te driven management as opposed to Ni driven management. They become detail gatherers instead of idea generators based on past experience. Unlike Ne though I dont expand out, but more focused on finding solutions for problems. I am not a brainstormer in where we should go, but a brainstormer in how to get from point A to point B. Turning to others to feed me the detail of what they see.

    edit: I have always earned the title "secret weapon" among immediate managers.
    See, that reads as Chart-The-Course. Lots of stuff you write reads as Chart-The-Course, telling it like it is so that other people don't need to go wrong by missing the important points.

    It can't be the kingmaker functions that produce this because SFPs have Se and Ni too but they stay in their allocated Interaction style zone. It's only the STPs that jump out of the orderly progression: the IJs are Chart the Course but ISTP muscles in; the EJs are In-Charge, but ESTP muscles in. What is it that does that?

    I ask in this context because... I dunno. Something about Se.
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

    Boy meets Grr

  9. #829
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    Quote Originally Posted by Happy Puppy View Post

    Then he looks at my instrument (not that you dirty minded entps, the actual instrument I sell). I have known this guy for about three years professionally.

    When he looks at my "box" (this is fun), my stomach drops and I get kinda bummed out.

    Why?

    Becasue we will start down the NiTe path. I enjoy it if it is a path of troublshooting or mutual sharing.

    Alas, when looks at my box, he is another path-discovery and assesment. He knows there are flaws.

    Step by step, question by question he finds them. Always.

    Like an autopsy of my equipment.
    Couldn't this be helpful? Like someone with strengths supporting you in an area you lack?

    With an entp, I can sparkle and dazzle-distract or just confuse an intp-by random insanity.

    With intjs on a "path", it is much harder to derail-i think they can "feel" what they don't know and dig until they find the pivot point-the crux, the flaw.
    What exactly do you want to derail...criticism? I need clarification because I'm not sure what you mean here.


    What is hard is that I seek to make my customers happy, due to a drive for emo affirmation and Fi mirrored happiness.

    Problematically the end of the NiTe path typically ends up as a fundemental flaw-somthing I cannot resolve. Thus I failed in my nefi mandate of pleasing the other.

    I can't remedy the intellectual inconsistancy/fundemental flaw in the product-which nefi translates into "unhappiness" thus I get kinda bummed out.
    Are you saying you feel criticized?

    I'm really interested in what you're saying here, I just don't know that I completely understand.

  10. #830
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Happy Puppy View Post
    Ok, so I poised Question of intjs and testing the other day. Cause it sort of "feels" that way.

    I think I figured this out.

    Been on a trip to san fran and spent yesterday working with an intj engineer at a another company.

    55 years or so, sweet threads of Fi, moderate to mild Te in normal convo.

    Then he looks at my instrument (not that you dirty minded entps, the actual instrument I sell). I have known this guy for about three years professionally.

    When he looks at my "box" (this is fun), my stomach drops and I get kinda bummed out.

    Why?

    Becasue we will start down the NiTe path. I enjoy it if it is a path of troublshooting or mutual sharing.

    Alas, when looks at my box, he is another path-discovery and assesment. He knows there are flaws.

    Step by step, question by question he finds them. Always.

    Like an autopsy of my equipment.

    With an entp, I can sparkle and dazzle-distract or just confuse an intp-by random insanity.

    With intjs on a "path", it is much harder to derail-i think they can "feel" what they don't know and dig until they find the pivot point-the crux, the flaw.
    This is exactly right. It feels like this from the INTJ perspective. Without much Fe on our part, you can only persuade us with legitimate Te-style arguments. We can like you very much personally, and still evaluate on object in which you have invested much energy with dispassionate rigor?

    Why do we do this, even when we have a good strong Fi? Because the object is not you, in our eyes.

    There is a very strong parallel with SS's half-burrito story.

    What is hard is that I seek to make my customers happy, due to a drive for emo affirmation and Fi mirrored happiness.

    Problematically the end of the NiTe path typically ends up as a fundemental flaw-somthing I cannot resolve. Thus I failed in my nefi mandate of pleasing the other.

    I can't remedy the intellectual inconsistancy/fundemental flaw in the product-which nefi translates into "unhappiness" thus I get kinda bummed out.
    I totally understand this. It's actually one of the drawbacks of being a salesperson for a technical product, as opposed to a feel-good-happy product. (I in no way intend to demean feel-good-happy products ... I like to feel-good-happy, too.)


    Intjs-is it enough to get to the end of the path and understand the truth?

    Do you expect others to resolve?

    Would you ideally create your own resolution?

    This same dynamic might bubble up occasionally as a pattern in the intj/enfp relationship. I dunno though....
    I'm not sure quite what you're getting at with these questions. I very much appreciate your observations that led to them. Very perceptive.

    Really, all it is, HP, is that our NiTe evaluates a technical thingie functionally. That's it. No more, no less. We need to know what it does, how it works, how it doesn't work. Often, when we're done, if it's something we use or need to use, we know how it works better than the designers, better than the manual writers, better than technical support. We're like that.

    That said, the other thing we're evaluating for is whether its functionality is useful to us. It could be a perfectly good Salad Shooter (tm), but if we don't have a salad, or we don't wish to shoot a salad, then we don't need it.

    Alternatively, it could have a dozen "flaws", all of which we pinpoint, and when all is said and done, we still want the product, because it does more than your competition's product, or does something we need that nothing else does.

    And there isn't one talking point you can use to persuade us otherwise. Your best bet is to be totally honest: we respect that, and will keep doing business with you when you're honest. We don't trust easily, but we really want to trust you. You create a very strong emotional bond (of respect) when you're upfront and honest with an INTJ. You might not make this sale, but we'll listen to your next sales pitch for another product, rather than send you away.

    I think this dynamic does come up in ENFP/INTJ relationships. I think SS's burrito story covered a lot of it.

    And I think it comes up in that you ENFPs seem to admire how we INTJs just block off our feelings and analyze, wishing you could do that so easily. And it comes up in that INTJs just love how you ENFPs emote and care and don't seem to be hurt by it (or at least not for long), and we admire that resiliency.

    But when INTJ and ENFP finally get to know each other for real, each learns the truth. The INTJ learns that the ENFP's emotions are just as fragile as his own, and the ENFP learns that the INTJ's ability to fend off emotions with logic is not so robust as it first appears.

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