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  1. #661
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    The bolded part is a very true observation on your part.

    My point is more about the object of the unchangeable Fi faith. You're familiar with how utterly weird Ni is, right? Te is more accessible, but it, too, can be rather spooky when dealing with Ni. I believe the INTJ tertiary Fi gains a very strong feeling of security when NiTe functions smoothly. It is a faith and a trust and a confidence. We trust that Ni will quickly provide reliable perceptions, and that Te will just as quickly sort and organize it and make provide Quality Assurance that we aren't off base. When that Ni clicks, we just go. When we were kids, we were nervous and afraid, but there's something about NiTe that always seems more than up to the task, and Fi eventually trusts that, and that grows into that aura of self confidence.

    I think it helps to remember that Fi isn't "feelings" but rather the manner in which one processes feelings. My "feelings" tell me I'm at my happiest when doing something intellectual/logical/challenging/learning/teaching. Most all INTJs will tell you they hardly feel confident at all, but when the topic matter comes up with which they're familiar, suddenly its as if all of that trepidation just disappears. We "just know." There is no fear, just a quiet certainty that even if we make a mistake, it will be easily and painlessly corrected. It's the whole INTJ arrogance thing. The only reason we feel such confidence, such arrogance, is because we are that good, and we've proven it to our toughest critic: ourselves. And the moment we traverse back into an area of knowledge or skills with which we're unfamiliar, we go quiet. We lose the aura of authority. We become a normal schlub.

    I should correct you with respect to Ni being the ultimate authority. Ni is merely the first actor, the workhorse. It steps in first, and often solves things without Te or Ti or Fi having to become involved. However, after Ni processes something it is up to Te or Ti or Fi to do something with it. If it's clearly a logistical issue, Te handles it. If it's a fairly complex theoretical issue, Te and Ti jointly handle it (which can make it hard for me to tell the difference, because my experience has trained both to be very skilled and often used). If it's a human issue, my Te and Ti give it a brief glance to make sure there isn't something obvious and objective that would resolve it, at which point Fi is given the final authority, as you might put it. In a weird way, that makes Fi the real final authority, the executive that has delegated responsibility to Ni, Te and Ti, but has to step in and handle matters that cannot be delegated. In the end, Fi knows what is right and will decide it ... but it would really rather not having to decide for itself.

    I would say that Fi expresses the core of my faith. It's remarkably rock solid, mostly because it is shielded from having to process mundane concerns by my other processes, and only comes into play for that which it is suited.

    With respect to religious guilt, I think it's more that INTJs don't get suckered into guilt. The lack of Fe means we don't become upset due to others' feelings. Fi is thereby very protected from abuse: Ni, and Te, and Ti take care of almost everything, and Fe doesn't toss in a curve ball of taking someone's hissy fit seriously. All that is left is what *I* feel.

    I'm wondering what role Ti plays for an INFJ. One would think it would be analogous to the role of Fi for an INTJ, with deleterious results for an immature tertiary, and remarkable talents for a developed tertiary. Perhaps you might be able to enlighten me?
    I agree to so much of this within me which is why I follow this thread. The only parts I dont agree to is the unwavering faith of Fi. Hence why my eyes never shut and its like I am forced to see no matter what happens to Fi within me. Fi is just something that is experienced within me, but never really controls an unwaivering faith in something or any beliefs. It does give me an idea of desires and wants, but a Ti-Ni loop is more of what causes a stubborness or unwaivering belief. It comes out as you believe what you want to and I will believe what I want to because I cannot logically see what you say. Provide more input and my stubborness subsides and I am open again. This is where Ne comes in handy and from experience is where Fe doesnt do much as I dont need to be convinced, but presented with more data to process.

    Fe seems to try to convince you of something which instead of reacting like Fi/Te does and say "are you trying to convince me of something" I instead fight because of the way its done. My INTJ dad picks this up and responds in a better fashion then I do. With me, if you want something, tell me dont try to convince me. More likely then not I will give in to what you want. I wont change my want, but will allow you to have yours.
    Im out, its been fun

  2. #662
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    On the other hand, that the ENFPs do wander around flouncing and pouting... they must know they are themselves up to something...

    And surely they are. There's some type dynamics thing at work here. I think everyone does play up their tertiary function in relation to other people. In the relief role, it does want attention. If it gets to be expressed in communication with someone else, one gets a buzz. So if the ENFPs are wandering around saying, look at me, lalalala, I'm manIPulating you. Check me out, it's a process I call <pause for Marylin Monroe voice> extraverted thinking... Mr President.</>

    The appropriate response is the flat level ORLY? stare, and then they tell you the truth.




    Y'know, there's something really wrong in this discussion now. Some bizarre element has entered it. (I'm not referring to the ENTPs.) I'm referring to the hubris. The idea of having answers to what these manipulations may be without referring to the person as she or he happens to be.

    Does anyone have a tissue? I seem to have spilled Fi on my lapel.
    I agree, for me its when they respond with a different Fi around me and others and out comes the real Fi as opposed to the rose colored glasses version. Have had an NFP come out and say something rude because of action and then see it was me and backstep. This shows me 2 things. How they feel about me in a round about way(how tinted their rose colored glasses are when they are looking at me) and how they really feel about my action. If their rose colored glasses slip to much I know I need to readjust them

    I like rose colored glasses and try to do whatever I can to keep them on.
    Im out, its been fun

  3. #663
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by poki View Post
    I agree to so much of this within me which is why I follow this thread. The only parts I dont agree to is the unwavering faith of Fi. Hence why my eyes never shut and its like I am forced to see no matter what happens to Fi within me. Fi is just something that is experienced within me, but never really controls an unwaivering faith in something or any beliefs. It does give me an idea of desires and wants, but a Ti-Ni loop is more of what causes a stubborness or unwaivering belief. It comes out as you believe what you want to and I will believe what I want to because I cannot logically see what you say. Provide more input and my stubborness subsides and I am open again. This is where Ne comes in handy and from experience is where Fe doesnt do much as I dont need to be convinced, but presented with more data to process.

    Fe seems to try to convince you of something which instead of reacting like Fi/Te does and say "are you trying to convince me of something" I instead fight because of the way its done. My INTJ dad picks this up and responds in a better fashion then I do. With me, if you want something, tell me dont try to convince me. More likely then not I will give in to what you want. I wont change my want, but will allow you to have yours.
    Faith is expressed by Fi, it doesn't "come from" Fi. If you don't have a feeling of faith, you won't feel it. There is a bit of correlation, though. If you have a very strong Fi, you really need that faith to stay on on even keel. In the case of a strong Ti user, Fi is usually weak, and there isn't a need for faith, per se, since one relies on Ti for logical reasoning and Fe to handle most emotional matters.

    I like your explainition of "tell me don't try to convince me." I've run into that with IxTPs before. Te and Fe will spend their time trying to persuade, when really all you need to know is whether you have to do it, not whether you want to do it.

  4. #664
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    I'm completely lost in this thread.

    My eyes are glazing over.

    I'm not sure whether I'm supposed to find joke-arrogance attractive.

    That is all.

  5. #665
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Faith is expressed by Fi, it doesn't "come from" Fi. If you don't have a feeling of faith, you won't feel it. There is a bit of correlation, though. If you have a very strong Fi, you really need that faith to stay on on even keel. In the case of a strong Ti user, Fi is usually weak, and there isn't a need for faith, per se, since one relies on Ti for logical reasoning and Fe to handle most emotional matters.

    I like your explainition of "tell me don't try to convince me." I've run into that with IxTPs before. Te and Fe will spend their time trying to persuade, when really all you need to know is whether you have to do it, not whether you want to do it.
    Yes, we are Fe no matter how inferior it may be I can tell from a mile off when Te tries to do this with me as well and that I am fighting a hidden Fi.
    Im out, its been fun

  6. #666
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    Quote Originally Posted by greed View Post


    I'm completely lost in this thread.

    My eyes are glazing over.

    I'm not sure whether I'm supposed to find joke-arrogance attractive.

    That is all.
    Your supposed to see at as you want. Some arrogance hits home, while some dont. Its not the joke-arrogance that your supposed to find attractive, but the way in which it is used. We are all cocky/arrogant with what we are good. I have sat on the couch watching american idol and someones arrogance I thought was hilarious while it rubbed my wife the wrong way. I would love to be able to be arrogant in that fashion as a tool of confidence to show the world. To me thats a sign as to where I want to head, but not something I want to use to a fault or as my default self.
    Im out, its been fun

  7. #667
    Senior Member the state i am in's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    It's not the stubbornness that you're thinking of, if you're trying to have a more-or-less factual objective discussion. The Fi faith is really just an emotional reaction to using Te and Ni, it isn't the driver. It's easy for one who uses Fe to read the Fi effect as the cause. It's only when you're trying to emotionally persuade someone that the Fi faith of which state speaks comes into play, hence the resistance to religious guilt, etc.
    introverted judgment ties you to a form of truth that exists in your own internal representational experiential map. what you learn about the world and decide is true (to keep) is based on Ji. you need Ji to make long-term decisions, to ground you and to remind you of what is true (either subjectively or objectively). it helps you weigh possibility against an inner, learned set of values/principles.

    faith is different than the confidence you get from Te. i generally find Te to over-estimate its abilities. it is good at getting something done, but the value of what that something is often leaves me feeling this, meh, but WHY did you do it that predominant Te users can never seem to answer (only evade).

    in a kind of perfect linear way, 1 then 2 then 3 would be nice. but your functions create feedback all along the way, they all contribute input and the whole mish-mash gets processed. as far as "driver's seat" goes, you are most comfortable and natural and almost transparent with your first. your second is the one that you spend serious time using to understand, and your third is kind of a silent pull. without quality second, the silent pull can easily reinforce what you want to believe to be true, or assume to be true. what gets stored in tertiary Ji must be seriously important to the user for reasons that are often less self-aware than the first two functions, but it needs pressure from the auxiliary to limit it and give it better guidance in order to learn and update itself accordingly to produce realistic goals, expectations, and inner sense of purpose.

    i imagine that a thought process could shift conscious awareness to Ni, then to Te, then to Fi. but without constant feedback between them, the lack of structuring elements, the discursive communication between them, wouldn't really make sense.

  8. #668
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    Or our Ti button--it's ad nauseum!
    She speaks like five languages. How many do you speak?

  9. #669
    Was E.laur Laurie's Avatar
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    ENFP + INTJ is a Disaster!!!!1111

  10. #670
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the state i am in View Post
    faith is different than the confidence you get from Te. i generally find Te to over-estimate its abilities. it is good at getting something done, but the value of what that something is often leaves me feeling this, meh, but WHY did you do it that predominant Te users can never seem to answer (only evade).
    From the Te user's perspective, the Fe user is always trying to figure out "why" we do something never realizing that our answer IS the answer, not an evasion. We desire a logical organization of something or to accomplish a task. Fe is looking for answers like, "because it would help someone" or "because I find it fulfilling" ... or they try to assign motivations like "because he's greedy" or "because he doesn't like me."

    Honestly, for a strong Te user, that isn't where our head (or heart) is. Somewhere deep inside, I'm sure there's that core motivation you're looking for, but the thoughts we're juggling in our heads are logistical, objective thoughts. Our conscious reasons are "because it's more efficient" and "because it works better this way", and not "because I wanted to piss you off."

    Our core motivations, as you've noted for Fi, are more about "who we are". We've made certain core choices, such as a field of work, what we want out of a relationship, and so on. The rest of our choices are Te-based logistics dealing with the circumstances that life throws at us. The closest you're going to get to our "real" motivations as you perceive them would be statements like, "because I'm interested in that" or "because it's fun" or "because I'd like to get to know you better." We won't know why we're interested, or why we think it's fun, or why we want to get to know you better ... it's that elemental, very Fi.

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