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  1. #781
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Yes, I am. Note the common story of the child who falls and hurts himself outside. Bravely and quietly gets up, walks inside, and the moment he sees Mommy, starts crying.

    In this case, he probably doesn't realize he's being manipulative, but it's the rudimentary beginning of understanding communication. Crying "doesn't work" if Mommy isn't there.

    It's only when one knows better that it becomes evil and manipulative.

    That said, I -am- INTJ, and I don't personally understand Fe that well. I'm going by definitions, that crying to manipulate others is necessarily extroverted feeling, even if an INTJ does it.
    A type's given functions explains their cognitive process. It's not as simple as social manipulation = always the work of Fe.

    One has to look at the cognitive process at work. What is its thought process, what is its motivation?

    What is the function of this social manipulation (the cognitive process by which they arrived at social manipulation)? In that we'll understand what function(s) is/are at work.

    If we go by what I said earlier of Fe and Fi, the former being about fairness, and the latter being about authenticity....

    ...then, using the crying example of my ESFP ex-roomie, if it was Fe-manipulation, it would mean that her aim was to bias fairness towards her favour. She had no acknowledged of fair, unfair; that wasn't her motivation. It was about validation of self. She was feeling like her self was infringed upon, being oppressed (by me), attacked, and she wanted some kind of validation that she mattered, her feelings mattered (she, as an individual, was valued). Because my attack was making her feel devalued. She was wanting someone to believe in her. My other roommates would validate such motivations spurred by her Fi.

    She didn't go the route of expressing why one should believe in her, value her, no, she took that feeling spurred by Fi feeling infringed upon, and ran with it. And, what better way then to utilize Te, which, in her case, says (FiTe), hey, the fastest and most effective way to gain emotional leverage over others, so I can be validated, feel valued, is to bring on the waterworks, force it on the table. And, thus the crocodile tears ensued.

    She had the emotional realm (F) covered, by Fi (more natural a function for her), thus she didn't need Fe to reach any conclusion. She wanted to, if I may borrow this phrase from Amar earlier in this thread, sync up her projected emotional state with my other roommates, which would validate her being. "Pain" for pain. I show "pain", they will feel pain (for me). And, Te helped it be projected externally. There was no need for Fe to come into play. Fi+Te would get the job done much faster, and more readily available to her.

    In the end, the same conclusion is reached, social manipulation. Which Fe can reach too (all by its own). A lot of same conclusion (in terms of manifested behaviour, e.g., social manipulation) is reached by all types, but it doesn't mean, according to function theory, that it's all the same function, every time, that's manifesting said behaviour. One has to dig deeper - into the cognitive process - to unravel the functions at play.

    Hence, why I called this example, Fi manipulation (not being authentic in her pain, yet wanting acknowledgement of its "authenticity"). Fi was the judgement making function at play. It was manifested (externalized efficiently) with the help of Te.

  2. #782
    `~~Philosoflying~~` SillySapienne's Avatar
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    I'm with my INTJ love, right now.

    And it is simply sublime.

    We get each other.

    He makes me happy, and I him.



    I'm his baby, but he's my baby, too!!!









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    'Cause you can't handle me...

    "A lie is a lie even if everyone believes it. The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it." - David Stevens

    "That that is, is. That that is not, is not. Is that it? It is."

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  3. #783
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    ...then, using the crying example of my ESFP ex-roomie, if it was Fe-manipulation, it would mean that her aim was to bias fairness towards her favour. She had no acknowledged of fair, unfair; that wasn't her motivation. It was about validation of self. She was feeling like her self was infringed upon, being oppressed (by me), attacked, and she wanted some kind of validation that she mattered, her feelings mattered (she, as an individual, was valued). Because my attack was making her feel devalued. She was wanting someone to believe in her. My other roommates would validate such motivations spurred by her Fi.

    She didn't go the route of expressing why one should believe in her, value her, no, she took that feeling spurred by Fi feeling infringed upon, and ran with it. And, what better way then to utilize Te, which, in her case, says (FiTe), hey, the fastest and most effective way to gain emotional leverage over others, so I can be validated, feel valued, is to bring on the waterworks, force it on the table. And, thus the crocodile tears ensued.

    She had the emotional realm (F) covered, by Fi (more natural a function for her), thus she didn't need Fe to reach any conclusion. She wanted to, if I may borrow this phrase from Amar earlier in this thread, sync up her projected emotional state with my other roommates, which would validate her being. "Pain" for pain. I show "pain", they will feel pain (for me). And, Te helped it be projected externally. There was no need for Fe to come into play. Fi+Te would get the job done much faster, and more readily available to her.

    In the end, the same conclusion is reached, social manipulation. Which Fe can reach too (all by its own). A lot of same conclusion is reached in terms of manifested behaviour, but it doesn't mean, according to function theory, that it's all the same function, every time, that's manifesting said behaviour. One has to dig deeper - into the cognitive process - to unravel the functions at play.


    Hence, why I called this example, Fi manipulation (not being authentic in her pain, yet wanting acknowledgement of its authenticity). Fi was the judgement making function at play. It was manifested (externalized) with the help of Te.
    But where does the sense that it's okay to manipulate that way come from? Busted Ni probably, changing perspectives to make it right--the inner INTJ saying "Whatever, man, it worked!"

    ENFPs have the Si...
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

    Boy meets Grr

  4. #784
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    I feel like I have no where to go anymore.. I've been holding this dark, deep secret in my chest. and.. I feel like. Im such an emotional rapist.. Like I use my Fi to MANipulate, if you will..
    Kantgirl: Just say "I'm feminine and I'll punch anyone who says otherwise!"
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  5. #785
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    I feel like I have no where to go anymore.. I've been holding this dark, deep secret in my chest. and.. I feel like. Im such an emotional rapist.. Like I use my Fi to MANipulate, if you will..
    You aweful aweful woman!

  6. #786
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    In the end, the same conclusion is reached, social manipulation. Which Fe can reach too (all by its own). A lot of same conclusion (in terms of manifested behaviour, e.g., social manipulation) is reached by all types, but it doesn't mean, according to function theory, that it's all the same function, every time, that's manifesting said behaviour. One has to dig deeper - into the cognitive process - to unravel the functions at play.
    Frankly, I think this is taking MBTI and cognitive processes far beyond the role of utility into the realm of unfalsifiable speculation.

    Personally, I buy the concept of the ESFP wanting "validation" as a primary motivation, and wanting to fight back against feeling oppressed, but that's as far as I go.

    I find your speculation that she used Te to gain emotional leverage to be particularly implausible. The only reason to invoke Te is because one believes that Fe is somehow excluded, and I don't believe that is true. In particular, I believe much of the function ordering to be a linear simplification of a much more complex set of priorities.

    Yes, my Fe explanation is just as unfalsifiable as your FiTe explanation.

    I use MBTI and Jungian functions as general guidelines and a 1st-order approach. It lets me sort through a limited set of possible scenarios for communication purposes. After that, it loses all utility, and has no predictive power. E.g., yes, there is a tendency for ENFPs and INTJs to like each other, but that doesn't mean the love of an ENFP's life will turn out to be INTJ. Rather, it works the other way around: if the love of your life is an INTJ, here are the problems to look out for, and some possible solutions. Beyond this, it just doesn't matter what functions one is "really using." No useful observations can be made, and no useful conclusions can be drawn.

  7. #787
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    Default The games we play with Type theory....

    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Frankly, I think this is taking MBTI and cognitive processes far beyond the role of utility into the realm of unfalsifiable speculation.

    Personally, I buy the concept of the ESFP wanting "validation" as a primary motivation, and wanting to fight back against feeling oppressed, but that's as far as I go.

    I find your speculation that she used Te to gain emotional leverage to be particularly implausible. The only reason to invoke Te is because one believes that Fe is somehow excluded, and I don't believe that is true. In particular, I believe much of the function ordering to be a linear simplification of a much more complex set of priorities.

    Yes, my Fe explanation is just as unfalsifiable as your FiTe explanation.
    Some basic assumptions from both of our ends. I made, you implicitly agreed to, when we engaged in this exercise.

    - She is ESFP (she never took the test, it's my best guess for her)
    - I have no way of knowing her function order, as an individual case (she may very well have Fe).
    - You not challenging her type as stated by me, and applying certain functions to her, through my given limited information of her, means you have engaged in this mental exercise with me.

    Thus, I'm going to work with the framework of an archetypical ESFP.

    Se, Fi, Te, Ni.

    Neither you, nor I can speculate anything beyond that.

    Given these assumptions, and that we both made sound arguments for each of our cases, mine being FiTe, yours being Fe...the only way to break this tie is by going back to the assumption that we can only know of her behaviour if we treat her as an archtypical ESFP.

    As such, my FiTe is more plausible than your Fe, because of the bolded, as we are only limited to treating this example as an archtypical ESFP.

    Otherwise, this game can go in any direction each of us pleases, without any kind of systematic thought. And, we'd all be "right".

    Heck, I could rationalize a case for Si or Ne being the culprit.

    I use MBTI and Jungian functions as general guidelines and a 1st-order approach. It lets me sort through a limited set of possible scenarios for communication purposes. After that, it loses all utility, and has no predictive power. E.g., yes, there is a tendency for ENFPs and INTJs to like each other, but that doesn't mean the love of an ENFP's life will turn out to be INTJ. Rather, it works the other way around: if the love of your life is an INTJ, here are the problems to look out for, and some possible solutions. Beyond this, it just doesn't matter what functions one is "really using." No useful observations can be made, and no useful conclusions can be drawn.
    Cool. I feel the same about the bolded. Heck, even when people start attributing the failure of a relationship to must be cuz of the functional mismatch, I'm a little skeptical, beyond all the other things that goes to make a relationship dynamic work. E.g., An ESTP and an INFJ can be stellar together, if they have common views about their principles, outlook on life, beyond what their functional matchup predicts. Individual supercedes type. The variety and dissent within ENFPs on this forum (even this thread), about manifestations of Fi, backs up this point.

    Personally, I have issues attributing functions to behaviours myself, in any practical sense (I've brought this issue up in the past), and other issues with MBTI, which I won't get into here.

    But, for all intent and purpose, neither you, nor I, nor any of us in this thread, can apply with any accuracy, behaviours to be the sole domain of certain functions. All we can do is, given certain assumptions, make a case for why it is, or is not, a valid argument. Certain assumptions being, the ENFPs in this thread, are always using Fi for the behaviours we attribute to Fi. It could very well be a combination of other functions. Even...Fe.

    As you said, it's all unfalsifiable speculation - not just this exercise of my ex-roomie ESFP, but, everything we do with type theory on this forum. As none of us are ever a clean case of an archetype, behaving 100% like the theory would predict.

    MBTI is not predictive, it certainly wasn't my assumption, nor did I think it was yours, when we engaged in this little analysis. We can only make a case for what is likely (to be happening) given what we know of type.

  8. #788
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    I don't get this response. It's like any time some suggestion is made, it's interpreted as though we want to imprison people for bothering us. I mean, have you noticed how much ENTPs don't like to be controlled, either?

    If we're commanding anything, it's that you simply be careful with what you do, and preferably don't do it towards members of the general public, and make for damn sure that you aren't inadvertently inflicting harm on someone you care about. A monstrous thing to say to someone, right?



    Your guess is as good as mine.



    Can't you take any comment that isn't waxing poetic about the glories of Fi without resorting to the fangs? At the very least, can't you accept that our opinions on the subject are just as valid as your own?



    Shouldn't have done this. I told Q I wasn't going to do this, but you couldn't leave well enough alone:

    Amazing how a paragraph can start and end with completely contradictory sentences, right?

    Oh, and for all the lovely prose about "acceptance" and "understanding":

    Oh really?

    The healthy among us at least admit our "games of wit" can have grave and serious consequences.

    Oh, and the best of all:

    Not seeking to convert. Only seeking to understand. Right.

    Q's not hypocritical at all. She's deadly accurate.



    A conversation is a free-flowing thing. It goes from one place to another. That you would suppress others' thoughts on things because you think we "think everything is about [us]" (blatant projection if I've ever seen it) suggests a disturbingly Orwellian facet to your character that I'd hope we would have all grown past at this point.



    Those who would reject a gift outright - do they even know the impact that it has on the giver?

    Did you not read the whole story about the goddamn burrito?



    We're not always right - but we always do have a nugget of validity hidden in everything we say. It's good to have feedback from others who see things differently, and are interested in growth.

    HP's my friend. She's also one of the wisest people I've met, both online and IRL. That's because of Fi - she "gets" the big picture on a metaphysical level that I'll probably never understand. However, she also understands that every one of her actions impact others, and that no matter what, even if she doesn't "feel" the Fe, hurting others hurts her as much as it does them. We've had several discussions where we've genuinely disagreed, but never these sorts of flamewars because both of us understood that the disagreement was where the opportunity for learning and growth lay.

    Thank you for this.
    Kindly refrain from taking quotes out of context and for that matter commenting if you cannot figure out how to understand my words without twisting them. All of those quotes, if read in proper context are in fact meant either as clarifications, in the hopes of sharing and demystifying how this process works for me, or genuine questions as to why it is so hard to have this discussion, or what road block causes you to have trouble grasping something that you asked about, aka Fi. Something I've tried to explain (the way it works for me), genuinly so, and stupidly so, for the gazillionth time.

    As for the 'gift', judgemental comments from people who have no clue as to who I am and who have demonstrated that misunderstanding, are of no use to me.

    Maybe I'm at fault as I suck at debating and refining my words in a second language that I speak. This is your turf, afterall, since you won't meet me on mine. And I'm willing to try my best. But when I tell you that you misunderstand me, take my word for it. I have no problem with people who've demonstrated a clear understanding of who I am, and why I do things, telling me that this is a part of me they do not agree with. There are such people on this forum, just as there are plenty who've appreciated my gentle emotional shoulder tapping, and I appreciate them equally as I know they took the time and effort to actually understand it without judgement, making sure they grasped it properly before coming to the conclusion that it was something they wanted to take part in or not. I am who I am, and I don't expect you to like what I do or who I am all the time. But at least, before you judge, *know* me and show me that you do. After that, your feedback is much appreciated.

    As for your comment that at least you fess up that your games can harm others, I never denied this wasn't dangerous and should be done with care. On the contrary in fact, I commented on these 'games' and Fi for that matter needing a steady hand, that it was the wielder that made it evil or good. Someone who isn't skilled at this can easily cause harm without intending to do so, as can a skilled wielder hell-bent on doing 'evil. But as most Fi-users have the 'harm none' clause in their value-set, it's ime usually inexperience that causes the pain, unintentionally. And I personally have accidentily harmed people in the past, but I also make amends for that and learn from that. As I explained to Puppy on her wall already, I learn to do this 'manipulation' consciously, so I have a better control over it, so I can prevent damage from happening as I'm aware of what I'm doing, instead of noticing it too late. It comes natural to me, so it's not likely that I can stop doing it alltogether. I might as well get a handle on it and keep from harming others.

    I'd also advise you to look at yourself before you go pointing out the inaptitude and incompetence of others in their games, coz I have to wonder how aware you are of your own 'games' causing harm. But hey...I don't know you that well, so I'll refrain from judging for now

    I'm done with this thread and this topic.
    ★ڿڰۣ✿ℒoѵℯ✿ڿڰۣ★





    "Harm none, do as ye will”

  9. #789
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lux Aeterna View Post
    I've read a great deal of posts, and I have yet to see one reasonable explanation why this dynamic is 'disastrous.'
    this whole topic is a disaster..
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
    — C.G. Jung

    Read

  10. #790
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    this whole topic is a disaster..
    What gave you that idea?

    79 pages = thread WIN

    *takes a bow for her part in the act*

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