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  1. #571
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post


    Here's the thing - yes, there's a time and a place for everything. Yes, there are two ways of exercising the F function. However, they're not equal. Neither are Te and Ti. Ji is simply not compatible with the outside world. It's entirely impractical outside of our internal psyches. It's why Perceivers of all types (including myself) seem unbalanced until we mature.

    I've heard many complain that Ti analysis of a person can seem akin to an evisceration of sorts. This is entirely true, and why developing Fe to soften the process is so important. However, and I'm sorry to use such emotionally charged language, but it's the best I can think of, this Fi "nudging" you speak of? It strikes me the same way that the idea of date rape does. You're using a technique to force yourself into somewhere that the other person has not necessarily agreed for you to go. Is it OK for someone to drug and date rape someone, even if their partner would have had consensual sex with them that evening without the drug?

    I think this is part of why we respond so strongly to these concepts.
    I disagree with your first statement. Though Fe is definitely practical, as is Te, Fe is a tool to me. Nothing more. Fi is who I am. That to me is more important than a tool, and therefore gets more priority and more importance.

    And I'm not date-raping anyone. I think part of the problem is that you feel blindsighted by this. Only you and Q have, in this discussion, said that it was not consented. The question is in the approach. I've already given you an example: if a guy tries to sync up with me, his motivation for doing so is quite clear, as doing so tends to reveal a part of who you are, it..provides personal info, kinda like pheromones. If I sense genuine curiosity, and admiration, I will gladly let him sync up with me, respond to his emotional nudge. If I sense that it's a means to an end, I'll smile and refuse to answer his nudge. This all happens without explicitely stating it..but it's still communication. Maybe it's something you don't really pick up on? And that's where this paranoia comes from? You only notice it after someone repeatedly nudged you, or has already gone further in the process without you picking up on it?

    This only happens to me when I'm thoroughly distracted, or we're playing a game and they're trying to one-up me (in which case they have my permission to do so). And in case of the distraction, I consider myself at fault, I should've been paying attention.

    As for 'manipulating'..I tend to 'manipulate' out in the open. I will use a sync up in the process, but my words will state perfectly fine what I want from you. All I'm doing is giving you additional feedback, through the sync up, that I am in fact not going to take advantage of you...comfort you, in a sense, show you I'm genuine in my request, coz, as stated before, the sync up reveals more about who I am, and what I am feeling in that moment. If I notice you're not comfortable with a sync up, I'll stop the connection instantly, as I don't want to make you uncomfortable, that's not enjoyable to me either. It's just an additional means of communicating, to me. I consider it a benefit to be able to make people feel at ease with me. It smoothens things out, and it makes me relax as well. It closes that annoying social gap that's there. And some people don't know how to bridge it. I do. So I'm happy to do it for them. And they're more than welcome to tell me 'no'.
    ★ڿڰۣ✿ℒoѵℯ✿ڿڰۣ★





    "Harm none, do as ye will”

  2. #572
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    ALRIGHT THIS THREAD IS ABOUT INTJ/ENFP LOVE.

    It turns out this may involve psychological dissection of your partner.
    Hmmmm, see I was just flirting with ENTPs all last year when I was gouging at your brains tramatically and sending you all to therapy. I really did love you guys the whole time. I was just poking around your insides with some sweet Te to see what you were made of before I dove in for a taste. You guys are so delicious!!!!

    lalalalalaaaa.......I INTJs but ENTPs can have a now and then too...

    Since you asked Q.

    This is utterly ridiculous and quite horrifying to look at but should clear the ENTPs from the thread. It's the Fi wubbie, googly eyed look. Run while you can, because if i catch you I WILL HUG YOU!!!!!!!!

    EDIT: This picture will be removed in one hour. Then the ENTPs can return if they allow for some Fi groping.
    Attached Images Attached Images

  3. #573
    `~~Philosoflying~~` SillySapienne's Avatar
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    You look adorable!!!!

    I like where this thread is going!!!

    `
    'Cause you can't handle me...

    "A lie is a lie even if everyone believes it. The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it." - David Stevens

    "That that is, is. That that is not, is not. Is that it? It is."

    Veritatem dies aperit

    Ride si sapis

    Intelligentle sparkles

  4. #574
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    Not surprising. Still learning the Fe ropes, forgive the pun. Isn't SeNi so wonderfully visual?
    Not in an internal imagery sense. Thats why I am Se, my visual and images come externally, my head is floating around with concepts and ideas. Images rarely pop up and I do better if you draw me a picture that I can see then verbally walking me through a picture.
    Im out, its been fun

  5. #575
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    LOL, that's an adorable pic

    And you're right..this thread is about INTJ-ENFP love. Man, I'm so glad INTJs kinda do this stuff naturally.
    ★ڿڰۣ✿ℒoѵℯ✿ڿڰۣ★





    "Harm none, do as ye will”

  6. #576
    `~~Philosoflying~~` SillySapienne's Avatar
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    Hahahahahaa, Zarathustra took/has a picture of the Valentine's day card I got him, I am sooooo gonna get it then post it in this thread, it is so pukeably precious!!!!



    Almost as gag-worthy as this pic!



    `
    'Cause you can't handle me...

    "A lie is a lie even if everyone believes it. The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it." - David Stevens

    "That that is, is. That that is not, is not. Is that it? It is."

    Veritatem dies aperit

    Ride si sapis

    Intelligentle sparkles

  7. #577
    Listening Oaky's Avatar
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    A few pages past since I my last post. This is moving too quickly.
    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    That sentence denies everything we know about quantum physics.
    'Maybe' implies a possibility or uncertainty. Possibilities and uncertainties exist when not enough knowledge is known.

    Does knowledge control? How do you define control?

    Yes, I'll keep doing this all day - because I'm not going to go left or right like a trained monkey. I'll go up, down, forwards, backwards, or maybe a combination of these directions. We say these words, but at their best, they are nothing more than gross approximations. We scale up, and they become so insignificant as to bear nothing upon the greater workings of the universe. We scale downward, and eventually we get to the terrifying point where we realize that everything is essentially nothing.

    And that is why the answer to your question is mu.
    Alright then what if the universe doesn't exist? Everything you know about the universe is 'knowledge'. What you are telling me is by your knowledge. What if your knowledge is false? That all your perceptions of the universe is not truly how it is. The universe is just a perception.
    You tell me if knowledge is controlling when you can't live without it. You will use knowledge to write your next post, and to think of what to say, and to control your schedules. Controlling you.

  8. #578
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Happy Puppy View Post
    I think that may be an Ne thing.
    Well, Pe/Pi is a gathering tool, it perceives (it doesn't act, per se), while Ji/Je, judges/acts, so it's the doing of the judging functions, how my choices are limited.

    Thus, another's judging fuction (the action upon me) influences my Ne, but, it is the working of a judging function - particular brand of Fi from another. In that example of mine, who is doing the action, not what is acted upon, was the focus. Thus, Fi, not a question of Ne. Fi does, Ne is influenced.

    As for Fi truth? For another Fi user, it is the truth, albeit then judged according to the standards of Te. Yes, help them through pain, react to the Fi presentation, but then apply Te to give them advice-ie tell them what they need to do. Te is pretty fucking bossy. But from the perspective of Fe, it looks like Fi just won. But later the other Fi users will observe if the Fi user repeats and then judge them via Te accordingly. Te is fucking harsh.
    Actually, I find Te to be more palatable than Fi. It's bossy, and perhaps, "harsh" but because it seems so up-front, that it makes it easier to swallow, respond to, tackle, than how I often perceive Fi (as convoluted, and unreachable cuz it's solely in the realm of THEM).

    To be honest-
    Ti often feels "mean" and Fe feels "manipulative" from my perspective. I always thought that the Fe and Ti users were playing mean games and manipulating each other and calling it flirting. But in reality, that game is how you do exactly what you describe above. It's how you bond. If Ti is logical, competitive understanding and Fe is warm compassion with social reciprocal bonds-well you mix those up in layers as you describe above and forge a deeper connection.
    Aw, hell yeah, Fe can most definitely be manipulative. I am very, very good at being manipulative, because of my Fe; yet, due to Fe, I cannot act/will not on that skill of mine (unless somehow the other is really asking for it). In this way, my Fe balances itself out.

    It's the same game with the same end, but played through a different set of functions-Te and Fi. So it looks very different. Te is an assertive function and Fi an empathic one, so the game looks very different, trading of assertive protection with softness, understanding, but back in forth, deeper and deeper to forge those connection. Same result in the end.

    I could never match the ENTPs dance steps and got hurt over and over again. However to play the Te/Fi game is exceptionally easy and very natural. It just flows with no thought needed. You just do exactly what pops into your head because that is the right answer. I cant emphasize how simple it feels. It may not work out between particular individuals but the cadence is very natural.

    I need to make more observations. I havent seen this trend but I havent been watching closely enough.
    I think we're getting too caught up in throwing around the manipulation hot-potato, when manipulation can be in the realm of all the four judging functions. Ti, Te, Fi, Fe.

    If Fe is fairness, just, and Fi is authenticity, then, each can be manipulated to skew that which is their expertise.

    I really admire those Fi-users who will be authentic come hell or high water. To thine own self, they will be true. The opposite of that, given the same function, is that in other Fi-users it will manipulate that authenticity (present a farce of the authenticity) to gain their own selfish desires. This is where Te becomes crucial. Te impacts outwardly. The Fi-users I admire (4 I can recall from this forum, that my mind is holding as an example, 2 INFPs and 2 ENFPs)....they will hold on to their Fi, not as if it were correct, but, because it is valued by them. And, when questioned, or challenged, they allow for that (no defensiveness, because they are authentic in valuing it...it is truth, let it be scrutinized), and their NeFiTe will ask the other, what their thoughts/feelings are, given the same situation. They give respect that another can have an equally merit-worthy, yet, different internal feeling to the same situation.

    Thus, it is not to defend their Fi, but, to allow themselves the scrutiny of said Fi-value. To believe more deeply. To seek another perspective (Ne), to understand the external impact, efficiency (Te) of holding on to such a value. And, these same Fi-users had, in the past, suppressed their Fi-value, given that their Te got convinced of a negative impact, due to their value. Yet, never will they use their Fi to manipulate. It is either held strong, or, supressed - hence, it retains its authenticity. It doesn't shape-shift.

    Fi is the same like Ti, subjective. Like Ti seeks to find internal logical consistency, Fi seeks to find internal emotional consistency. Ti allows me to be more confident in the logical conclusion I derived, while Fi allows those authentic Fi-wielders to be more confident in the emotional conclusion, value, they derived.

    Te is the same like Fe, objective. Like Fe seeks to find how something can best impact fairness for all involved, Te seeks to find how something can best impact efficiency for all involved. Fe allows for justice to be wielded, so no one gets left behind simply because they weren't subjective valued, while Te allows for efficiency to be wielded, so that all the players involved are used to their best advantage.

    As such, it is easy to see how all these four then can be used for manipulation. Fe, being the expert on fairness, can expertly figure out how to manipulate that fairness to be skewed, while Ti's subjective rationalization of maintaining logical internal consistency, allows this skewed perspective to be still seen/sold as "fair".

    Fi, being an expert on authenticity, can expertly figure out how to manipulate it so that authenticity is skewed, while Te's objective rationalization of how to efficiently impact something, allows this skewed perspective to be seen as still "authentic" to the situation at hand. (<- this was what I originally found to be irksome to me, when I responded to this thread, given Amar's and SS's responses....by george, eureka! :P)

  9. #579
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    I disagree with your first statement. Though Fe is definitely practical, as is Te, Fe is a tool to me. Nothing more. Fi is who I am. That to me is more important than a tool, and therefore gets more priority and more importance.
    Why limit yourself to one function? I'm neither Ne or Ti. I'm me. I have several traits about me that may correspond with certain Jungian archetypes. However, I certainly don't think those archetypes have a thing to do with who I am, they just help others know better how I tick. It's like the highway a couple of miles from here - does "Interstate 95" have any inherent, tangible meaning? Of course not. That strip of pavement is in no literal way "Interstate 95". However, it does help a person understand where that highway goes, in the entire network of strips of pavement known as the "Interstate Highway System".

    And I'm not date-raping anyone. I think part of the problem is that you feel blindsighted by this. Only you and Q have, in this discussion, said that it was not consented. The question is in the approach. I've already given you an example: if a guy tries to sync up with me, his motivation for doing so is quite clear, as doing so tends to reveal a part of who you are, it..provides personal info, kinda like pheromones. If I sense genuine curiosity, and admiration, I will gladly let him sync up with me, respond to his emotional nudge. If I sense that it's a means to an end, I'll smile and refuse to answer his nudge. This all happens without explicitely stating it..but it's still communication. Maybe it's something you don't really pick up on? And that's where this paranoia comes from? You only notice it after someone repeatedly nudged you, or has already gone further in the process without you picking up on it?
    I'm sorry you don't like that characterization, but that's what it is. My perception of it isn't wrong, even if you don't see it that way.

    This only happens to me when I'm thoroughly distracted, or we're playing a game and they're trying to one-up me (in which case they have my permission to do so). And in case of the distraction, I consider myself at fault, I should've been paying attention.
    There are other options to prevent this sort of "mix-up".

    As for 'manipulating'..I tend to 'manipulate' out in the open. I will use a sync up in the process, but my words will state perfectly fine what I want from you.
    No means no.

    All I'm doing is giving you additional feedback, through the sync up, that I am in fact not going to take advantage of you...comfort you, in a sense, show you I'm genuine in my request, coz, as stated before, the sync up reveals more about who I am, and what I am feeling in that moment. If I notice you're not comfortable with a sync up, I'll stop the connection instantly, as I don't want to make you uncomfortable, that's not enjoyable to me either. It's just an additional means of communicating, to me. I consider it a benefit to be able to make people feel at ease with me. It smoothens things out, and it makes me relax as well. It closes that annoying social gap that's there. And some people don't know how to bridge it. I do. So I'm happy to do it for them. And they're more than welcome to tell me 'no'.
    Is this about you or the other person?

  10. #580
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    I guess my question is, why take such turns in the first place? Why play this game? Why put one person in the position of "weakness"/taking, and the other in a position of "strength"/giving?

    Why not give and take because you can and want to give, and the other decides (independently) that they can and want to, take?

    .....not to play out this dynamic of (to me: energy draining) strength/weakness, dominance/submission [read: manipulation]. And repeat. Ad nauseum.

    I guess, I have a hard time boosting someone's ego, worth, by making myself appear "weak". Or ever wanting that from the other. I can't see it as a "flirt".
    Some people are turned on by this dynamic, and can even make them feel emotionally secure. It's just not your way. I think it would be very hard to explain to someone who doesn't "get it" because everyone's sexual and love maps are different.

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