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  1. #671
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    Y'know, there's something really wrong in this discussion now. Some bizarre element has entered it. (I'm not referring to the ENTPs.) I'm referring to the hubris. The idea of having answers to what these manipulations may be without referring to the person as she or he happens to be.
    Yeah, def. not the stench of the ENTP.

    ENFPs don't do manipulation any more or less than another type. However, some individual ENFPs, when they want to utilize manipulation, evoke their Fi within, and it can turn into flouncing and pouting, emotional games, etc....

    ...however, as evidenced by my rep comments, other ENFPs find such behaviour in their comrades foreign to themselves, and a bit distateful.

    To each their own. Flavours, taste the rainbows, or some such relevant NF analogy.

    We can go too far in labelling behaviours, all and sundry, to the consequence of functional manifestations, rather than the functional manifestations being a consequence of the individual's own intention. I dunno, like self-esteem.

    On the other hand, that the ENFPs do wander around flouncing and pouting... they must know they are themselves up to something...

    And surely they are. There's some type dynamics thing at work here. I think everyone does play up their tertiary function in relation to other people. In the relief role, it does want attention. If it gets to be expressed in communication with someone else, one gets a buzz. So if the ENFPs are wandering around saying, look at me, lalalala, I'm manIPulating you. Check me out, it's a process I call <pause for Marylin Monroe voice> extraverted thinking... Mr President.</>

    The appropriate response is the flat level ORLY? stare, and then they tell you the truth.
    Appropriate response? Can range from anywhere between to ORLY?! to . Depends on the individuals involved and their personal intentions/desire, and dynamics between.

    Does anyone have a tissue? I seem to have spilled Fi on my lapel.
    Salty sweetness. My tongue screams more.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    Some people played along, however, suggesting some kind of one-up game existed--trying, it would seem, to explain themselves placing feeling above thinking as amounting to making other people succumb to their feeling. Or something like that. It looked odd.
    Or equating the consequences of thoughts to being the same as feelings.

    You play with thoughts, we play with feelings. Doesn't quite translate.

    One of these things is not like the other, one of these things just doesn't beloooong...

    I would have thought it would have been evident, how much more reverence my point was giving to feelings, as a personal identity of a person, than "neutral" thoughts.

    Yeah, they were describing it wrong, I think.
    Me, two.

    Perhaps that kind of behaviour does go on, but as a (hopefully) surface representation of a more real process: a push pull of rejecting and accepting lower level functions. The relative lack of facility with the lower level functions produces a gloss of mocking acceptance/rejection, playing up the lack of facility. If one didn't want to try and use that function, there would be no need to "play up" and pretend to push it aside.
    This is insightful. And, it makes sense. As the ENFPs who, in rep, seemed to have had issues with the stance of this flavour of "Fi manipulation", are also ones who have a good handle on their Te.

    Actually saying something like "we bat our eyelids and make people work for us" is a Te-analysis, possibly superficial, of some, possibly real, process X.
    Why does batting eyelids work? To garner an emotional response. That knowledge, I can't see it being solely in the domain of Te.

    Or they may just like to tease, who knows.
    I think this is the main thing those who were supporting such "Fi manipulation" wanted to explain. It is harmless teasing that is invited and welcomed by the other party.

    I just think that throughout the course of the discussion, a lot of contradictions, and extreme statements made this simple point disappear into obscurity.

    Actually.... instead of "feels it has an individual "value"/right to block", just "blocks". Don't you find it so? When you want to go ahead and analyse, and some Fi user is tossing up objections that have nothing to do with the logical content of the analysis and everything to do with their feeling of being assaulted.
    Yes, there was already mention of "mental" abuse, feeling assulted, being mindfucked [not in a good way], at the hands of the ebil Ti.

    So, we'll go with your correction.

    In response, Damn you Fi, screams the frustrated feeling Ti.

    Yep. Lots of ground for intellectual appreciation, and the relevant intellectual values can be satisfied. Whether this actual lets one love someone else... Actually, it probably does. And lots of little mutant babies ensue.
    If only amour could be that simple and formulaic. Poets, writers, country musicians, therapists and the rebound dude, would lament that day.

    *is tired of being negative, feels disturbances in the force*
    You fight a good fight, padawan.

  2. #672
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post

    This is insightful. And, it makes sense. As the ENFPs who, in rep, seemed to have had issues with the stance of this flavour of "Fi manipulation", are also ones who have a good handle on their Te.
    I have developed Te, and I appreciate this type of "Fi manipulation" as a sexual game within a romantic relationship. I'm not sure what sexual games have to do with Te, or why it's really anyone's place to judge it.

  3. #673
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    Well then here's a serious question: if I reply in a suitably tertiary defensive manner, perhaps saying "Yes, I do have a purty mouth, thank you", knowing as I do, or think I do, that it'll be perceived as Fe-put down rather than as a warily good humoured Fi-joke...?
    No, I don't think I would take it that way. You're probably the friendliest INTJ on the forum.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  4. #674
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    I have developed Te, and I appreciate this type of "Fi manipulation" as a sexual game within a romantic relationship. I'm not sure what sexual games have to do with Te, or why it's really anyone's place to judge it.
    From what I've seen online, at least, your reactions seem drenched with Fi-misreadings. You take people's statements to extremes and assign them value judgements that they did not make.

    We are not judging....

    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    To each their own. Flavours, taste the rainbows, or some such relevant NF analogy.
    But people can say that for them, it is distasteful. It is afterall, about ENFPs, so, showing only one brand of ENFP thought is skewed, thus, my reasoning for giving the sentiments of the other side (other ENFPs who do not relate).

    You shouldn't judge.

  5. #675
    `~~Philosoflying~~` SillySapienne's Avatar
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    STOP STOP!

    STOPPPPPP!!!!

    There is such a thing as playfulness, and games, friendly games, that two parties in a romantic relationship play.

    This seems UNIVERSAL to me.

    I witness, observe, and experience it.

    And!!!!

    Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!!!!

    I honestly QUESTION how much relationship experience some of you guys have, I do!!!



    What works for two people, works for them

    HOW DARE YOU JUDGE WHAT WORKS FOR TWO PEOPLE IN A RELATIONSHIP!?!?

    As long as they are both happy and content with the song and dance they engage in, there is NO PROBLEM, and...

    Stay the FUCK OUT OF IT!!!

    This is quite similar to sexuality.

    Guess what, if I hypothetically want to be slapped and smacked around and called naughty names by my partner while being fucked who not only obliges but ENJOYS it, guess what, if you have a problem with it, it is exactly that, YOUR PROBLEM!!!

    Human beings, to a certain extent manipulate, some more than others.

    But, you know what!?!?!?

    I HAVE NEVER MET AN NFP WHO WAS ANYWHERE NEARLY AS MANIPULATIVE AS MOST PEOPLE!!!

    Someone please try to explain to me this alleged "Fi manipulation"

    Please.

    Because, that is, at least one of my strong values, DO NOT BE FAKE, DO NOT FORCE, OR SUBTLETY FORCE ANYONE TO DO SOMETHING THEY DON'T WANT TO DO!!!!

    But, there's a caveat.

    When you are in a romantic relationship, sometimes you want to go out to a movie, and your partner wants to stay in, but you feel as though you and your partner haven't gone out in quite a while and it would be nice to be with him outside of your bubble, regardless, you eventually sigh and say, fiiiiiine, we can stay in, and maybe, no, quite possibly you will feel a bit disappointed and if your partner has even an iota of emotional intelligence, he'll pick up on your emotional state due to the circumstances and he might then change his mind and say, ok babe, l can tell you really want to go out, let's look at movie times to which you beam!!!



    Okay, I love you, thank you, thank you, thank you!!!

    NOW, IF ANY OF YOU PEOPLE CONSIDER THIS TO BE EMOTIONAL, OR FI MANIPULATION YOU ARE SORELY MISTAKEN!!!

    WHY?!!?!

    Because that emotional response is SINCERE!!!

    And, in this situation, you would have definitely stayed in and watched a movie at home, and yes, have been a lil disappointed.

    There is something called COMPROMISE!!!

    And two people who are in a relationship need to know and understand this concept VERY VERY VERY WELL!!!

    As someone who can easily be manipulated into doing things, (a weakness I HATE about myself), I am honestly disgusted at the mere thought of ANYONE thinking or suggesting that I engage in overt manipulation.

    EW!!!

    EW^infinity!!!
    `
    'Cause you can't handle me...

    "A lie is a lie even if everyone believes it. The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it." - David Stevens

    "That that is, is. That that is not, is not. Is that it? It is."

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  6. #676
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    ^ was that directed at me?

  7. #677
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    From what I've seen online, at least, your reactions seem drenched with Fi-misreadings. You take people's statements to extremes and assign them value judgements that they did not make.

    We are not judging....



    But people can say that for them, it is distasteful. It is afterall, about ENFPs, so, showing only one brand of ENFP thought is skewed, thus, my reasoning for giving the sentiments of the other side (other ENFPs who do not relate).

    You shouldn't judge.
    Hmm...lets see...a handful of ENTPs wander into a thread about ENFP/INTJ relationships and turn it into a rambling ten-page dialogue about what they see wrong with "Fi manipulation." You weren't the one who compared it to date rape or emotional abuse, but it was referred to that a few pages back. So drop the "we" and insert "I" when you say judging isn't taking place.

  8. #678
    `~~Philosoflying~~` SillySapienne's Avatar
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    No, you and Kalach, I'm actually not sure.

    I read his post earlier today, and then I read "Fi manipulation"

    And, I kinda lost it.

    `
    'Cause you can't handle me...

    "A lie is a lie even if everyone believes it. The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it." - David Stevens

    "That that is, is. That that is not, is not. Is that it? It is."

    Veritatem dies aperit

    Ride si sapis

    Intelligentle sparkles

  9. #679
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    SS, apparently because we can influence people's states of minds, by gently touching upon their emotions, it's considered manipulation. Personally, I don't care what it's called, it's a skill. It's not good or evil. It just is. It's the skill level of the user as well as the ethics they wield that make the difference imo. And as far as I'm concerned you can do the same with turning someone's head upside down (thought) or forcing someone to do something (physical action), for instance, so.. *shrug*
    ★ڿڰۣ✿ℒoѵℯ✿ڿڰۣ★





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  10. #680
    `~~Philosoflying~~` SillySapienne's Avatar
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    And, I think I felt the need to defend Amar, I read her, or should I say, I read into her relationship song and dance, and felt as though there was NOTHING AT ALL WRONG WITH IT!!!

    And for people to think she is being manipulative, rather than being PLAYFUL!?!??!

    I dunno, it bothered me.
    `
    'Cause you can't handle me...

    "A lie is a lie even if everyone believes it. The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it." - David Stevens

    "That that is, is. That that is not, is not. Is that it? It is."

    Veritatem dies aperit

    Ride si sapis

    Intelligentle sparkles

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