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  1. #581
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ragingkatsuki View Post
    A few pages past since I my last post. This is moving too quickly.
    'Maybe' implies a possibility or uncertainty. Possibilities and uncertainties exist when not enough knowledge is known.
    Once again, quantum physics. Observer effect influences everything, therefore certain knowledge of all facets of a thing is impossible.

    Alright then what if the universe doesn't exist? Everything you know about the universe is 'knowledge'.
    What if they are merely delusions?

    What you are telling me is by your knowledge. What if your knowledge is false? That all your perceptions of the universe is not truly how it is. The universe is just a perception.
    Ahh, but then what makes yours more correct than mine? What then defines "true" from "false" at this moment? Was the Matrix a false reality?

    You tell me if knowledge is controlling when you can't live without it. You will use knowledge to write your next post, and to think of what to say, and to control your schedules. Controlling you.
    No, I'll use a complex assortment of molecules and electric fields to influence the other assortment of molecules and electric fields into making this post. Or maybe I won't. Or maybe the universe is static and perpetual, and we don't even know where to start on all of this.

    Empiricism doesn't dominate science because it's true, it dominates because it works.

  2. #582
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Happy Puppy View Post
    On the Fi threads mirroring was brought up. It isnt really a choice-it is an innate biological response. I dont choose it, it just happens. Evolution found a cute way to cheat and insure that we aid the weakest members of the group, as otherwise we suffer their pain. So while I can pick these behaviors apart and describe them analytically, recognize they are as innate as your Ti/Fe. When I cheated with Fe, Fi went away. It was so calm and peaceful.
    I'd like to hear more about this. I think it might be similar to INTJ using Te. When I -really- use Te, there is no Fi, for the time being. Everything is logical. Everything makes sense. There is no right or wrong, just correct and incorrect observations. It's like listening to a Bach fugue, everything in its place, perhaps with a quietly joyful serenity or slight wistfulness, but otherwise dry of emotion: a very peaceful feeling.

    [YOUTUBE="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2mZvdGAGlOo"]The orderliness of Te placates Fi for a short while ...[/YOUTUBE]

    I would suggest Fi is the most draining of the judging functions to use.
    Very possibly. The thing about introversion is that it works from the inside out: Fi is drawing on your inner energies, and eventually drains you without a pause to rest and replenish. Fe works from external energies, and energizes you as you use it.

    Ti and Te have a similar behavior, but I suspect the quietude of reason involves less energy flow either way.

    As for Fi truth? For another Fi user, it is the truth, albeit then judged according to the standards of Te. Yes, help them through pain, react to the Fi presentation, but then apply Te to give them advice-ie tell them what they need to do. Te is pretty fucking bossy. But from the perspective of Fe, it looks like Fi just won. But later the other Fi users will observe if the Fi user repeats and then judge them via Te accordingly. Te is fucking harsh.
    Good characterizations.

    To be honest-
    Ti often feels "mean" and Fe feels "manipulative" from my perspective. I always thought that the Fe and Ti users were playing mean games and manipulating each other and calling it flirting. But in reality, that game is how you do exactly what you describe above. It's how you bond. If Ti is logical, competitive understanding and Fe is warm compassion with social reciprocal bonds-well you mix those up in layers as you describe above and forge a deeper connection.
    I'd completely agree with this assessment. When typing others, I look for whether I see the Fi/Te or the Ti/Fe axis, first. Then I worry about I/E and J/P. Sadly, it's the "mean" and "manipulative" I sense from perfectly nice people that lets me type them. I just fake Fe back at them by using Te to decide what to say and Fi to emote it, and they think I'm so wonderfully polite and considerate.


    It's the same game with the same end, but played through a different set of functions-Te and Fi. So it looks very different. Te is an assertive function and Fi an empathic one, so the game looks very different, trading of assertive protection with softness, understanding, but back in forth, deeper and deeper to forge those connection. Same result in the end.

    I could never match the ENTPs dance steps and got hurt over and over again. However to play the Te/Fi game is exceptionally easy and very natural. It just flows with no thought needed. You just do exactly what pops into your head because that is the right answer. I cant emphasize how simple it feels. It may not work out between particular individuals but the cadence is very natural.
    OK, now this is starting to get unfair. You aren't supposed to be more insightful about this than I am. Hmmph.

    *furiously takes notes on the wisdom of the Happy Puppy*

  3. #583
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Please god someone save me. I am trapped at the dvm but I have to replace my lost drivers liscence so I can rent a can tommorow.

    Forget all these phisophical meanderings-on a practical note-

    I am number 22. We are currently on number 73. Is the dvm, unlike the universe, a spherical entity in which eventually it will cycle back around to my turn? Or is it really flat and I am totally hosed??? (But the butt of some hysterical joke)

    If it cycles does it cycle at 100? 1000? AhhhhhHhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!

    On a bright note, this damned crackberry makes me read your posts more slowly so I garner more meaning.

  4. #584
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    Why limit yourself to one function? I'm neither Ne or Ti. I'm me. I have several traits about me that may correspond with certain Jungian archetypes. However, I certainly don't think those archetypes have a thing to do with who I am, they just help others know better how I tick. It's like the highway a couple of miles from here - does "Interstate 95" have any inherent, tangible meaning? Of course not. That strip of pavement is in no literal way "Interstate 95". However, it does help a person understand where that highway goes, in the entire network of strips of pavement known as the "Interstate Highway System".



    I'm sorry you don't like that characterization, but that's what it is. My perception of it isn't wrong, even if you don't see it that way.



    There are other options to prevent this sort of "mix-up".



    No means no.



    Is this about you or the other person?

    So, it is not that you're missing something? It's not that you might be misinterpreting a friendly nudge for a hostile take over? I dunno, for me it feels very friendly and tender when people do that, at least, if they're not bulldozering all over the place. It is possible to force yourself on someone but most people just gently tap you on the shoulder, ime.

    And it's about both of us. All I'm doing is instead of verbally offering a connection, a chance to get to know one another (or if you already know each other, a chance to just enjoy each others company intimately), is doing it by touching upon your emotions. It's just another language, nothing more. It's an offer..one you're more than free to refuse if you're not comfortable with it
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    "Harm none, do as ye will”

  5. #585
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    So, it is not that you're missing something? It's not that you might be misinterpreting a friendly nudge for a hostile take over? I dunno, for me it feels very friendly and tender when people do that, at least, if they're not bulldozering all over the place. It is possible to force yourself on someone but most people just gently tap you on the shoulder, ime.

    And it's about both of us. All I'm doing is instead of verbally offering a connection, a chance to get to know one another (or if you already know each other, a chance to just enjoy each others company intimately), is doing it by touching upon your emotions. It's just another language, nothing more. It's an offer..one you're more than free to refuse if you're not comfortable with it
    Once again, and I hate to belabor the analogy, would you "misinterpret" a guy penetrating you with a finger on the dance floor as something other than a "friendly" gesture? He might just be wanting to "sync up" with you physically.

    I'm dead serious - that's what we mean when we say "violated".

  6. #586
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    Once again, and I hate to belabor the analogy, would you "misinterpret" a guy penetrating you with a finger on the dance floor as something other than a "friendly" gesture? He might just be wanting to "sync up" with you physically.

    I'm dead serious - that's what we mean when we say "violated".
    Actually, I'm dead serious when I say that what I do is the equivalent to a guy just touching me on the shoulder. I may not like him touching me, but i won't kill him over it. I don't think you really know what I mean by a nudge.

    What you're suggesting is something I only do with those incredibly close to me and my lovers. And even then I'll check for permission. I'm all about free will, trust me. On that, I think most NPs will agree.
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  7. #587
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    Actually, I'm dead serious when I say that what I do is the equivalent to a guy just touching me on the shoulder. I may not like him touching me, but i won't kill him over it.

    What you're suggesting is something I only do with those incredibly close to me and my lovers.
    To. You.

    It might just be a guy copping a feel on a crowded subway. It might be full-blown roofies. It's still the same - someone's getting something without the other person's permission, and the other person generally feels wronged for it.

    It's the point I've been trying to get across - our (at least Fe terts) emotions are very intimate things. They don't belong to you or anyone else. Getting at them without our express, uninfluenced consent has the same emotional impact upon us that rape would have on many people. A "nudge"? Mild annoyance, indignation, but it eventually passes. Full-blown emotional manipulation? Takes years for us to get over, and casts a heavy shadow over the rest of our lives.

    Do you understand? This isn't fucking harmless.

  8. #588
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    It just wouldn't be an ENFP/INTJ thread without ENTPs coming in to criticize us with their superior insight.

  9. #589
    Listening Oaky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    Once again, quantum physics. Observer effect influences everything, therefore certain knowledge of all facets of a thing is impossible.
    Absolutely. And does this affect us?

    What if they are merely delusions?
    Yea, why not? They can be can't they?

    Ahh, but then what makes yours more correct than mine? What then defines "true" from "false" at this moment? Was the Matrix a false reality?
    Truth is reality. Not perception of reality. Now what perception must we have to actually see reality? Every person that ever lived has a different perception on things and you will find no two people that have exactly the same perception. What is reality is that which connected equally in every single perception.

    No, I'll use a complex assortment of molecules and electric fields to influence the other assortment of molecules and electric fields into making this post. Or maybe I won't. Or maybe the universe is static and perpetual, and we don't even know where to start on all of this.
    Well I would guess that if your knowledge was equal to that of a baby we would never have this conversation.
    Empiricism doesn't dominate science because it's true, it dominates because it works.
    But it works because it's true.

  10. #590
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    To. You.

    It might just be a guy copping a feel on a crowded subway. It might be full-blown roofies. It's still the same - someone's getting something without the other person's permission, and the other person generally feels wronged for it.

    It's the point I've been trying to get across - our (at least Fe terts) emotions are very intimate things. They don't belong to you or anyone else. Getting at them without our express, uninfluenced consent has the same emotional impact upon us that rape would have on many people. A "nudge"? Mild annoyance, indignation, but it eventually passes. Full-blown emotional manipulation? Takes years for us to get over, and casts a heavy shadow over the rest of our lives.

    Do you understand? This isn't fucking harmless.
    And you call us oversensitive? You do the same with mind-rape, dude. And you also tell us to grow up and get over it. And once again, I might not like a guy's hand on my body, but it's not something to scream 'rape' over. I'll just tell him it's not appreciated. Period. As for full blown emotional manipulation, I only use that out of sheer self-defense and even then I'm reluctant, or when it is in fact invited and requested (and yes, I do check that twice before going for it), though maybe you've met people who are less ethical, I dunno. That Fi-connection is somethign I treasure anyways, and don't just share with anyone as it makes me vulnerable too.

    I agree that forcing something on someone is never right. And I for one very much get pissy when I see someone forcing someone else into something they clearly don't want. I'm also the first to stop if I notice that the other person isn't enjoying what I'm doing, whatever that may be, emotional manipulation or not. I'm agreeing with you on this, 100 per cent.

    But realize this isn't evil. It's just not your preference. And other people do very much enjoy it, and that doesn't mean you get to scream 'rape' every time you see it happening.
    ★ڿڰۣ✿ℒoѵℯ✿ڿڰۣ★





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