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  1. #791
    Courage is immortality Valiant's Avatar
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    Here's your bow, Qre:us. May I have the stern?


    Mightier than the tread of marching armies is the power of an idea whose time has come

  2. #792
    Courage is immortality Valiant's Avatar
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    ANYWAY.


    This whole ENTP debacle made me think of the cackling Harley Davidson people in South Park.

    [YOUTUBE="q8eYzMHGjrE"]lol[/YOUTUBE]

    Mightier than the tread of marching armies is the power of an idea whose time has come

  3. #793
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    Kindly refrain from taking quotes out of context and for that matter commenting if you cannot figure out how to understand my words without twisting them.
    Did I inaccurately quote anything?

    All of those quotes, if read in proper context are in fact meant either as clarifications, in the hopes of sharing and demystifying how this process works for me, or genuine questions as to why it is so hard to have this discussion, or what road block causes you to have trouble grasping something that you asked about, aka Fi. Something I've tried to explain (the way it works for me), genuinly so, and stupidly so, for the gazillionth time.
    They're your words.

    As for the 'gift', judgemental comments from people who have no clue as to who I am and who have demonstrated that misunderstanding, are of no use to me.
    Judgmental, you mean using terms like "hypocrite"?

    Does a person ever get to know who you are if they don't forthrightly agree with everything you say?

    Maybe I'm at fault as I suck at debating and refining my words in a second language that I speak. This is your turf, afterall, since you won't meet me on mine.
    It's usually called the English language. It's not exactly Ti speak either.

    And I'm willing to try my best. But when I tell you that you misunderstand me, take my word for it.
    Why should I do that, when it seems like you're talking out of both sides of your mouth?

    I have no problem with people who've demonstrated a clear understanding of who I am, and why I do things, telling me that this is a part of me they do not agree with. There are such people on this forum, just as there are plenty who've appreciated my gentle emotional shoulder tapping, and I appreciate them equally as I know they took the time and effort to actually understand it without judgement, making sure they grasped it properly before coming to the conclusion that it was something they wanted to take part in or not. I am who I am, and I don't expect you to like what I do or who I am all the time. But at least, before you judge, *know* me and show me that you do. After that, your feedback is much appreciated.
    Here's where we come to the impasse - what would you do in return? Why should I expose myself to this potential deep harm just so I can tell you not to do it? Why can't you in return understand that when I criticize actions that potentially arise from Fi, that in no way am I casting any judgment about you as a person? If I don't know you, like you say, isn't it absurd to think that I even could cast any sort of meaningful judgment about you as a person?

    As for your comment that at least you fess up that your games can harm others, I never denied this wasn't dangerous and should be done with care. On the contrary in fact, I commented on these 'games' and Fi for that matter needing a steady hand, that it was the wielder that made it evil or good. Someone who isn't skilled at this can easily cause harm without intending to do so, as can a skilled wielder hell-bent on doing 'evil. But as most Fi-users have the 'harm none' clause in their value-set, it's ime usually inexperience that causes the pain, unintentionally. And I personally have accidentily harmed people in the past, but I also make amends for that and learn from that. As I explained to Puppy on her wall already, I learn to do this 'manipulation' consciously, so I have a better control over it, so I can prevent damage from happening as I'm aware of what I'm doing, instead of noticing it too late. It comes natural to me, so it's not likely that I can stop doing it alltogether. I might as well get a handle on it and keep from harming others.
    I appreciate that. However, can you see why it comes across as a non-admission of principle? Do you see how you're invalidating my opinion through your choice of words? You're essentially telling me "yes, it might be dangerous, but no one (especially not me) really does it that way, and your advice that I use it more judiciously was completely stupid and I'm not going to listen to you, so go away and bother me no more". That's how that translates into TiFe speech.

    Ti does not like having its initial principles invalidated, just as much as Fi doesn't like having its core values contradicted. If you answer in a way that invalidates those initial principles, be prepared to prove your position, or Fe's going to box you into a social category that isn't very pleasant. If you get to say "this is what's going to happen because of Fi", then I'm telling you right now, this will happen because of Ti. Both parties, and yes, that means you too, need to swallow their pride to prevent these sorts of blow-ups in the future.

    I'd also advise you to look at yourself before you go pointing out the inaptitude and incompetence of others in their games, coz I have to wonder how aware you are of your own 'games' causing harm. But hey...I don't know you that well, so I'll refrain from judging for now
    I knew exactly what that would have done, and the harm it would cause. I told Qr:eus a good 18 hours before that post that I already had your words boxed into a corner and was ready to make you look like a complete hypocrite, but I wasn't going to do it because it would serve no real purpose, and probably upset you. Then you went ahead and called us hypocrites.

    You mess with the bull, prepare for the horns. Calling a Ti user a hypocrite is a very grave insult, because it attacks our internal logical patterns. You're saying you don't understand us, but beyond that, you don't want to understand us. You're in effect being very judgmental.

    Here's the thing - that's not changing any time soon. I'm not going to be "the bigger man" in that circumstance and just walk away, because I'd think less of myself to let that sort of thing slide. So my advice to you is this - if you call any xxTP a hypocrite, prepare to get everything you said thrown back at you in as many convoluted fashions as possible (I only transposed a single thing you said, and left the context around most of the rest - that was being nice) to make sure everyone else sees you as the true hypocrite. No, I'm not going to be nice and take it easy on you, because you've already been less than nice and gone straight for the sucker punch. You know it's the sucker punch now, so you can't claim ignorance in the future, either.

    I'm done with this thread and this topic.
    Apologies if you were genuinely harmed by anything I said. However, I won't apologize for saying it.

  4. #794
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    What gave you that idea?

    79 pages = thread WIN

    *takes a bow for her part in the act*
    dunno..
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
    — C.G. Jung

    Read

  5. #795
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Edit: onemoretime is unbanned from the thread
    Last edited by Ivy; 02-20-2010 at 02:51 PM.
    The one who buggers a fire burns his penis
    -anonymous graffiti in the basilica at Pompeii

  6. #796
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    It's over?

  7. #797
    Senior Member the state i am in's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elaur View Post
    Manipulating someone to make them want you/rely on you is a way for an ENFP to make the relationship go the way they want to. It's scary to actually be in a relationship and let go of manipulation. What if you can't actually get someone without manipulation??!?!

    To have healthy relationships an ENFP has to move past manipulation and let a relationship develop without it. It's difficult.
    what are you, an estp? an enfj? any other negative stereotypes? i assume i'm being tongue-in-cheek, yet realizing that this is fucked up. also, i might do this too. how else would i not consistently be in the wrong, or get what i want?

    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Let me clarify a couple of things.

    "Fe user" and "Fi user" are misnomers. If you're "strong F", you use both, though you'll tend to lean on one more than the other. If you're expressing an emotion that's arising from inside of you, that's Fi, whether or not you're an "Fi user". Even xxTJs and xxTPs cry.
    damn you Fi users! you'll be the death of Ti precision! i disagree completely, and if the functions were a continuum, patterns would be meaningless and completely illusory.the development model wouldn't make sense. i just don't see this at all. i don't have Fi. i still feel shit, which means the Fe definitions used are incorrect. but nothing more. but it comes from outside of me.

    the Fi response to Ti sounds like, well, it seems reasonable to my own experience to say that i don't see the function divisions clearly, so they probably aren't.

  8. #798
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the state i am in View Post
    damn you Fi users! you'll be the death of Ti precision! i disagree completely, and if the functions were a continuum, patterns would be meaningless and completely illusory.the development model wouldn't make sense. i just don't see this at all. i don't have Fi. i still feel shit, which means the Fe definitions used are incorrect. but nothing more. but it comes from outside of me.

    the Fi response to Ti sounds like, well, it seems reasonable to my own experience to say that i don't see the function divisions clearly, so they probably aren't.
    Hahahahah!

    I understand how you feel. I suspect, however, it isn't my Fi regarding them as fuzzy, it's my Te.

    Yes, personally, I see the functions as rather fuzzy ... if they were truly that precise, it would be easy to type people. Yet for some people, it takes a long while to test and soul search and eventually discover their own type, never mind figure out another's type.

    I use MBTI at an empirical level (Te, see?), generally making guesses and testing those guesses. There is a lot of overlap between types, and not simply based on functions.

    The reason I suggest that "strong F" often uses both Fe and Fi is my own experience, where I use both Te and Ti to evaluate things, due to my background. I need both a strong grasp of the theoretical (Ti) and the empirical/experimental (Te). I lean towards the latter, preferring utility to consistency. I would guess that one who chooses to judge both with Fe and Fi might have a similar attitude: a need to understand oneself and one's own emotions clearly, and a need to understand others and their emotions clearly. One acts based on both understandings, but with a bias towards one or the other.

    I'm not saying that all people are like this. There are certainly INTJs with hardly any grasp of Ti at all, and rely more on Te/Fi, for example. And with my own understanding of Ti, I still have to do a mildly painful shift of perspective to fully grok the perspectives of certain INTP friends, and they similarly have to adjust to understand mine.

    I would very much like to hear your personal perspective of what Fe feels like to you, and your perspective on the other three judging functions.

  9. #799
    Was E.laur Laurie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the state i am in View Post
    what are you, an estp? an enfj? any other negative stereotypes? i assume i'm being tongue-in-cheek, yet realizing that this is fucked up. also, i might do this too. how else would i not consistently be in the wrong, or get what i want?
    Sorry, what? I was just stating something that I think can be a problem for ENFP. Everyone has potential downfalls. What makes it a big deal to admit to potential problems with your type?

  10. #800
    Courage is immortality Valiant's Avatar
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    Alright, I called the United nations and they've agreed to send a peacekeeping force.
    Can't you people just get back to the subject anytime soon?

    Mightier than the tread of marching armies is the power of an idea whose time has come

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