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  1. #751
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    hey Biaaatches, check out my new sig. That was hysterical! Even though I have now redefined myself as an ENTF.

    INTJS

    Can we touch back on the testing please?

    What is pass/fail criteria? Do you even know? Does this require specific measurements or illustration of known flaws so that you can assess severity of impact upon the relationship long term?

    PS-I kinda dig Marm's Te myself. She's purty cool. sweet yet salty all at once.

  2. #752
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SillySapienne View Post
    Crying certainly DOES NOT make you right, it just means you're emotional, and need a release.

    I've cried when I've been wrong just as much as I've cried when I've been wronged.
    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    To me, that crying was interpreted as manipulation - for me to stop my "attack" on her, and to get coddled by the observers. (I knew her well enough to know some of her 'ways')
    W/r to the ongoing squabble about "Fi manipulation."

    I think I've narrowed the two lines above as the source of it. It might go further back, and other variations on a theme that I missed, but this is the first post as I traced back that actually specified what "Fi manipulation" is.

    It's when an Fi user cries.



    (And insert any sort of Fi expression of emotion instead of crying ... my reasoning, as follows, will still apply.)

    Actually, I think I understand where the negative vibes are coming from, because Fi and Fe have very different contexts. For Fi, emotions are what one feels, always. It isn't really about how others feel, it isn't about figuring out how to affect others with one's emotions, etc. The emotions are just there. For an Fi user, it can often be a torrent of emotions, very intense.

    In general, if an Fi user cries, it's genuine, not to garner sympathy from onlookers, for example.

    Here's the problem: for an Fe user, emotions are not only felt, they are used. If an expression of emotion gains someone a social advantage, Fe users spot that right away, and will typically believe that emotional expression was intended to gain that social advantage, especially if the Fe user believes that the particular social advantage is undeserved or unfair.

    In an Fi-to-Fi situation, it would play out differently: Fi #1 cries. Fi #2 probably has some idea why Fi #1 is crying, whether for a good reason or a stupid one. Either way, Fi #2 will comfort Fi #1. And, once that is done, if the crying was for a stupid reason, then Fi #2 will give Fi #1 a piece of his/her mind!

    But in the Fi-to-Fe case, the Fe is outraged that the Fi resorts to tears, especially if the tears are for a stupid reason. It's not fair, the Fe user thinks, especially when even the Fe user will want to feel sympathetic. In fact, it's that Fe feeling that one's own emotions are being manipulated that is causing the outrage. :steam:

    Interestingly, this may well explain part of the INTJ/ENFP dynamic, and hopefully bring this thread back on track. INTJs use Te, not Fe, and in fact have very little Fe.

    INTJs are effectively immune to what is being called "Fi manipulation." They'll generally take the ENFP's expression of emotions as genuine, no matter what. And the INTJ's Te will not be swayed into doing anything stupid: an INTJ is unlikely to give the ENFP whatever she wants just to make her stop crying ... partly because it will take him forever to figure out what it is she wants.

  3. #753
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    lol @ thread
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  4. #754
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    it got deeper though U,

    it ended up with some long standing arguments over using Fi on folks outside of the scope of a relationship and damage that may be caused.

    It also revolved around the idea of playing with concepts of pretend helplessness, which may be a natural Fi mechanism of flirting I'd guess.

    Total translation error-of significant interest-that went nuclear.

  5. #755
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    Quote Originally Posted by Happy Puppy View Post
    hey Biaaatches, check out my new sig. That was hysterical! Even though I have now redefined myself as an ENTF.

    INTJS

    Can we touch back on the testing please?

    What is pass/fail criteria? Do you even know? Does this require specific measurements or illustration of known flaws so that you can assess severity of impact upon the relationship long term?

    PS-I kinda dig Marm's Te myself. She's purty cool. sweet yet salty all at once.
    Happy Puppy!!! I R KETTLE KORN.

    I also sincerely agree that we need moar INTJs responding to this thread. Good call.

  6. #756
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Happy Puppy View Post
    hey Biaaatches, check out my new sig. That was hysterical! Even though I have now redefined myself as an ENTF.

    INTJS

    Can we touch back on the testing please?

    What is pass/fail criteria? Do you even know? Does this require specific measurements or illustration of known flaws so that you can assess severity of impact upon the relationship long term?
    Oh, the "testing."

    There's a secret about the tests.

    They aren't tests.

    It's that the INTJ doesn't have the balls to actually talk to you like a normal person. So instead of actually getting to know you, we instead attempt to objectively classify you as to what kind of person you are.

    The conclusions of all these "tests" are thought by the typical INTJ as being useful. They aren't. They're looking at the wrong thing.

    In essence, they're looking at you as an object. A "person-object" to be sure, but an object, nonetheless. After all, Te is objective. So they look at you in terms of the role you might fulfill in their life, and they compare their imagined role for you with you. It's almost cute, actually.

    Eventually, if the INTJ is lucky, he/she gets to know you as a person, but it has absolutely nothing to do with the "tests" except insofar as you were not unequivocally disqualified as a potential friend/partner/lover.

  7. #757
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleJim View Post
    Sigh, this is just so amateurish; why havent the admins stepped in to rescue this thread. I was quite enjoying having an ENFP-INTJ conversation thread. This is now just stupid; I'm boycotting this game with most of the other INTJs.

    And why exactly do we have ENTPs posting about how much they hate Fi when the threads topic is quite clearly "ENFP + INTJ = Disasterous Combo?". Go make another thread; either that or grow up and agree to disagree or you will all be getting some INTJ medicine.
    Remember that we rely partly on members to let us know when things go down the tubes. I don't read every thread on the forum and I don't think any of the other madmins do either. I haven't set foot in here until just now.

    Having said that, I am so not in a position to thoughtfully attend to the issues in here at the moment, there being almost 800 posts and all. So please let this serve as a general warning. More specific treatment to follow.
    The one who buggers a fire burns his penis
    -anonymous graffiti in the basilica at Pompeii

  8. #758
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    I'm not pissed off. You're just annoyed that I have Te. Everyone knows that ENFPs should just be cute little fluffy emotional rapists who run solely on Ne/Fi.
    No. I'm annoyed that you're being willfully obtuse. Happy Puppy is a very Te-oriented ENFP. She doesn't piss me off one bit - because she lets her Ne play with it and figure things out. You seem to just use it to protect yourself from the negative emotions that would come from admitting that you're wrong about things, you make mistakes, and yes, you've harmed people in your life without a single thought.

    I have a very deep sense of action being seperate from the person who committed it. You know nothing about my relationships - but apparently imagine that you do, not only from this comment, but from the previous post where you asserted that 95% of us are assuredly violating our dates!
    You're clearly demonstrating that here. Nice trap you tried to set there, btw - good to see the Ne coming back into play.

    You think you're saying something earth-shattering, when most ENFPs here (I think most of us are over 25...) are perfectly aware of how young ENFPs hurt others with flirtations and dalliances. I've long since dealt with it, and I'm sure that Amar has...seeing as that she's been in a LTR for ten years...and Happy Puppy seems to be in agreeance that Fi can be misused...and you're alraedy so sure of SS....who here exactly are you trying to confront with your magnificent message that young ENFPs sometimes lead people on? I really think most of us are past that. You just want us to "oooh" and "aaah" and say "oooh that never occurred to me." We have Fi, so of course we're introspective. This is a given.
    Yeah, but you haven't seemingly made it to the important part: "yeah, I've fucked up in the past. I've learned a lot from it, and I try every day to make sure I don't hurt another person in that very same way." Instead, when someone brings up another instance where you might be inadvertently harming someone, you build excuse upon excuse, blaming everyone and everything but the behavior itself. When it would be so much easier to say "wow, I never realized that this impacts others in this way. I'm glad I know this now, because I'd hate to do this to a person ever again."

    BTW, I've alienated myself from many people from Ti behaviors out of control. It hurts every day. You learn from every scar, no matter how painful.

    I'm not entirely sure why you thought SS would be impressed with your manhood, though. We were having a debate. I'm not sure how this even became a sexual conversation...
    Sigh... it was never about my masculinity. I happen to be male, so I referred to myself as a man. That's all.

    How am I emasculating you or asserting sexual superiority? You've really got some hang ups with women. The stuff you're saying is really weird and has nothing to do with anything.
    Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, exhibit Z.

    Yes, it is, seeing as that I already know that and it's actually one of my deep convictions.
    Great. Try exercising those convictions when you read someone else's thoughts.

    Your analogies are hyperbolic and ridiculous. You're being melodramatic. Language is no longer poetry when the meaning behind it is swamped in utter absurdity.
    Your comprehension is stilted and suppressed. You're being willfully obtuse. Language doesn't have to be poetry to still express thought.

  9. #759
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    IJ, I guess I'll show my bitters now: last time I tried to preempt the Fi-bashing I was told to see my way out. Plus this thread is pretty funny.

    I would ask what the hell ENTPs are doing in this thread though. Don't yall have some INFJs to trip and fumble over?
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
    Interpersonal Communication Theories and Concepts
    Social Penetration Theory 1
    Social Penetration Theory 2
    Social Penetration Theory 3

  10. #760
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    but this is the first post as I traced back that actually specified what "Fi manipulation" is.

    It's when an Fi user cries.

    What Happy Puppy said, and also, this post of mine (since I brought in this term, Fi manipulation, which later, another xNFP agreed with) outlines exactly what I was speaking of:

    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...2-post538.html

    Here's the problem: for an Fe user, emotions are not only felt, they are used. If an expression of emotion gains someone a social advantage, Fe users spot that right away, and will typically believe that emotional expression was intended to gain that social advantage, especially if the Fe user believes that the particular social advantage is undeserved or unfair.
    I can see this to be the case, but, that specific example with my ex-roomie and her crying, nah, I'm 100% sure she did it for show. She had even previously joked about her "skills" to be able to cry at the drop of a hat, to get "Daddy to do this, that," to get her bf to do this, that. That was just that particular girl's M.O.

    I wouldn't miscontrue all crying, unless it's appropriate by my standards to the situation, to be fake. I'm Ne-dom, I'm pretty good at looking at things from other perspectives. This, coupled with TiFe, also makes me have a pretty all right bullshit (creator/)detector too.

    But in the Fi-to-Fe case, the Fe is outraged that the Fi resorts to tears, especially if the tears are for a stupid reason. It's not fair, the Fe user thinks, especially when even the Fe user will want to feel sympathetic. In fact, it's that Fe feeling that one's own emotions are being manipulated that is causing the outrage. :steam:
    Does this mean I would feel sympathy for an Fe-user crying faster than I would for an Fi-user crying?

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