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  1. #641
    `~~Philosoflying~~` SillySapienne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    I totally relate.
    YouTube - Alicia Keys ft Baby cham Ghetto Story (sorry, the sound quality is ass bad :/)

    I imagine hearing this song live, during the summer, at some outdoor concert, no, festival, and the sun is setting, and there's a crowd of people there, all emitting positive vibes, and I'm dancing in the middle of it all, wearing a flowing soft cotton dress, hair up, bangs down, smile on my face, swaying, smiling, slowly rocking, back and forth, raising my arms in the air, rocking my hips back and forth, chest undulating back and forth, heart chakra open, smiling!!!

    Ahhhhhh, I think I may be going to Coachella this year.

    Though, I'd prefer going to Reggae on the River, if that festival still exists.

    Good times.



    Another fabulous song.

    YouTube - the beta band - to you alone

    `
    'Cause you can't handle me...

    "A lie is a lie even if everyone believes it. The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it." - David Stevens

    "That that is, is. That that is not, is not. Is that it? It is."

    Veritatem dies aperit

    Ride si sapis

    Intelligentle sparkles

  2. #642
    `~~Philosoflying~~` SillySapienne's Avatar
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    ^ Why being an ENFP rocks!

    :P
    `
    'Cause you can't handle me...

    "A lie is a lie even if everyone believes it. The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it." - David Stevens

    "That that is, is. That that is not, is not. Is that it? It is."

    Veritatem dies aperit

    Ride si sapis

    Intelligentle sparkles

  3. #643
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    Default Adorned by the light of your gaze....

    Quote Originally Posted by SillySapienne View Post
    Regarding truth.

    This might sound cheesy, and highly F-ish, but when I'm listening to some awesome music, and I let my *mind go* and I just dance to the beat within me, throughout me, I feel a sense of oneness with the universe.

    Harmony and rhythm, baby.

    That's where it's at.

    One of our greatest subjective truths: beauty.

    Behold the beauty of the moved, emotional Fi:

    [youtube=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ZcpUyI9jhU]Beautiful[/youtube]

  4. #644
    `~~Philosoflying~~` SillySapienne's Avatar
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    `
    'Cause you can't handle me...

    "A lie is a lie even if everyone believes it. The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it." - David Stevens

    "That that is, is. That that is not, is not. Is that it? It is."

    Veritatem dies aperit

    Ride si sapis

    Intelligentle sparkles

  5. #645
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    Sorry, Amar, the bolded does not resonate with me at all. If anything, it feels the opposite of safe, it feels like an illusion of safety, an illusion of intimacy, an illusion of connection. Since, it's built on the framework of manipulation.
    The ENFPs have called it manipulation, and thus I shall call them a little retarded. Given that we are talking ENFP and INTJ, it's an exchange, one side prompting the other side to do what they do well, and together they end up doing better. In the successful relationships the participants tend to be conscious that they are being asked to do something they are good at in trade for help with something they're not so good at but want to be good at.

    Every person in the entire goddamn world aims for this. It's called dual-seeking behaviour.

    Was it Myers or Briggs, I forget, maybe it was Keirsey, one of the Illuminati anyway--said all conflict between people has its roots in dual-seeking behaviour.

    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    Jenocyde was discussing with me one time, and she summed up Fe quite well. It's fairness.
    Fairness to other Fe users. Respect. All that garbage. For other Fe users. In a Te world, Fe is a giant turd on the production sheets--a mess that must be cleaned up before work can proceed.

    (I exaggerate.)
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

    Boy meets Grr

  6. #646
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    Jenocyde was discussing with me one time, and she summed up Fe quite well. It's fairness.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    Fairness to other Fe users. Respect. All that garbage. For other Fe users. In a Te world, Fe is a giant turd on the production sheets--a mess that must be cleaned up before work can proceed.

    (I exaggerate.)
    *claps hands*

  7. #647
    Senior Member the state i am in's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    I think there's a lot to that Fe is to Fi as Te is to Ti observation. I was watching a series of youtube videos with an INFP and INFJ going at it. The INFJ was expressing the same kind of frustration with the INFP as an INTJ would toward an INTP (very diplomatic; they were talking about the frustration, not being frustrated) ... except it was all dealing with feelings instead of objective theoretical observations.

    For my part, I don't think Ti gets in the way so much as the Ne from an INTP hides crucial info from me, that it takes forever to get out. I don't find my own Ti anywhere nearly so annoying.

    With respect to Te vs. Fe, I find that INFJs tend to sound a lot like INTJs to me. It's only when we disagree that I find out it's an INFJ, because the terms of the disagreement take a long time to discover.

    And yes, I think you're right with respect to Fi. It's where our confidence lies. However, I think you have it backwards: Fi isn't confident in its feeling/subjective truths, but rather it is confident in Te's objective truths, which are verified in the real world. (It is a naive confidence, at times, but gradually less so as the INTJ matures.)
    you say objective truths but i hear pragmatic and empirical. to me these denote half-truths and white-lies. they are about implementation, rather than what i consider truth. i find Fi and Ti to be far more rooted in an all-encompassing understanding of truth.

    your point about confidence confuses me at this point, but i think it is bc you are showing me something i do not understand. i see Te truth as regulating what is doable, or finding a way to make it happen. and ultimate authority goes to the Ni context-finder to produce a complete inner working mind's eye vision of what is important, a best vantage point to see the most. i don't know how to describe it but i feel like intjs hold on to a faith that infjs rarely have. this feels like an unchangeable Fi faith.

    whereas i find that intjs often have far far far more realistic expectations and less unhealthy relationship projections/ideals/hang-ups. infjs get suckered into religious guilt way too easily.

    Quote Originally Posted by Happy Puppy View Post
    On the Fi threads mirroring was brought up. It isnt really a choice-it is an innate biological response. I dont choose it, it just happens. Evolution found a cute way to cheat and insure that we aid the weakest members of the group, as otherwise we suffer their pain. So while I can pick these behaviors apart and describe them analytically, recognize they are as innate as your Ti/Fe. When I cheated with Fe, Fi went away. It was so calm and peaceful.

    I would suggest Fi is the most draining of the judging functions to use.

    As for Fi truth? For another Fi user, it is the truth, albeit then judged according to the standards of Te. Yes, help them through pain, react to the Fi presentation, but then apply Te to give them advice-ie tell them what they need to do. Te is pretty fucking bossy. But from the perspective of Fe, it looks like Fi just won. But later the other Fi users will observe if the Fi user repeats and then judge them via Te accordingly. Te is fucking harsh.
    this doesn't completely fit my perspective of many many batches of enfps that i've seen. i think it is wrong to assign it to Fi 1 to 1, tho i think it's very much in the range of nfp potential. but many people don't go down this path at all.

    i also think the understanding of Fi vs Fe is misguided. i walk down the street and i feel others (when i'm blissed out). i can hear their thoughts and feel their smiles, their hand-gestures, their body language. i know exactly where they are within their conversings. i see them within an endless and differentiated series of scopes, uncovering the way they relate to the world in an infinite loop. but it all happens instantaneously, i know what they want, what they are made up of, where they're from, etc.

    i think amargith produced some great expressions of Fi in this thread, and it seems like wielding this huge emotional compass. and feeling really fuckin confident you know where you are, that your instruments are extremely advanced, that you know a far-greater range of distinct emotions, and that those models allow you to make accurate emotional predictions in others.

    i know plenty of nfps who know exactly how to find my emotion and make me trust that they've got it under control, i'm in good hands with Fi, etc. the whole "emotional game" thing makes sense to me, trying to discern what you want, what you hope for, how you feel (security level!!!!), what you expect(ation), where you're coming from, who you think you are, how you relate to your own emotional experiences, etc.

    i do think Fe types can be empathetic in more ways than Fi types seem to think. when i feel blissed out, it's bc my heart-center feels more awake. like i'm leaning forward from my chest, open, allowing the world to pour in more freely, confidently, unfiltered, and that i'm listening for the emotional resonances of the world, its thoughts, its consciousness. and most of all the objects that interest me, that inspire me, that make me feel more more more.

    i think the probingness of amargith's examples also demonstrate sx/so. not all nfps are as assertive. i find that sx of any function can be perceived as pushy (i know i can be, at times), and overstep boundaries. but we can't all be sp doms.

    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    I disagree with your first statement. Though Fe is definitely practical, as is Te, Fe is a tool to me. Nothing more. Fi is who I am. That to me is more important than a tool, and therefore gets more priority and more importance.
    and Ni is who i am. but i'm a better person when i allow myself more feedback from other functions. i think we all identify with our dominant function, mostly, but the balance that comes from expansion, learning, and varied centers of awareness seems unquestionably good to me.


    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    Whether it's a byproduct or not, you somewhere along the way attached a feeling to the thought, an emotion, and it is your emotion that makes you feel happy or sad. A thought itself has no emotional flavour. Neither happy, nor sad.

    How would anyone know your thoughts unless you tell them? So any thoughts that are private, stays private. Any thoughts that are manifested, projected out, is not private any longer. It is still within your control - what to make private, what to make public. In this, you give consent for it to be played with.

    Emotions that are private, or public, regardless, are still a person's feelings. It doesn't necessarily give you the right to play with them.

    You make a statement about suicide. I take that statement and start thinking of possible other responses to it. It's not about you, or me, it's about the topic of suicide.

    You have a feeling about committing suicide. I take that feeling and start to play around with them in possible ways. It is about you, and me doing it to you, about your personal stance/feelings on suicide.

    Imagine the difference.

    There's a reason why there's something called emotional abuse, but no such thing called a thought abuse - except "thought police"/censorship - where one is stopped from thinking. Emotional abuse is not about stopping someone from feeling, though. It is about making them feel something negative that is not what they want to feel.

    Emotion is felt. A thought is neutral, unless a value is attached to it (then, it becomes paired with a feeling/an emotion).
    for F types their thoughts are primarily organized thru emotional experiences, resonances, and relationships. fucking with the thoughts of an Fi type who doesn't feel prepared to defend them, and having what seems to them to be a condescending dikembe mutombo finger "not in my house" air enrages them bc it traps them in ideas and words that they cannot escape. it threatens to devour their subjective truth with an objective one based on language and what you call thought. F is implicit, holistic, and indefinite. it is unfocused, but wide-ranging.

  8. #648
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the state i am in View Post
    you say objective truths but i hear pragmatic and empirical. to me these denote half-truths and white-lies. they are about implementation, rather than what i consider truth. i find Fi and Ti to be far more rooted in an all-encompassing understanding of truth.

    your point about confidence confuses me at this point, but i think it is bc you are showing me something i do not understand. i see Te truth as regulating what is doable, or finding a way to make it happen. and ultimate authority goes to the Ni context-finder to produce a complete inner working mind's eye vision of what is important, a best vantage point to see the most. i don't know how to describe it but i feel like intjs hold on to a faith that infjs rarely have. this feels like an unchangeable Fi faith.

    whereas i find that intjs often have far far far more realistic expectations and less unhealthy relationship projections/ideals/hang-ups. infjs get suckered into religious guilt way too easily.
    The bolded part is a very true observation on your part.

    My point is more about the object of the unchangeable Fi faith. You're familiar with how utterly weird Ni is, right? Te is more accessible, but it, too, can be rather spooky when dealing with Ni. I believe the INTJ tertiary Fi gains a very strong feeling of security when NiTe functions smoothly. It is a faith and a trust and a confidence. We trust that Ni will quickly provide reliable perceptions, and that Te will just as quickly sort and organize it and make provide Quality Assurance that we aren't off base. When that Ni clicks, we just go. When we were kids, we were nervous and afraid, but there's something about NiTe that always seems more than up to the task, and Fi eventually trusts that, and that grows into that aura of self confidence.

    I think it helps to remember that Fi isn't "feelings" but rather the manner in which one processes feelings. My "feelings" tell me I'm at my happiest when doing something intellectual/logical/challenging/learning/teaching. Most all INTJs will tell you they hardly feel confident at all, but when the topic matter comes up with which they're familiar, suddenly its as if all of that trepidation just disappears. We "just know." There is no fear, just a quiet certainty that even if we make a mistake, it will be easily and painlessly corrected. It's the whole INTJ arrogance thing. The only reason we feel such confidence, such arrogance, is because we are that good, and we've proven it to our toughest critic: ourselves. And the moment we traverse back into an area of knowledge or skills with which we're unfamiliar, we go quiet. We lose the aura of authority. We become a normal schlub.

    I should correct you with respect to Ni being the ultimate authority. Ni is merely the first actor, the workhorse. It steps in first, and often solves things without Te or Ti or Fi having to become involved. However, after Ni processes something it is up to Te or Ti or Fi to do something with it. If it's clearly a logistical issue, Te handles it. If it's a fairly complex theoretical issue, Te and Ti jointly handle it (which can make it hard for me to tell the difference, because my experience has trained both to be very skilled and often used). If it's a human issue, my Te and Ti give it a brief glance to make sure there isn't something obvious and objective that would resolve it, at which point Fi is given the final authority, as you might put it. In a weird way, that makes Fi the real final authority, the executive that has delegated responsibility to Ni, Te and Ti, but has to step in and handle matters that cannot be delegated. In the end, Fi knows what is right and will decide it ... but it would really rather not having to decide for itself.

    I would say that Fi expresses the core of my faith. It's remarkably rock solid, mostly because it is shielded from having to process mundane concerns by my other processes, and only comes into play for that which it is suited.

    With respect to religious guilt, I think it's more that INTJs don't get suckered into guilt. The lack of Fe means we don't become upset due to others' feelings. Fi is thereby very protected from abuse: Ni, and Te, and Ti take care of almost everything, and Fe doesn't toss in a curve ball of taking someone's hissy fit seriously. All that is left is what *I* feel.

    I'm wondering what role Ti plays for an INFJ. One would think it would be analogous to the role of Fi for an INTJ, with deleterious results for an immature tertiary, and remarkable talents for a developed tertiary. Perhaps you might be able to enlighten me?

  9. #649
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    The ENFPs have called it manipulation, and thus I shall call them a little retarded.
    Actually, it was me, who called two certain manifestation of Fi manipulative. Not all Fi manipulative.

    Sparked by this initial post of mine:
    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...2-post361.html

    Then, certain Fi members agreed, and the thread divulged into a discussion of how such manipulation is okay/not okay. What exactly is the "manipulation" they were speaking of...et cetra...

    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...2-post538.html

    Given that we are talking ENFP and INTJ, it's an exchange, one side prompting the other side to do what they do well, and together they end up doing better. In the successful relationships the participants tend to be conscious that they are being asked to do something they are good at in trade for help with something they're not so good at but want to be good at.
    I agree, especially the bolded, and had said something similar myself, earlier in this thread:

    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    The INTJ ex and I had discussed, and I knew right away when his intentions were good, and even pointed that out to him, I know you do X to help me, but, helping me by infringing on my autonomy is more a hindrance than a help. Teach me to be my own master, not to be indebted/rely on your mastery.
    Reciprocity is a good thing. However, the bolded was distinctly missing from the examples that initially made me use the term "manipulation" for certain manifestations of Fi. Enabling helplessness/faking helplessness is a mockery of reciprocity.

    And, I also didn't equate Fi to be manipulate. Only those specific examples. Fi can be manipulative, just as Fe can.

    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...6-post578.html

    Fairness to other Fe users. Respect. All that garbage. For other Fe users. In a Te world, Fe is a giant turd on the production sheets--a mess that must be cleaned up before work can proceed.

    (I exaggerate.)
    You do.

    I related Fe to fairness, and Fi to be authentic.

    Now, if we go by your logic:

    Authenticity to other Fi users. Individuality. All that garbage. For other Fi users. In a Ti world, Fi is a giant turd that feels it has an individual "value"/right to block the process of logical consistency-- a mess that must be cleaned up before analysing and understanding a system can proceed.

    (I mimic.)

    I cannot agree with these sentiments, neither yours, nor mine's, because I see authenticity in certain manifestations of Fi (see my post link above). And, I am an Fe user.

    This would mean that there is no common ground of understanding unless you share the same function. Pardon my Swahili, but, Bullshit. Each function has its unique role, that has utility in our world, so each can have value beyond itself. And recognized as such...even by foreigners. For foreigners, it may take a bit more time than the natives, but, recognition can and do happen. And, a goat is not recognized as a dog, suddenly, but, still...a goat (even if they are not too familiar, initially, with what a goat really is). All about willingness to understand.


    Quote Originally Posted by the state i am in View Post
    for F types their thoughts are primarily organized thru emotional experiences, resonances, and relationships.
    Makes sense.

    fucking with the thoughts of an Fi type who doesn't feel prepared to defend them, and having what seems to them to be a condescending dikembe mutombo finger "not in my house" air enrages them bc it traps them in ideas and words that they cannot escape.
    Only if it is a suprise attack, but if they initially willingly put their thoughts out there, to Fi-el how others perceive it...then, hey.......it's more a commentary on their preparedness/their understanding of their Fi (ability to explain it, perhaps), then any commentary on an attack on Fi.

    it threatens to devour their subjective truth with an objective one based on language and what you call thought. F is implicit, holistic, and indefinite. it is unfocused, but wide-ranging.
    Subjective truth can hold its own as well as an objective one, based on language and thought. If the premise of the subjective truth rings....true.

    I'd say F is more nuanced than T, and this makes it appear perhaps more unfocused. Way too many angles, of "equal" relevance, to figure out, and settle on, a focus.

  10. #650
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    Actually, it was me, who called two certain manifestation of Fi manipulative. Not all Fi manipulative.
    Some people played along, however, suggesting some kind of one-up game existed--trying, it would seem, to explain themselves placing feeling above thinking as amounting to making other people succumb to their feeling. Or something like that. It looked odd.

    Reciprocity is a good thing. However, the bolded was distinctly missing from the examples that initially made me use the term "manipulation" for certain manifestations of Fi. Enabling helplessness/faking helplessness is a mockery of reciprocity.
    Yeah, they were describing it wrong, I think. Perhaps that kind of behaviour does go on, but as a (hopefully) surface representation of a more real process: a push pull of rejecting and accepting lower level functions. The relative lack of facility with the lower level functions produces a gloss of mocking acceptance/rejection, playing up the lack of facility. If one didn't want to try and use that function, there would be no need to "play up" and pretend to push it aside.

    Actually saying something like "we bat our eyelids and make people work for us" is a Te-analysis, possibly superficial, of some, possibly real, process X.

    Or they may just like to tease, who knows.


    /facile ass-covering.

    You do.
    I do. *feels shame at illogically dividing the world via partisan evaluation*

    I related Fe to fairness, and Fi to be authentic.

    Now, if we go by your logic:

    Authenticity to other Fi users. Individuality. All that garbage. For other Fi users. In a Ti world, Fi is a giant turd that feels it has an individual "value"/right to block the process of logical consistency-- a mess that must be cleaned up before analysing and understanding a system can proceed.

    (I mimic.)
    Actually.... instead of "feels it has an individual "value"/right to block", just "blocks". Don't you find it so? When you want to go ahead and analyse, and some Fi user is tossing up objections that have nothing to do with the logical content of the analysis and everything to do with their feeling of being assaulted.

    This would mean that there is no common ground of understanding unless you share the same function. Pardon my Swahili, but, Bullshit. Each function has its unique role, that has utility in our world, so each can have value beyond itself. And recognized as such...even by foreigners. For foreigners, it may take a bit more time than the natives, but, recognition can and do happen. And, a goat is not recognized as a dog, suddenly, but, still...a goat (even if they are not too familiar, initially, with what a goat really is). All about willingness to understand.
    Yep. Lots of ground for intellectual appreciation, and the relevant intellectual values can be satisfied. Whether this actual lets one love someone else... Actually, it probably does. And lots of little mutant babies ensue.


    *is tired of being negative, feels disturbances in the force*
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

    Boy meets Grr

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