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  1. #71
    Senior Member evilrobot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the state i am in View Post
    enps can be destructive night-terrors...
    on the other hand, enps are the most capable of empathizing with me as i really am. as a perfect blend of what i really am and what i really could be, ought to be, might be, etc.

    ENFPs, especially if they’re also 4s, can crack your emotional codes better than any other type. Almost right off the bat, you feel like you can tell them anything, all your secrets you’ve never told anyone else. It’s not something ENFPs even have to think about, it comes naturally, effortlessly; look what Vesper (a clear cut ENFP) did to James Bond (a hardcase ISTP) in Casino Royale; he was totally in her power by the end of that movie.

    INTJs are especially vulnerable because ENFPs connect with and activate the INTJ’s tertiary Fi, which is like their Achilles heel; before he knows it, the INTJ "mastermind" is in her thrall. INTJs are vulnerable in the emotional realm; even for more emotionally aware 5w4 INTJs, it’s still alien terrain. A mysterious and fascinating moonlit world to explore from the armchair, to be sure. But it unravels them, causing them to lose their bearings, when they’re forced to experience it firsthand with someone who reigns supreme there.

    Put simply, INTJs are out of their depth with ENFPs.
    X___________________________________

    If things are not what they seem, and we are forever reminded that this is the case—then it must also be observed that enough of us ignore this truth to keep the world from collapsing. –Thomas Ligotti, The Mystics of Muelenberg

  2. #72
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    I'm afraid we might all complain all day about how opposite ENFPs and INTJs are. But ultimately there is a lot of shared ground; its just wired up to see the world in the opposite light thanks to flipped intuition.

    Mutual pedagogues will always attract.

  3. #73
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by evilrobot View Post
    ENFPs, especially if they’re also 4s, can crack your emotional codes better than any other type. Almost right off the bat, you feel like you can tell them anything, all your secrets you’ve never told anyone else. It’s not something ENFPs even have to think about, it comes naturally; look what Vesper (a clear cut ENFP) did to James Bond (a hardcase ISTP) in Casino Royale; he was totally in her power by the end of that movie.

    INTJs are most vulnerable because ENFPs connect with and activate the INTJ’s tertiary Fi, which is like their Achilles heel, and before he knows it, the INTJ is in her thrall. So much for being a “mastermind”. INTJs are too vulnerable in the emotional realm; even for more emotionally aware and expressive 5w4s, it’s still alien terrain, a place that fascinates them from the armchair but unravels them, causing them to lose their bearings, when they’re forced to experience it firsthand with someone who's right at home there.

    Put simply, INTJs are out of their depth with ENFPs.
    I agree, but I think it's half the story. If you go totally over to their side, F and nothing but the F, then you're screwed, or in a position to be screwed when they get bored or frightened or careless. But... presumably this is part of the maturation... like what State was saying a post or two back... an opportunity to expand who you are. Being led into a place where you have to abandon your T, that's bad. Real bad. But being able to bring your T to bear on what your F is up to...


    Yes, fraught with peril, it is. Fraught. With Peril.


    Warm and fuzzy is... memorable... and fleeting. It's value rises and falls.
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

    Boy meets Grr

  4. #74
    Senior Member evilrobot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    I agree, but I think it's half the story. If you go totally over to their side, F and nothing but the F, then you're screwed, or in a position to be screwed when they get bored or frightened or careless. But... presumably this is part of the maturation... like what State was saying a post or two back... an opportunity to expand who you are. Being led into a place where you have to abandon your T, that's bad. Real bad. But being able to bring your T to bear on what your F is up to...


    Yes, fraught with peril, it is. Fraught. With Peril.


    Warm and fuzzy is... memorable... and fleeting. It's value rises and falls.

    Okay, let me rephrase it. The ENFP match (at least from the male INTJ perspective) has the greatest potential for the INTJ, but is also the greatest risk.
    X___________________________________

    If things are not what they seem, and we are forever reminded that this is the case—then it must also be observed that enough of us ignore this truth to keep the world from collapsing. –Thomas Ligotti, The Mystics of Muelenberg

  5. #75
    RETIRED CzeCze's Avatar
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    I went on a date with an INTJ (one date) and there is another INTJ amongst our group of friends. I would say my ISTJ and INFJ and ESFP friends are much harsher about the INTJ (they thinks she is awkward, rude, etc.) but I don't have any problems with her and have been invited to her house a couple times. At my last corporate job, an INTX male was the only person I could stand working with on the research team (his ENTP boss - we did *not* see eye to eye)

    How old are you? Maybe most of the folks you're meeting, and including yourself, are growing into all your functions and that's why you're feeling friction.

    In general, I have no problems with INTJs. The only type I would say I tend to dislike or butt heads with consistently irl are ENTPs, but even with that the cross section has been sooooooooo tiny I couldn't say.
    “If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.” ― Oscar Wilde

    "I'm outtie 5000" ― Romulux

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  6. #76
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post

    Yes, fraught with peril, it is. Fraught. With Peril.


    Warm and fuzzy is... memorable... and fleeting. It's value rises and falls.
    Which is why you complement it with mutual Te commitment and intellectual interaction. Dont be a quitter! ENFPs are flighty and absent minded, but you just need to bluntly remind them you are there and we will hold onto you as our foundation and drag you out into the world-just a bit.

    It will only hurt a little.

  7. #77
    Member Waffle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CzeCze View Post
    I went on a date with an INTJ (one date) and there is another INTJ amongst our group of friends. I would say my ISTJ and INFJ and ESFP friends are much harsher about the INTJ (they thinks she is awkward, rude, etc.) but I don't have any problems with her and have been invited to her house a couple times. At my last corporate job, an INTX male was the only person I could stand working with on the research team (his ENTP boss - we did *not* see eye to eye)

    How old are you? Maybe most of the folks you're meeting, and including yourself, are growing into all your functions and that's why you're feeling friction.

    In general, I have no problems with INTJs. The only type I would say I tend to dislike or butt heads with consistently irl are ENTPs, but even with that the cross section has been sooooooooo tiny I couldn't say.
    I see everyone's possible reasons. It's probably the INTJs I've met have either been immature in their own ways or decided off the bat not to like me. Either way, meh.
    ENTPs... Well, my mother. We drive each other nuts, and often don't work well at all together. Same with my ENTP friend and I. They're very very stuck on their principles, and have almost no room for compromise.
    It has helped me grow up faster though, and learn that I will *almost* never get my way.
    I do however admire the ENTP's principole to take them as they are or hit the highway. i do way more bending than I should.
    I will admit that the INTJ can hold intellectual conversations with a lot more focus and actual interest about the subject.

  8. #78
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Happy Puppy View Post
    Which is why you complement it with mutual Te commitment and intellectual interaction. Dont be a quitter! ENFPs are flighty and absent minded, but you just need to bluntly remind them you are there and we will hold onto you as our foundation and drag you out into the world-just a bit.

    It will only hurt a little.
    And the other side of the coin... well, there is another side of the coin, but I've been not finding ways to express it for two days now. Something about INTJs being hypersensitive to hints and clues of rejection and childishly (childlikely?) willing to pick up their armor and go home, calling the whole thing off. That tertiary temptation trick of "This will mar my soul!" tends to drive up the introverted feeling stakes.

    "Like a Band-Aid, right off! *zzzzzzitch*"

    It only hurts the once.




    And in other news, Vesper Lynd was ENFJ. You can tell by the way irony requires her to sabotage a mission when she would have anyway. And the eye makeup. "Look into my pained eyes and see the yearning depths of your soul."
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

    Boy meets Grr

  9. #79
    Senior Member boondocked's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by evilrobot View Post
    ENFPs, especially if they’re also 4s, can crack your emotional codes better than any other type. Almost right off the bat, you feel like you can tell them anything, all your secrets you’ve never told anyone else. It’s not something ENFPs even have to think about, it comes naturally, effortlessly.
    This. Sometimes I feel like a repository for secrets. I've got secrets from people I've known for minutes, secrets from people who swore they'd never tell a living soul, secrets from both sides of a fight I was caught between...etc. If I had a cupcake for every person who's given me a sheepish smile and said "I have no idea why I'm telling you this, but..." I'd be a very happy 300 lb. woman.

    Also, I'd love to know why you, evilrobot, consider Vesper an ENFP. Very interesting typing! I'd love to call her one of our own...

    To answer the OP, I bring my 5 years experience dating an INTJ. We didn't work out because I simply needed to date around some more and experience adult life without him. Stand on my own two feet or something.

    Up until that point, we worked out marvelously well. If I had only met him later in life, after I'd ironed out all my restlessness...

    What worked:

    -Unlike the INTJ you mention (the rude git!), this INTJ was unfailingly polite and thoughtful. This was less a personality trait, and more an aspect of his good character. People from his family, from his hometown, from his soccer team were always coming up to me to tell me what a great guy he was. Loved this.

    -The connection was instant and superb. The night we met (Valentines Day), I had two dates set up, which scared him off initially, but we soon got together for dinner and talked all night. And talked all night the next night. We slept the night after that, but talked all night for the next two. Like I said, instant connection. I loved his brilliant, idiosyncratic brain, the fascinating bends and turns of it. I loved how precise it was, whereas my brain is so wishy washy and impressionistic. And he made me laugh harder than anyone ever had. He was just so bright, so sharp. He liked my abstractions and theories and how I expressed myself, from the way I phrased things to my over-emotive facial expressions :rolli: We both just found the whole thing unbelievably exciting

    -We were great partners. For instance, I'm a better writer than he, so I wrote his law school entrance essay. He's a MUCH better organizer and go-getter than me, so he helped me in the job search. We acted as each other's sounding board perpetually. He understood all the important things, without me having to explain. If there was something wrong with what I was working on, he'd instantly mention it and he'd almost always be right.

    -His passion for self-improvement rubbed off on me. That and a huuuuge respect for music (the guy was in a band).

    -When I moved to Thailand, he was the most devoted boyfriend imaginable, calling and mailing birthday/Christmas gifts. The greatest thing about an INTJ in love is that he's decided on you. He wouldn't love you if he hadn't decided that you're the one he wants. Once that decision is made, it's damn near irrevocable.

    -He was so motivated. I mean, gawd, the FORCE of that man's willpower.

    What Didn't Work

    -Sometimes, even as a high N, you just want some S flavor in your life. You get tired of living on cloud. You want someone with more of a physical presence. I don't know. Someone good with their hands.

    -I got too much of my own way, and became bratty. Maybe that's not ENFP/INTJ-related? My INTJ wanted me to be in every respect happy and free from any rules that he had any power over. Wasn't the best thing for us.

    -When he'd get into his work-horse mode, NOTHING could snap him out of it. I mean, during such times I could have covered myself in whipped cream and he would just have told me to stop playing with my food. He was infuriating cold when he was hot on some brain trail.

    Verdict

    Can TOTALLY work. It's a fascinating combo.

  10. #80
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    ^ I wonder if this is not the merciless inferior.

    The total connection comes when both partners are up-ended. They've worked their way down through the functions, the IXTJ engaging Fi, the EXFP engaging Te, and then what? The inferior. If it were INTJ, he'd activate Se; but if it were ISTJ, he'd activate Ne, and speak directly to the ENFP's dominant function, and the connection is complete... for when the ISTJ takes the role of the Ne user, the ENFP can take the role of the Si user. The whole person is engaged. The meaning (found in Ne) of all that has been done (found in Si) is shared.

    Whereas the INTJ would say, let's go dancing.
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

    Boy meets Grr

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